[1.3.1] Interstellar Flight Inc. - Kerbal Life Support Mod Development thread

[theJesuit]

48 minutes ago, linuxgurugamer said:

If I go with having an additional resource, then I actually need to create two new resources. The first would be the waste, for which I'd like get a better name for, and the second would be the advanced waste or Biohazard Waste which would be used by the advanced recycling.

I will then have to create tanks to store these two new resources.

 I'm not against this, as long as it makes reasonable sense. Would like to hear other people's opinions though.

OrganicSlurry and Sludge?

[Synthesis]

On 10/30/2017 at 4:23 PM, linuxgurugamer said:

 

Progress is being made:

I'm adding a number of new parts:  several sizes of greenhouses, some science parts, and some advanced recyclers.

I've been wrestling with the issue of the greenhouses generating life support out of nothing.  I did not want to add another resource, otherwise there would be no need for this because the USI-LS does a very nice job with two resources.

So, this is what I've come up with so far:

As a kerbal uses LS, internally (you never see it), it generates the same amount of waste, byproducts, etc.  So, if a Kerbal is using 1 LS unit a day, then internally it is tracked that there is 1 unit of waste.

There is no storage of this waste.  The waste is used by the Greenhouses, if no greenhouse is available, the waste is just discarded

Greenhouses need this waste to generate the Life Support resource, and can, depending on their size, turn between 50% and 90% of the waste back into the Life Support resource.  This solves the problem of the greenhouses just generating infinite Life Support.  The waste that the greenhouse doesn't use is an advanced form of waste and needs special care to recycle it.

There will be another type of part, I don't have a good name yet, which will be an advanced recycler.  The advanced recycler will only take the advanced waste, and will be able to turn it back into the Life Support resource.

Comments and questions are welcome

I've just realized this, rather stupid, but it appears that in new designs (and not saved ones), the mod does not automatically add life support to the stock life support capsules, etc. Saved designs have it, because the earlier versions of the mod did do this. I really should've realized this sooner. 

First thing first: Is this an existing bug, or did I just install something wrong? 

[linuxgurugamer]

11 minutes ago, Synthesis said:

I've just realized this, rather stupid, but it appears that in new designs (and not saved ones), the mod does not automatically add life support to the stock life support capsules, etc. Saved designs have it, because the earlier versions of the mod did do this. I really should've realized this sooner. 

First thing first: Is this an existing bug, or did I just install something wrong? 

Earlier versions, neaning before I started ?

Maje sure you have ModuleManager installed. It's quite possible that the module manager scripts aren't working properly, I haven't looked at them yet.

 

[Synthesis]

1 minute ago, linuxgurugamer said:

Earlier versions, neaning before I started ?

Maje sure you have ModuleManager installed. It's quite possible that the module manager scripts aren't working properly, I haven't looked at them yet.

 

I just realized I have the earlier version installed. DOH. Thank you though. 

[linuxgurugamer]

On 10/31/2017 at 6:07 PM, theJesuit said:

OrganicSlurry and Sludge?

So, I'm finally able to have some time to get back to this.

Looking for some opinions on these two new resources.  First, to define what these two resources are:

• Organic Slurry is the immediate byproduct of using Life Support
• Sludge will be the left-overs after the Organic Slurry is processed by a Greenhouse.

I'm going to use the resource definition of Water from the Community Resource Pack as a reference:

RESOURCE_DEFINITION
{
	name = Water
	density = 0.0010000000
	hsp = 4183 // specific heat capacity (kJ/tonne-K as units)
	flowMode = ALL_VESSEL
	transfer = PUMP
	unitCost = 0.0008
	color = .5,.5,1
	volume = 1
}

 

The Life Support resource is defined as follows, and I'm not going to change this:

RESOURCE_DEFINITION
{
  name = LifeSupport
  density = 0.0045
  unitCost = 40.0
  flowMode = ALL_VESSEL
  transfer = PUMP
}

I'm pretty sure that this means that the density is 4.5 greater than water.

My feeling is that Organic Slurry will need to take more volume than the LifeSupport.  I'm pretty sure the default of "volume" is 5, but have asked for clarification on the forum.

So, my thought is that LifeSupport is turned into OrganicSlurry on a 1:1 basis, but the needed volume will increase by 20%;  the Sludge will be denser, and will therefore have a higher density and lower volume.  This produces the following, I think:

RESOURCE_DEFINITION
{
  name = LifeSupport
  density = 0.0045
  unitCost = 40.0
  flowMode = ALL_VESSEL
  transfer = PUMP
  isTweakable = true
  volume = 1
}

RESOURCE_DEFINITION
{
  name = OrganicSlurry
  density = 0.00225
  unitCost = 40.0
  flowMode = ALL_VESSEL
  transfer = PUMP
  isTweakable = true
  volume = 1
  isTweakable = true
}
RESOURCE_DEFINITION
{
  name = Sludge
  density = 0.009
  unitCost = 40.0
  flowMode = ALL_VESSEL
  transfer = PUMP
  isTweakable = true
  volume = 1
}

 

Edited November 9, 2017 by linuxgurugamer

[swjr-swis]

1 hour ago, linuxgurugamer said:

My feeling is that Organic Slurry will need to take more volume than the LifeSupport.

Let's reason out the distasteful details, because I think it's the other way around: stuff is not added, it's removed, and the end product is compacted.

• LifeSupport consists basically out of three things: solid, fluid, gas.
• Solid input is (usually) higher than solid output, due to removal of nutrients and a high percentage of the water 'solids' tend to consist of, plus there isn't all that much waste addition. We also shed hair and skin - some ends up as waste, another part is caught in the air filters.
• Fluid input is higher than fluid output - a fair percentage is converted into gas through perspiration and exhalation. We do add some waste to the output of course.
• Gas input is likely the only resource of which the output is clearly higher - we are very efficient air humidifiers, we add a carbon atom to every molecule of oxygen we 'use', and we produce some other gases. I don't know exactly how the output of scrubbers compares to liquid oxygen volume-wise, but there's definitely more atoms going out than coming in. Also not clear on what is done with water condensation from the craft atmosphere system - if not recycled, this would add to the waste/output too.

Considering that water recycling is likely a big part of making a space craft/station viable for any serious length of time, I think it's fair to take water out of the equation to simplify things. In which case, we are mostly transforming voluminous hydrated solids into compacted dehydrated solids, and a lot of extra gases. Gases are dealt with through the air filtering systems, so the only end product to be dealt with, here called Organic Slurry, has to be of less volume than the input.

Is my thinking wrong?

[linuxgurugamer]

1 minute ago, swjr-swis said:

Is my thinking wrong?

In one respect:  the LifeSupport resource is more than just solids;  it is an abstract resource which encompasses everything other than EC:  O2, CO2, Food, Waste, etc.  So when you combine them all, you end up with more volume than beforehand.

 

3 minutes ago, swjr-swis said:

Considering that water recycling is likely a big part of making a space craft/station viable for any serious length of time, I think it's fair to take water out of the equation to simplify things. In which case, we are mostly transforming voluminous hydrated solids into compacted dehydrated solids, and a lot of extra gases. Gases are dealt with through the air filtering systems, so the only end product to be dealt with, here called Organic Slurry, has to be of less volume than the input.

 

Well, this IS part of LifeSupport

[linuxgurugamer]

My goal here is to allow the player to be able to create a closed loop, but that it can't be easy.  It should be easier to have a partial loop, where resources can be extended, but again, it can't be too easy.

[theJesuit]

@swjr-swis I think the deal with IFILS (for its simplicity) that the LifeSupport resource is supposed to contain ALL gases liquids and solids?.  It is a catchall resource where mass was considered based on the wiki referenced in the OP, but not necessarily volume when it was developed.  I could be mistaken.

@linuxgurugamer  Why not make the non-closed loop like such:

LifeSupport -> OrganicSlurry at 1 -> 1 ratio ( then use same density and mass as combined CO2 liquid and solid waste, .assumes no loss for energy spent from kerbal, or else a ratio of 1 -> .98 as a magical number for heat waste)

Then to convert back using greenhouse,

OrganicSlurry -> Life Support + Sludge at 1 -> .9 + .1 (Sludge uses same density, but it is only able to be used if collected)

 

End of tech tree devices:

OrganicSlurry + Sludge -> Life Support at .1 +.9 -> 1 (equating to .1 -> .1 to close the loop)  same device could use Ore as well to convert?

Then adjust the ratios as your research suggests and add EC

 

[linuxgurugamer]

I guess the volume of the slurry doesn't really matter, I was thinking of requiring larger tanks/storage for the slurry.

[linuxgurugamer]

Just a quick status update:

The mod now creates OrganicSlurry as the Kerbal(s) use the Lifesupport

and the one greenhouse I'm working with now uses the OrganicSlurry to generate LifeSupport and Sludge.

 

[linuxgurugamer]

More progress, I now have a complete resource cycle:

 

Edited November 11, 2017 by linuxgurugamer

[jlcarneiro]

Thanks for reviving this!

I assume "Normal" difficulty (settings page) means 1 unit per Kerbal per Kerbal day (6h). What do the other levels mean?

[linuxgurugamer]

On 11/12/2017 at 12:57 AM, jlcarneiro said:

Thanks for reviving this!

I assume "Normal" difficulty (settings page) means 1 unit per Kerbal per Kerbal day (6h). What do the other levels mean?

When completed, the basic difficulty settings will control things like:

• LS rate per day
• Breathable Atmo pressure (min allowed)
• LS Rate adjustment when on homeworld
• LS Rate adjustment when on another planet with O2
• LS Rate adjustment when out of EC

 

 

[flart]

TAC LS has 6 stored resources, and you need stare at bars simultaneously goes up and down.

USI LS still has stored Mulch and Fertilizer shows up at resource manager.

Did I understand correctly, what it still has sludge as output and input at parts info module in VAB, but doesn't allow to store it and doesn't show resource bars other that LS?

Edited November 13, 2017 by flart

[jlcarneiro]

6 hours ago, linuxgurugamer said:

When completed, the basic difficulty settings will control things like:

• LS rate per day
• Breathable Atmo pressure (min allowed)
• LS Rate adjustment when on homeworld
• LS Rate adjustment when on another planet with O2
• LS Rate adjustment when out of EC

Great, thanks!

What does it do (what is already implemented) at this time?

[linuxgurugamer]

2 hours ago, flart said:

TAC LS has 6 stored resources, and you need stare at bars simultaneously goes up and down.

USI LS still has stored Mulch and Fertilizer shows up at resource manager.

Did I understand correctly, what it still has sludge as output and input at parts info module in VAB, but doesn't allow to store it and doesn't show resource bars other that LS?

pretty much.  The tanks will show capacity, and you will be able to use the in/out buttons to move it around, but that's it.

[linuxgurugamer]

On 11/13/2017 at 2:34 PM, linuxgurugamer said:

pretty much.  The tanks will show capacity, and you will be able to use the in/out buttons to move it around, but that's it.

There will be resource bars shown for the sludge and slurry

[Waxing_Kibbous]

I'm not sure about the particulars, but I think this should be rebranded as IFILS was originally designed to be a super simple LS with only one resource, that was the beauty of it. IMO the simplest IFILS-friendly way would be to have only supplies and waste, and waste only matters if a greenhouse is in use. Adding more resources is fine but then it ceases to be Stavell's IFILS  and becomes a different animal altogether.

[linuxgurugamer]

55 minutes ago, Waxing_Kibbous said:

I'm not sure about the particulars, but I think this should be rebranded as IFILS was originally designed to be a super simple LS with only one resource, that was the beauty of it. IMO the simplest IFILS-friendly way would be to have only supplies and waste, and waste only matters if a greenhouse is in use. Adding more resources is fine but then it ceases to be Stavell's IFILS  and becomes a different animal altogether.

Look at the chart I posted today in the OP.

The original functionality is unchanged, and the added stuff can be ignored.  I am enhancing it.  The two additional resources are there for ease of management.  I could probably hide them, but then would get complaints about hidden resources

 

[linuxgurugamer]

8 hours ago, Waxing_Kibbous said:

I'm not sure about the particulars, but I think this should be rebranded as IFILS was originally designed to be a super simple LS with only one resource, that was the beauty of it. IMO the simplest IFILS-friendly way would be to have only supplies and waste, and waste only matters if a greenhouse is in use. Adding more resources is fine but then it ceases to be Stavell's IFILS  and becomes a different animal altogether.

When released, it will be and an updated name, probably something like IFI Enhanced or something like that

[Waxing_Kibbous]

Thanks, I tried to be as respectful as possible but not sounding like a critical troll on a forum is hard good to hear that many complexities will be optional, I appreciate your work.

[linuxgurugamer]

2 hours ago, Waxing_Kibbous said:

Thanks, I tried to be as respectful as possible but not sounding like a critical troll on a forum is hard good to hear that many complexities will be optional, I appreciate your work.

If you think about it, even USI-LS is very simple, if you ignore the recycling part.  All you need is the life support resource, enough for the mission.

[flart]

On 18.11.2017 at 4:10 PM, linuxgurugamer said:

There will be resource bars shown for the sludge and slurry

then I don't get how it simpler then USILS.

USILS has mulch and fertilizer, IFILS has 2 kind of Mulch: sludge and slurry. Different resource tree, but still 3 resources. (and constant reminder from beginning of game at top-right resource panel what there is also sludge and slurry). May be hide them into mod's panel, and show at resource panel just LS?

[JadeOfMaar]

12 minutes ago, flart said:

then I don't get how it simpler then USILS.

USILS has mulch and fertilizer, IFILS has 2 kind of Mulch: sludge and slurry. Different resource tree, but still 3 resources. (and constant reminder from beginning of game at top-right resource panel what there is also sludge and slurry). May be hide them into mod's panel, and show at resource panel just LS?

linux is already working on keeping this mod as simple as it's known for, but to provide for complexity if anyone wants it. Slurry, I think, already intends to be a hidden resource.