On an extremely serious note, do not remain silent!

[smotheredrun]

This is quite long.

Pre-Preface Edit: Per some discussion with another user via PM, some wording has been changed, slightly, for clarity.

Preface:  Moderators, if this is deemed to be inappropriate, please close and let me know.  However, based upon many of the stories I've recently been told by many individuals I've known and remained in contact with, I feel this is A) the best/least bad place to put this topic, B) a good time to at least have some kind of acknowledgement to what is happening in the Real World, and C) it doesn't look like it violates any forum rules that I can tell.  At the very least, if this proves to be too much of a hot button, please lock the thread, but allow users to read this.  Thank you.

Users:  Keep it polite, please.  Also, I realize that this may end up opening a colossal can of worms and uncovering quite a few rabbit holes.  Please remember to keep politics or anything similar out of this.  If anything, this is essentially an editorial or Op-Ed piece.  To me, the world is made up of many forms of grey, but this is a simple black and white topic:

 

By now many of you have probably had your facebook and twitter feeds bombarded with posts bearing the MeToo hashtag.  As these stories from many people I know or have known over the years fly through my feed, I have been consistently shocked by what I'm reading.  Coupled with what I've seen from time to time over the last 25 years, and you can get the sense of how truly wide spread the absolute horror is.  SPEAK UP.

I'll start with the basic stuff:  I'm a male, in my mid thirties, have a wife and a daughter.  I wear 2 hats, well one hard hat and one set of headphones.  In both of my professions, I treat everyone I work with or for like adults - I'm direct, to the point, diplomatic when needed, but I don't pull punches.  I expect to be treated and spoken to like an adult by those I work with or for, and drunk idiots aside, for the most part I am.  I'll therefore speak to all of you like adults here:

I've been a carpenter for 10 years.  I have, upon reflection spurred on by these stories, seen a handful of instances where the few women whom are in the trades are subjected to this BS.  In each of those cases, for a variety of facts/circumstances/terrible excuses, I was unable to do anything to prevent or intervene.  Now, in each of those situations, I realize I should have at least tried something to intervene.  SPEAK UP.

I've been a mobile DJ for almost 20 years.  Again, until literally last week, I could only think of one situation of clear attempted sexual assault.  Fortunately, being the DJ at that particular wedding (having the power of not playing the song the despicable man wanted me to play in order (according to him) for him to try to court the much much younger woman and assault her further), and working with other professionals at that wedding (bartenders, caterers, wedding planner, whom all were witnesses) and having the bride and grooms' families both witness it, the matter was quickly resolved.  From what I've heard, the man has been ostrisized from his family.  Now, upon further reflection, again spurred on by the stories I see scrolling across my Facebook feed (no twitter for this guy), I see several more instances where I should have done something.  SPEAK UP.  Whether it was a coworker at the bar where I first started DJing being groped by patrons - I had a microphone to call them out and have them removed.  I didn't.  I was too new.  Too shy on the mic.  Didn't know the bar's policies on harassment - it was the early 2000s... they didn't have one.  SPEAK UP.

Or one of the many times I've seen a girl at their high school prom or woman at her university grad all dressed up, getting chased by that guy who think she likes him because she once let him borrow her notes.  Ah... boys will be boys right?  NO!  SPEAK UP.  

Or any of the times I didn't see something, and therefore didn't realize something had happened.

I have lost friends due to this kind of terrible behaviour - as in, I have confronted a couple friends about what they were doing to someone.  "Oh, it's ok, I'm from 'x' place, we do this all the time.  It's normal."  NO!  "Oh, it's ok, she wanted it." NO!  "Oh, it's ok, we're at the bar.  Everyone does it." NO!   Fairly certain at least one of them is no longer allowed anywhere near any of their own family's events.

It is absolutely infuriating that as parents and educators we have to teach our daughters and sisters "How not to get assaulted" "How not to get violated" or "Ways to find out if he slipped something into my drink".  Instead, we should be teaching everyone, our sons, brothers, daughters, and sisters, "No means bloody 'NO!'" "Don't grab/grope."  "Don't harass." "Don't rope." "There is NO EXCUSE"

Instead, we need to be teaching them "Do SPEAK UP!"

 

Thanks for reading.  It took a very long time to write this. And it's late here.  And I have to be awake again in less than 4 hours.  And I'll spend most of those less than 4 hours watching my kid as she sleeps.

And it was necessary.  So damn bloody necessary.

SPEAK UP!!

Edited October 19, 2017 by smotheredrun
typos. clarifications.

[Chel]

Wow. I have a feeling right now of saying something, of trying to contradict you or something, but due to the nature of this article I think I shouldn't say anything.

[p1t1o]

Well said, no discussion required.

It IS  a weird place to put it...but then where isnt...the whole point is dont keep sweeping it under the rug: "Oh I dont know where to say/post this...."

Copy + Paste same statement for racism.

Speaking up is not always a simple matter, but a lot of times, it really is.

***

Discussion may well spark argument, inevitably, but if the mods lock it, at least its here to be seen.

***

#metoo 

It happened to me. It was not serious but by god it was eye opening. The psychological injury is orders of magnitude worse than the physical assault. And men, if you think you can shrug it off, you cant. Luckily mine was minor, I cannot fathom what happens in the mind of victims of more serious events.

[Shpaget]

I guess I can think of only one situation I witnessed that could have gone somewhat south.

I was with some friends at the night club and we were already leaving and standing outside when some guy that wasn't part of our group approached a girl from my class that got a bit separated and was alone at that moment some 15-20 meters away. She stood about 5 meters from the night club bouncer that just stood there by the entrance. The girl was retreating from the guy and clearly wasn't interested in whatever he was telling her, but he wasn't letting her go. I watched for about 5 seconds to make sure what the situation was and approached them. Asking the girl "Everything OK?" and standing close to her while watching the guy was enough for him to get lost. I guess being a head taller than him (or more) was intimidating.

While I don't think he would have assaulted her, she clearly was uncomfortable. I still don't know why the bouncer didn't intervene when he had the entire situation going on in front of him and was not otherwise occupied.

Thinking back to that moment, there are many aspects to it. First of all, I knew the girl and knew that the guy was not part of our group, so it was likely she didn't know him.

If that was some random girl, would I have done the same? I don't know. In that case I wouldn't know if they knew each other, even though I could possibly have seen the girl wasn't interested. The bystander effect is a real thing.

[NSEP]

Im against, and of course (i hope) everyone else here is against sexual assault. Just dont make it so Hi, you are looking good today! will be considered sexual assault in the future. Thanks, and bye.

[regex]

1 hour ago, NSEP said:

Just dont make it so Hi, you are looking good today! will be considered sexual assault in the future.

I'm guessing based on your ... frankly overblown concern about such a thing, but why would you have a problem with rethinking your approach if such a greeting were to be construed as sexual harassment, or even assault, in the future? I'm sure there are plenty of ways, some undoubtedly better than implying that the person you are greeting is there for your viewing pleasure, of introducing yourself and your desire to get to know this person better.

[NSEP]

21 minutes ago, regex said:

frankly overblown concern about such a thing,

Its already happending pal, its already happending. I have heard stories, here and there about it. Im not sure if im getting a bit too paranoid (i probably am). Im not super concerned about it, either.

21 minutes ago, regex said:

why would you have a problem with rethinking your approach if such a greeting were to be construed as sexual harassment, or even assault, in the future? I'm sure there are plenty of ways, some undoubtedly better than implying that the person you are greeting is there for your viewing pleasure, of introducing yourself and your desire to get to know this person better.

Because when you are looking good today is bad, we are already near the everything is harassment border. My concern is not that its harder to talk to people, but its because people are slowly getting sensitive and concerned about thing aren't problems at all. Yes, i am paranoid of paranoid people.

Don't get me wrong, im not saying the examples shown above aren't REAL sexual harassment. If it involves injury and trauma, its something to definitely be against, and to be concerned about.

 

Edited October 18, 2017 by NSEP

[Atubara]

So is this a place for neglect/abuse discussion for consultation? If so I feel like a goldmine from my "childhood"

[regex]

Just now, NSEP said:

because people are slowly getting sensitive and concerned about thing aren't problems at all.

If someone is feeling sensitive and concerned about something then they're obviously finding it problematic. Should we simply dismiss things that others find problematic? Who determines whether something is problematic? What constitutes "too sensitive" or "too concerned", where's that line?

It sounds like for you that line is when you can't approach someone you're interested in and focus solely on the way they look on a given day. You can't think of a better approach than to focus on the way someone looks?

[Vanamonde]

If we get into what we did, didn't do, should have, or shouldn't have done as individuals, this thread will quickly go bad. OP's purpose seems to be to raise awareness rather than try to come to a solution ourselves, so please keep the discussions away from the personal. 

[WinkAllKerb'']

"let's just blame our ancestors & a large part their weird habits over ages and centuries & what they taught us, wich include a large part of thoose weird habits over centuries [then insert internet, let simmer 5 or 6 generations or so or more or less]"

in/out

Edited October 18, 2017 by WinkAllKerb''

[StrandedonEarth]

7 hours ago, NSEP said:

Im against, and of course (i hope) everyone else here is against sexual assault. Just dont make it so Hi, you are looking good today! will be considered sexual assault in the future. Thanks, and bye.

Be aware that if you're saying that to someone you see regularly, then you're implying that they didn't look good yesterday, which may get a bad reaction. If you're trying that on a stranger, you're better off commenting on their (presumably gorgeous) eyes or hair. Then they won't think you're looking somewhere else. 

As to the OP, will take you're advice  to SPEAK UP!  My naive twenty year old daughter just suddenly moved out 2 weeks ago (a crazy thing to do when you have it made living at home, but she didn't like our restrictions and expectations), and I'd like to think someone will SPEAK UP for her if she finds herself in an uncomfortable or unsafe situation. 

Edited October 19, 2017 by StrandedonEarth

[Chel]

8 hours ago, NSEP said:

Hi, you are looking good today! will be considered sexual assault

Exactly. A mailman was accused for sexual assault just for being outside a woman's house everyday (to deliver the mail). [snip] Sure we need gender equality, like for women to vote or be able to have the same jobs as men (like construction or train driving), but not that much 'equality' as changing the pedestrian lights in Melbourne because someone felt 'oppressed' by the image which was apparently male (it was just a round head with a body. no facial or hair features, nothing, just like a stick figure).

And a forum about a video game has now turned into a discussion about a topic that people can go on for hours over.

Edited October 19, 2017 by Vanamonde

[Vanamonde]

Some edits done. Keep it polite, please. Slurs toward different groups, even when cited as examples, can still make others feel unwelcome on our forum, which we want to avoid. 

[smotheredrun]

So... Rabbit, meet Hole.  Kinda had a thought this thread may head that way.  

@Vanamonde must also be a Carpenter or something.  Nail head, meet Hammer:

5 hours ago, Vanamonde said:

If we get into what we did, didn't do, should have, or shouldn't have done as individuals, this thread will quickly go bad. OP's purpose seems to be to raise awareness rather than try to come to a solution ourselves, so please keep the discussions away from the personal. 

 

Also this:

42 minutes ago, The_Cat_In_Space said:

And a forum about a video game has now turned into a discussion about a topic that people can go on for hours over.

Hence posting in the Lounge area.  And yes, this is a forum for a video game, so this may end up being problematic.  I hope not.

 

Per some suggestion from another user via PM, I did reread my OP to attempt to clarify some wording.  That is complete, for now.  

Not intending this as a place to share stories of woulda coulda shoulda.  More like an awareness post.  

 

Edited October 19, 2017 by smotheredrun
Forgot about half of a sentence

[stibbons]

1 hour ago, The_Cat_In_Space said:

A mailman was accused for sexual assault just for being outside a woman's house everyday (to deliver the mail).

Citation needed.

[kerbiloid]

10 hours ago, NSEP said:

Hi, you are looking good today! will be considered sexual assault in the future.

First ask: "May I, please, give you a compliment, ma'am"?

(Of course, not "pay a compliment").

3 hours ago, StrandedonEarth said:

Be aware that if you're saying that to someone you see regularly, then you're implying that they didn't look good yesterday, which may get a bad reaction.

In the morning after a party this compliment can enhance the effect in either direction.

2 hours ago, The_Cat_In_Space said:

A mailman was accused for sexual assault just for being outside a woman's house everyday (to deliver the mail).

A side effect of glass doors. Otherwise how could she know.

Edited October 19, 2017 by kerbiloid

[Chel]

2 hours ago, stibbons said:

Citation needed.

And here you have it:

[snip]

[stibbons]

Well that spoke for itself. 

[Vanamonde]

Okay, something odd does happen in the video. Unfortunately, the title is somewhat slanted, and this is the kind of thing which we were hoping this thread would stay away from, so the link has been removed. 

Seriously, folks. Don't get into personal anecdotes, various accusations from the internet about which we here really know nothing, and disputing what the subject of the situation should or shouldn't consider harassment, or we will have to lock the thread. 

[Chel]

5 minutes ago, Vanamonde said:

Okay, something odd does happen in the video. Unfortunately, the title is somewhat slanted, and this is the kind of thing which we were hoping this thread would stay away from, so the link has been removed. 

Seriously, folks. Don't get into personal anecdotes, various accusations from the internet about which we here really know nothing, and disputing what the subject of the situation should or shouldn't consider harassment, or we will have to lock the thread. 

I understand. When discussions like these are created, things can go from a simple chat to abuse or harassment, blaming, and everything else associated with internet flamewars.

[NSEP]

12 hours ago, regex said:

If someone is feeling sensitive and concerned about something then they're obviously finding it problematic. Should we simply dismiss things that others find problematic? Who determines whether something is problematic? What constitutes "too sensitive" or "too concerned", where's that line?

If something does not include injury, or a trauma, your already crossing the line. If, it is something that does not necessarily induce injury, trauma or extreme uncomfort its easy to take back action or just to ignore, just don't brag if its not going Im not concerned about an individual neither, but about society in general, caring too much about little problems and about themselves while the world is burning. In summary: if it wont leave a mark, its no big deal, it can be worse. And again, not my biggest concern, i have much biggers concerns and they are not about myself or this topic in general.

12 hours ago, regex said:

It sounds like for you that line is when you can't approach someone you're interested in and focus solely on the way they look on a given day. You can't think of a better approach than to focus on the way someone looks?

Sure i can! That was not exactly what i meant though, i was saying just saying to not turn compliments into harassment. Sorry for being unclear.

 

I don't want anything to do with this discussion anymore. 

Edited October 19, 2017 by NSEP
Just get me out already damnit!

[p1t1o]

And I heard a story once about a man who had his house burned down because his neighbours found out that he was a ped...iatrician.

But that doesnt mean the whole world has gone crazy.

And neither does this.

The whole POINT is that there are people being traumatised by acts and behaviour that "we" have ALWAYS thought is "totally cool, because we're jus' joshin' about!" but in fact were very hurtful. Not wishy-washy "waah my feelings!" hurt, but really, seriously hurt.

Its not because suddenly millenials cant take a compliment, this has ALWAYS been happening, its just that with todays interconnected world, people feel more comfortable bringing it up, people feel able to be heard, which is a good thing, because the opposite has been enabling predators for a very long time.

There will always be people ready to make a stupid scene for attention, and they have always been around too.

Its not going to ruin the world for people to be more aware of their actions, and vigilant for others. People will use their own judgement, no comment or poster or statement is going to MAKE someone suddenly call out everything as a sexual assault or harassment, those types of people are already that way.

***

On a lighter note, I would have loved to see the looks on the moderators faces when they saw this thread pop up

 

Edited October 19, 2017 by p1t1o

[regex]

5 hours ago, NSEP said:

If something does not include injury, or a trauma, your already crossing the line.

Going back to your original example of giving a compliment to someone based on the way they look, it can be contentious not because of immediate trauma or discomfort but because of built up trauma or discomfort. If the only thing someone ever gets complimented on is the way they look, something that is based entirely on genetic rolls of the dice rather than personal accomplishment, that can have a negative effect on their self worth and what you think is a compliment can come off as offensive.

Quote

about society in general, caring too much about little problems and about themselves while the world is burning.

I suppose it's a matter of outlook but for me finding compassion and understanding for my fellow human beings makes "the world burning" a bigger deal. The lack of compassion and understanding in the world (which has really always been there) is a big part of "the world burning" to me.

Quote

In summary: if it wont leave a mark, its no big deal, it can be worse.

Yeah, just remember that tiny marks do exist and they add up on a person. Which was really the point: Do you value this person only for how they look? Looks are a very biological response but they aren't the measure of a person, and if your only intention is to give a compliment maybe there's a better place to start than their genetic luck.

Quote

That was not exactly what i meant though, i was saying just saying to not turn compliments into harassment. Sorry for being unclear.

No, you were quite clear, maybe I haven't been. 

Quote

I don't want anything to do with this discussion anymore. 

It's a tough one to have, for sure. Sometimes you can feel attacked for stating a concern when someone is really trying to show you a different perspective.

I think we need to start listening to people better. As I understand it women have experienced general disbelief or indifference to their stories of sexual assault, learning that nothing usually gets done about it, while men feel like they'd be ostracized by their peers upon reporting something. Maybe if we believed them first and took the matter seriously, and did something about it, we wouldn't be in this place.

Edited October 19, 2017 by regex

[NSEP]

30 minutes ago, regex said:

It's a tough one to have, for sure. Sometimes you can feel attacked for stating a concern when someone is really trying to show you a different perspective.

I would not say i feel i attacked, that is an overstatement in my opinion. I feel like im wasting my time pondering for hours about these things. Sometimes i just cant sleep just because of these things, and i am in no way saying its your fault, though.