Updated Terms Notice & Privacy Policy

[Derb]

Just now, severedsolo said:

Actually you asked why people thought that if the mods were hosted on the forum why we think the EULA would trump the license. That was the basis of my replies to you. Sorry if there were any crossed wires there.

I've already said a couple of times I agree with you on the 3rd Party Host stuff (which is why I backed off from the "Oh my god we are all doomed!" scenario back on page 4 or 5)

That was half of my post, which I was hoping to use rhetorically with another poster. I saw that you agreed with me a few pages back and was super confused why you seemed to flip to needing clarification re: forum post/mod ownership. I guess you were thinking in terms of my hypothetical while I was screaming back "what does it matter, they aren't hosted here anyway!"

[severedsolo]

9 minutes ago, Derb said:

I guess you were thinking in terms of my hypothetical while I was screaming back "what does it matter, they aren't hosted here anyway!"

Misunderstandings? On the internet? Never!

Anyway, yeah that makes much more sense now.

[PiezPiedPy]

A legal notice to Take-Two Interactive Software, Inc.

Per the original agreement I entered into when I purchased the game, you do not have the right to make unilateral changes and/or to terminate the license for any reason other than my non-compliance. I do not consent to these changes now and/or at any other time regardless of any assumed acceptance of the new license, I will continue to operate under the original license.

[Cortwade]

?

[Gaarst]

That is not how it works; per the old EULA that you accepted:

Quote

20. MODIFICATIONS.
DEPORTED has the right to modify this license agreement and impose and modify new or additional terms and conditions regarding the use of the Licensed Application at any time. All new and/or modified terms and/or conditions will be effective ten (10) days after publication through the Licensed Application or on WWW.KERBALSPACEPROGRAM.COM. Within five (5) days following the publishing of the modifications and/or additions to the license agreement, the user must inform DEPORTED via e-mail, regarding its non-acceptance of the modifications or additions. Once the five (5) day period has elapsed, your continued use of the Licensed Application will be deemed as the express acceptance of the new or modified terms or conditions. Therefore, if you do not accept the new terms and conditions you must immediately stop using the Licensed Application.

 

[stibbons]

1 hour ago, PiezPiedPy said:

Per the original agreement I entered into when I purchased the game, you do not have the right to make unilateral changes and/or to terminate the license for any reason other than my non-compliance.

Per which part of the original agreement, precisely? 

[PiezPiedPy]

@Gaarst I'm assuming DEPORTED means Take2 ?

If so I'm done with KSP and no more contributions to Trajectories from me

I wont give Take2 any option to steal and make money if they wish from my many hours of work which was free for KSP fans only.

[magnemoe]

2 hours ago, theonegalen said:

That goes back to "created through the Software." I use PartTools for every cockpit I make. I do configs and textures for individual gauges in Notepad++ and paint.net, but all the props are placed with PartTools. So the question I'm trying to get clarification on is whether or not that means that everything I make through hours and hours and days and weeks and months of work just belongs to TT now.

I think this is pretty much the same as the creation kit for Skyrim and fallout. Developer reserve all rights to anything made with their tools. You would still own the 3d models and other stuff you made. This is pretty much to cover their bases. Even more than in Skyrim as something like real solar system might be an dlc idea and it would be very like the RSS mod for obvious reasons. 

Note that stuff like cars and guns tend to require licencing. it has been known that car manufacturers has disliked their cars taking damage or kill you in racing games, that is even if car is pretty much build like an tank as in rear ending an parked truck in 80 km/h will cause problems as in damaged radiator an damage to front wheels
You might get an cease and dismiss letter from an gun manufacturer for having the bad guys using their guns. 
For guns its pretty easy, just change  the name a bit for cars its a bit harder You have no issues using an mp6 machine pistol but an feararir is a bit weird
 

[klesh]

4 minutes ago, PiezPiedPy said:

@Gaarst I'm assuming DEPORTED means Take2 ?

 

 

Deported BV was some weird shell company Squad made in the Netherlands, presumably to skirt paying taxes in Mexico.

 

 

[PiezPiedPy]

@klesh Thanks for that

 

@Gaarst So Take2 are not DEPORTED and so have no right to change the original EULA/TOS

[HebaruSan]

Just now, PiezPiedPy said:

 

@Gaarst So Take2 are not DEPORTED and so have no right to change the original EULA/TOS

DEPORTED sold that right. Guess who they sold it to?

[klesh]

Just now, HebaruSan said:

Guess who they sold it to?

 

I will guess Yogi Berra?

[PiezPiedPy]

@HebaruSan But my contract was with Deported not Take2, contracts can not be changed by a new owner unless all parties agree. As far as I am aware.

Edited March 5, 2018 by PiezPiedPy

[DAL59]

13 hours ago, severedsolo said:

I've been thinking about this for the last week, and I've come to a decision.

While I still don't like the wording, I agree with many of the points made that mods hosted on 3rd party websites (github etc) probably can't be held to the TOS.

Add to that the fact that Squad/T2 don't seem to be able to make up their minds whether we need to agree to the TOS to play the game, or just access our online accounts (on here it says the latter, on Steam the former) - I don't think it would stand up in court if it ever came to it. - I have no problem with the EULA, actually it's pretty clear, which makes the TOS even worse.

So, I will still be switching to an ARR license today on all my mods just in case but I see no reason to leave.

@SQUAD I will say this though: Your handling of this has been ATROCIOUS. To that end, you've lost a customer for any future DLC (including making history) . A really simple "hey it's ok we just need that to serve the forums" would have gone a really long way (and seriously, I do know that is the reason for the clause I pointed out in the TOS, but thats not what it says)

Its out of Squad's control, they were aquired by T2.  However, I agree that a statement would be nice.

[HebaruSan]

44 minutes ago, PiezPiedPy said:

@HebaruSan But my contract was with Deported not Take2, contracts can not be changed by a new owner unless all parties agree. As far as I am aware.

If that was how it worked, then

1. You would have no valid license for KSP right now; and
2. Sales of intellectual property like KSP would not be feasible

But ultimately we're not the ones to convince. If you're confident that you're on solid legal ground, I encourage you to hire a lawyer, sue Take 2, and convince the judge in your case. I thought I've heard that the finer points of EULAs have not been tested in court, and it would be great to get some real case law on them (especially if it turned out to be pro-consumer).

(I am not at all a lawyer, and this is not legal advice.)

Edited March 5, 2018 by HebaruSan

[PiezPiedPy]

 

 

29 minutes ago, HebaruSan said:

If that was how it worked, then

1. You would have no valid license for KSP right now; and
2. Sales of intellectual property like KSP would not be feasible

But ultimately we're not the ones to convince. if you're confident that you're on solid legal ground, I encourage you to hire a lawyer, sue Take 2, and convince the judge in your case. I thought I've heard that the finer points of EULAs have not been tested in court, and it would be great to get some real case law on them (especially if it turned out to be pro-consumer).

(I am not at all a lawyer, and this is not legal advice.)

Well until Take2 try to steal my code I wont be taking them to court. And since I wont be accepting the new License and I have explicit terms in the Trajectories License stating not for commercial gain use etc. I'll most certainly win in a court battle.

[Gaarst]

54 minutes ago, PiezPiedPy said:

 

@Gaarst So Take2 are not DEPORTED and so have no right to change the original EULA/TOS

The EULAs you accepted are the EULAs that apply to KSP. It doesn't matter who wrote them, as long as DEPORTED recognises them (which they did by saying they will apply to KSP) they are the EULA that apply to KSP and that you have to accept not only to play future versions of KSP (for which the new EULA will be the only applicable) but also older versions previously covered by the old EULA (as my earlier quote specified).

They give you the right to disagree with the new EULA but that means stopping using any version of KSP (at least that's how I understand it).

 

Make no mistake these EULA are extremely restrictive, but so were the old ones and so are those of any other game: they exist to make sure that the publisher/developer cannot lose a case (because of a legitimate problem, ie: hacking, copyright theft... not because people make mods) because of a grey spot, hence why they are so explicit. In practice, they are rarely enforced clause by clause and just there as a safeguard.

To my knowledge GTAV was the only case where modders were sent a C&D by the publisher, but the case is very different to that of KSP. To prevent mods from interfering with microtransactions, developers implement DRM or straight up forbid modding before the game is released; developers of KSP have ensured that the game is as open to modding as possible and implemented several features specifically designed to make modders' lives easier. Backing down on that would be impossible without major rewrites of the code (you might as well make a whole new game intended to restrict modding from the start, but that's another story).

As for stealing content, it's already seen as a terrible practice pretty much anywhere you look, from academic publishing to art, programming included. By stealing a mod or an original story T2 might save a couple tens of thousands on artists/programmers but they will be losing many times more on PR. And that is without going into the legal nightmare that would be justifying that simply linking a mod hosted on a third-party website would give T2 exclusive rights on it. Same as forbidding mods, they can do it and it would be very evil to do it but there's little if any profit to it (not even EA which is Satan™ Corp. according to Reddit does this).

I like mods (if I wasn't I wouldn't be maintaining a list of >1000 of them) and seeing some modders willing to abandon theirs because they happen to have read T&Cs for the first time is saddening.

Edited March 5, 2018 by Gaarst

[AVaughan]

13 hours ago, severedsolo said:

I've been thinking about this for the last week, and I've come to a decision.

While I still don't like the wording, I agree with many of the points made that mods hosted on 3rd party websites (github etc) probably can't be held to the TOS.

Add to that the fact that Squad/T2 don't seem to be able to make up their minds whether we need to agree to the TOS to play the game, or just access our online accounts (on here it says the latter, on Steam the former) - I don't think it would stand up in court if it ever came to it. - I have no problem with the EULA, actually it's pretty clear, which makes the TOS even worse.

So, I will still be switching to an ARR license today on all my mods just in case but I see no reason to leave.

@SQUAD I will say this though: Your handling of this has been ATROCIOUS. To that end, you've lost a customer for any future DLC (including making history) . A really simple "hey it's ok we just need that to serve the forums" would have gone a really long way (and seriously, I do know that is the reason for the clause I pointed out in the TOS, but thats not what it says)

In short: not the end of the world, but Squad: your handling of this sucks.

This is a legal matter.  Squad really shouldn't make any official statement without getting that statement cleared by the relevant legal department.  And T2's legal department would have most likely told them not to comment, because any official comment could potentially undermine the EULA, if it ever came to court.  For the same reason I didn't expect T2's management or legal department to comment.  So probably the only comment Squad could have made is something equivalent to "This is the new EULA.  We have been told not to comment further."  Would that have actually helped?  (Personally I think a non-comment like that would just have inflamed the discussion).

 

[PiezPiedPy]

The only part of the new EULA that I have a problem with is this part:

Quote

(from new EULA): "USER CREATED CONTENT: (...) you hereby grant Licensor an exclusive, perpetual, irrevocable, fully transferable, and sub-licensable worldwide right and license to use your contributions in any way and for any purpose in connection with the Software and related goods and services, including, but not limited to, the rights to reproduce, copy, adapt, modify, perform, display, publish, broadcast, transmit, or otherwise communicate to the public by any means whether now known or unknown and distribute your contributions without any further notice or compensation to you of any kind for the whole duration of protection granted to intellectual property rights by applicable laws and international conventions(...)"

Seems over the top and gives all rights to Take2 to do whatever they like with modders code including selling it and telling the original authors to suck eggs. The original EULA stated that the modders owned the rights to their own code, why Take2 feel they have to change that statement concerns me, Take2 have not taken a great step for the modding community but more a leap into a pit of dog shi.

[HebaruSan]

Quote

And since I wont be accepting the new License and

Just to be clear, that means quitting KSP completely, including older versions. The old EULA that you agreed to requires you to agree to the new EULA or stop using the product, if the above quotes are accurate.

Quote

I have explicit terms in the Trajectories License stating not for commercial gain use etc. I'll most certainly win in a court battle.

If you and the other owners of Trajectories retain your ownership under the new EULA. If it in fact legally compels you to cede that ownership to Take 2, then that license would be thrown out in court, because only the owner can specify a license. (Take 2 would presumably choose All Right Reserved.)

EDIT: They're only compelling "worldwide right and license to use", not transfer of ownership, as per @stibbons's quotation below. You still own not just mods, but even missions you create in the DLC. Interesting.

I think that means that you can license your missions how you please, and the terms of those licenses still apply, except that if the new EULA is ruled valid, then Take 2 enjoys an additional unrelated license to that same work. (And also per the very informative post below by @stibbons, the EULA may only be talking about in-game creations, to the exclusion of mods.)

54 minutes ago, PiezPiedPy said:

Well until Take2 try to steal my code I wont be taking them to court.

For what it's worth, I don't think that's what they have planned. The new DLC contains tools for users to create and play their own missions, and people want in-game mission sharing. I agree that it's an important feature, and the currently announced plan of "upload your mission to dropbox and unzip them in this folder here" is just not as good as a click-and-go system. But in order for Take 2 to host (or subcontract hosting from Sony/Microsoft for their consoles) such user created files and still be able to sleep at night, they have to ensure that they're legally allowed to hold and distribute those files. This clause in the EULA is an easy way to accomplish that, if overly broad, tone-deaf, and ham-fisted.

Edited March 5, 2018 by HebaruSan

[PiezPiedPy]

Well Squad are leaving it a bit late, Tomorrow is the dead line.

[Fobok]

8 minutes ago, PiezPiedPy said:

Well Squad are leaving it a bit late, Tomorrow is the dead line.

I don't think they will be responding. As mentioned pretty much are directly above your post, they can't really comment or reassure without the approval of lawyers, and there's no way the lawyers would approve it. But, as with many of the others, I don't think it will be an issue.

[Brainlord Mesomorph]

The only part of the new EULA that I have a problem with is this part:

(from new EULA): "USER CREATED CONTENT: (...) you hereby grant Licensor an exclusive, perpetual, irrevocable, fully transferable...

its no worse that the same section the Facebook EULA, or the terms of this Forum.

But I agree yes, its all over reaching, which is why i don't use facebook or create any KSP content.

My advice keep playing KSP. (you paid for it) Don't create content (they're not paying you for it).

Edited March 5, 2018 by Brainlord Mesomorph

[stibbons]

25 minutes ago, PiezPiedPy said:

The only part of the new EULA that I have a problem with is this part:

You're not quoting the whole clause. From http://www.take2games.com/eula/

Quote

USER CREATED CONTENT: The Software may allow you to create content, including, but not limited to, a gameplay map, scenario, screenshot, car design, character, item, or video of your game play. In exchange for use of the Software, and to the extent that your contributions through use of the Software give rise to any copyright interest, you hereby grant Licensor an exclusive, perpetual, irrevocable, fully transferable, and sub-licensable worldwide right and license to use your contributions in any way and for any purpose in connection with the Software and related goods and services, including, but not limited to, the rights to reproduce, copy, adapt, modify, perform, display, publish, broadcast, transmit, or otherwise communicate to the public by any means whether now known or unknown and distribute your contributions without any further notice or compensation to you of any kind for the whole duration of protection granted to intellectual property rights by applicable laws and international conventions.

That applies to content created in-game, such as videos and missions made using the Making History mission builder. I fail to see how it applies to code written outside of The Software.

29 minutes ago, PiezPiedPy said:

The original EULA stated that the modders owned the rights to their own code

Where in the current EULA does it state that?

[PiezPiedPy]

Well the smallest chance of Take2 charging money for hours of work into a mod I have worked on for the KSP community to use for free dose not sit well with me. I feel Take2 have decided its ok if they steal modders code and we modders can go suck eggs if it offends us.

I have no problem giving Take2 redistribution rights if that is all that concerns them but I will not give them resale rights, no way jose. Even if that means uninstalling KSP and not posting on the forums