The Ultimate Jool 5 Challenge Continued

[Muetdhiver]

On ‎1‎/‎1‎/‎2020 at 6:46 PM, JacobJHC said:

@IncongruousGoat I have begun reviewing your submission, but have been unable to find the Bop and Pol screenshots. Forgive my inability to do so, would you mind quoting this comment with the link to the Bop and Pol landings?

I am currently editing the video of the Bop and Pol landings. I'm new to it, so it takes me more time than anticipated. I will try to be done with it as fast as possible.

Includes a kraken landing

[Muetdhiver]

Here are the Caveman launch, dock and transfer to Jool video as well as the Pol - Bop - Vall video.

Launch, with loss of one of the vernier engines... followed by RVZ with the Jool expedition mothership and transfer to Jool with caveman trajectory corrections using math and pykep.

https://youtu.be/vonjAX5r3_0

Landings and tranfers, from Tylo -> Pol -> Bop -> Vall. Includes visiting the Kraken :

https://youtu.be/9UKmKqCkktw

I had a lot of footage at hand (hours) so I had to cut out a fair bit of faffy stuff (like the Jeb pickup routine and Vall encounter that too several orbits to achieve) and accelerate to x2 most of the sequences. All the Jeb pickups with the ships are done in x8 because they take ages.

 

[jost]

On 1/1/2020 at 6:09 PM, JacobJHC said:

If you wouldn't mind, that would be much appreciated!

Done: https://imgur.com/a/CG093Wr 

Still a lot of images (79), but at least a lot more reasonable than the 147 in my complete log: https://imgur.com/a/MuS2Bxf

There is just one issue, according to the rules:
 

Quote

12. Pictures or it didn't happen! Please keep the resources tab open, as well as show the informative windows from Mechjeb or KER if you use them. Take a picture of every important moment, including transfers, dockings, landings, stagings, and refuelings. For Jeb's Level, also take pictures of the science screen when you recover your craft. Alternatively, video submissions are a great way to show everyone your mission as well. These will help future participants to see exactly how you accomplished each part!

I didn't realized that KERs delta-v readout is not enough and would have to repeat the whole mission to fix this. Alas I don't have the saves anymoore to do the screenshots according to the rules.

So I guess I'm disqualified, ain't I?

[CaptainHaywood]

So, I've got a fairly detailed question before I even start planning this out.

My current playstyle heavily involves what I call "bootstrap space." Basically rather than launching my ships straight from Kerbin and off to their destination, with maybe a bit of orbital assembly, I make heavy use of robotic refueling and mining platforms I have scattered across the Kerbol system.

For example, to simply ferry a crew to a Duna surface base, I'd first launch them up to my extensive LKO space station in a barebones hopper. From there, they'd take a second, more powerful ship (refueled thanks to ISRU and ore shipments from Kerbin) and transfer out to my Minmus station.

They'd then get on a nuclear thermal interplanetary ship, fueled up from Minmus mining hoppers and ISRU, and strike out for Duna. I've got yet another fueling platform around Ike (lower gravity for miners) that the interplanetary ship would rendezvous with. For the final leg of the trip, the crew would take a lander down from Ike orbit to the base.

Is it more efficient in terms of D-V and payload capacity than a direct launch and transfer to Duna? Yes, since you aren't burning the vast majority of your interplanetary ship's fuel just to get it into LKO. Is it more efficient in terms of time to keep the system running? No. But that's not the point.

I have several platforms in the Joolian system - one around every moon except for Pol, and one non-refueling station in extremely tight orbit of Jool itself. My question is whether or not making use of preexisting infrastructure, as it were, to ease the trip to Jool (by assembling a brand-new mothership in LKO and bootstrapping out to Minmus) and to top off once in the Jool system would be breaking the rules of the challenge.

Going by the letter of the rules, I might be in the clear. Rule 4 might be invoked, but that seems to only apply to the ship used for the challenge. I don't think it'd count as a refueling mission, (which are no longer allowed, judging by the strikethrough) since it was sent out as part of a totally unrelated project before the challenge mission rather than after the mission to provide direct assistance to the challenge mission. As far as I can tell, my refueling stations are just usage of ISRU by proxy.

I eagerly await the verdict declaring me wrong, because that's the likely outcome here :p

 

Edit: To clarify, all those platforms are 100% stock.

Edited January 12, 2020 by CaptainHaywood
Clarification

[Alchemist]

5 hours ago, CaptainHaywood said:

So, I've got a fairly detailed question before I even start planning this out.

My current playstyle heavily involves what I call "bootstrap space." Basically rather than launching my ships straight from Kerbin and off to their destination, with maybe a bit of orbital assembly, I make heavy use of robotic refueling and mining platforms I have scattered across the Kerbol system.

 

1. Assembly:

The way you assemble the ship is not prescribed. If you bring fuel from Minmus using pre-existing infrastructure (or even incorporate an old lander you've had around), that can be considered just as part of orbital assembly.
However, the final vessel must depart as a single ship from LKO

2. Departure:

You are not supposed to interact with anything not included in your ship after leaving LKO - so preexisting fuel infrastructure is out of question after this point.
However, if you transfer to Minmus and use ISRU-equpped lander to refuel from it before flying to Jool, it is  acceptable.

3. Jool:

You are not supposed to use preexisting infrastructure or anything other than what arrived there as part of your mothership (relay satellites and scouting are OK, but definitely no docking with other vessels for boosting or refueling). But you can use ISRU you bring with you for refueling at the moons.

[JacobJHC]

4 hours ago, Alchemist said:

 

1. Assembly:

The way you assemble the ship is not prescribed. If you bring fuel from Minmus using pre-existing infrastructure (or even incorporate an old lander you've had around), that can be considered just as part of orbital assembly.
However, the final vessel must depart as a single ship from LKO

2. Departure:

You are not supposed to interact with anything not included in your ship after leaving LKO - so preexisting fuel infrastructure is out of question after this point.
However, if you transfer to Minmus and use ISRU-equpped lander to refuel from it before flying to Jool, it is  acceptable.

3. Jool:

You are not supposed to use preexisting infrastructure or anything other than what arrived there as part of your mothership (relay satellites and scouting are OK, but definitely no docking with other vessels for boosting or refueling). But you can use ISRU you bring with you for refueling at the moons.

@CaptainHaywood I couldn't have said it better. Hope this helps!

[Ziv]

Hi Guys,

As the original creator of the JOOL-5 Challenge, I'm so happy to see it is still up and running!!
Thank you @JacobJHC for doing a great job keeping it alive, you are awesome!

I saw @Alchemist's question about the ISRU refuelings and I like that approach too! I would like to give a different categories for these different approaches. 

A little background on the JOOL-5 Challenge: 

Back in 2013 the orange tank and the Mainsail were the biggest stuff and there was no ISRU. It was similar to nowadays real-life Space Exploration, so it was not possible to have fuel from anywhere outside of our own rockets. 

So the real challenge was to do it, in any way!  It was really pretty hard back then.
ISRU makes it much easier on terms of successfulness. But it also adds other engineering challenges, of course! And it deserves it's place in the challenge. 

One more thing: I saw Kerbals are allowed to travel deep space in their space suit only. I don't like this because the original JOOL-5 wanted to be a real-life approach of the hardness of space exploration... but, of course, I was also experimenting with low-weight solutions, without a pod. 

But I was able to do a JOOL-5 plus An (almost) Grand Tour with a less-than 10 tons ion-driven spacecraft, even with a pod for Jebediah for the long deep space journeys! 

https://imgur.com/a/Oevfg

[Starslinger999]

Hello Boys, I'm baaaccck!

 

After dealing with school and updates I finally decided to just do it on a 1.7.3 save with mods (Mainly Restock/Restock+ but several others)

Here's the link to the new page I've set up for this!

I've posted the first few launches for the first of 2 support vehicles which carry probes and rovers as a vanguard to the mission itself. The next set will be posted as Soon as I'm done with it (I am launching it after I am finished typing this).

Not in science mode but I'm still doing it in the SPIRIT of Jebediah Level. Bringing 6 kerbals along 1 poor guy isn't going to land but why not.

[Stamp20]

Would using ForScience! (automatically runs science experiments) be considered cheating for Jeb's Level?

I want to know for when I do this challenge later in my current save.

[JacobJHC]

7 minutes ago, Stamp20 said:

Would using ForScience! (automatically runs science experiments) be considered cheating for Jeb's Level?

I want to know for when I do this challenge later in my current save.

For Jeb's level auto-science-experimenting could give you an unfair advantage, so I would try and stay away from it for a Jeb's level entry. Best of luck in your save!

[jost]

On 1/7/2020 at 9:37 PM, jost said:

Done: https://imgur.com/a/CG093Wr 

Still a lot of images (79), but at least a lot more reasonable than the 147 in my complete log: https://imgur.com/a/MuS2Bxf

There is just one issue, according to the rules:
 

I didn't realized that KERs delta-v readout is not enough and would have to repeat the whole mission to fix this. Alas I don't have the saves anymoore to do the screenshots according to the rules.

So I guess I'm disqualified, ain't I?

@JacobJHC Don't want to poke the bear but can you have a look please?

It's fine If I'm disqualified I just want to know whether I need to redo  it.

 

Although I won't complain if the KERs delta-v readouts are enough

[JacobJHC]

Just now, jost said:

@JacobJHC Don't want to poke the bear but can you have a look please?

It's fine If I'm disqualified I just want to know whether I need to redo  it.

 

Although I won't complain if the KERs delta-v readouts are enough

My apologies, I completely missed your last post, I'll give it a look immediately.

[JacobJHC]

@jost congratulations on completing the Jool 5 challenge on Jeb's level! While you did have KER delta-v readouts, the staging menu also had them which backed up/confirmed your KER readouts, so you're all good! I really liked the plane, and how long your mothership originally was. I don't know why but I really like long, lumbering spacecraft. I'll add you to the leaderboard now!

 

WAIT A MINUTE: This is a Jeb's level not a level 2! (correct me if I'm wrong).

Edited January 28, 2020 by JacobJHC

[έķ νίĻĻάίή]

Question - I want to do Jeb's level, so can I alt+f12 to unlock the whole tech tree in a new science mode save so I can get the full amount of science without using it?

[Space Nerd]

I'm now attempting this challenge, but my laythe lander flips when dropping the rapier engine boosters and igniting the aerospike core stage(it's going at 1200m/s and the altitude is around 25km), so I have to use mechjeb's autopilot, anyway to fix that?

[fulgur]

You could, or you could start a topic in Gameplay Q's so that the forum could help.

It's legal here even though it's [flamewar fuel], as it is in most challenges except piloting challenges. Evidence:

Quote

STOCK: only mods which do not add parts and do not change physics are allowed.  This includes any informational, planning, visual, autopilot, or automatic functions.

Plus a lot of mods are legal anyway...

[DerekL1963]

10 hours ago, Space Nerd said:

I'm now attempting this challenge, but my laythe lander flips when dropping the rapier engine boosters and igniting the aerospike core stage(it's going at 1200m/s and the altitude is around 25km), so I have to use mechjeb's autopilot, anyway to fix that?

There's two potential causes:

1) Your lander has poor center of gravity and requires a redesign.

2) Your lander has poor aerodynamics and either requires a redesign or a different flight path.   When I did I Jool-5, I found that the best way to maintain aerodynamic control was to fly an extremely lofted trajectory - basically straight up and then performing my gravity turn in the upper atmosphere.

Pictures would help diagnose any problems.

[jost]

On 1/28/2020 at 4:35 PM, JacobJHC said:

My apologies, I completely missed your last post, I'll give it a look immediately.

No worries mate. I know you were quite busy with your finals. 

On 1/28/2020 at 5:07 PM, JacobJHC said:

@jost congratulations on completing the Jool 5 challenge on Jeb's level! While you did have KER delta-v readouts, the staging menu also had them which backed up/confirmed your KER readouts, so you're all good! I really liked the plane, and how long your mothership originally was. I don't know why but I really like long, lumbering spacecraft. I'll add you to the leaderboard now!

 

WAIT A MINUTE: This is a Jeb's level not a level 2! (correct me if I'm wrong).

Well the long mothershop is the result of Kerpollos "everything needs to be launched from one launch" rule. For the same reasons I coudn't do multiple landings at Pol for mining.

If I attempt Jool5 again I would use a quite different mission architecture.

Concerning the level:
 

Quote

3RD LEVEL: There's not enough time left for training one crew member to be an expert on all of the moons, so five Kerbonauts must go to the mission, with at least one unique Kerbonaut landing on each moon.

JEBEDIAH'S LEVEL: collect as much Science as possible!  Your score is the number of science points from the Jool system only, returned to Kerbin (not transmitted).  Only stock experiments count for this!  To score, take pictures of the science screen(s) when you recover the data.  Otherwise, the rules are the same as 3rd Level.

I aimed for 3rd level but didn't get when a "reusage" of Kerbals is allowed or not. So I launched with five kerbals to see whether It might work or not (if not no worries).  Since Jeb Level says "rules are the same"  this would mean I achieved 3rd level too. On the other hand you said that's 2nd level. So I'm not quite sure, whether the ruling is correct or not.

Anyway: Thanks for maintaining this great challenge. It always inspired me from my beginnings in Kerbal. 
If I do it again I would propably use a mission profile with a dedicated Tylo Lander/Rover combination or a Miner with higher TWR (so it can land on Tylo too) in one of my Career Games (which mains to plan with LifeSupport). At the moment I have no interest, I found the quickload/try to land/repeat procedure a little bit to grindy  Even with MechJebs assistance

[fulgur]

14 minutes ago, DerekL1963 said:

I found that the best way to maintain aerodynamic control was to fly an extremely lofted trajectory - basically straight up and then performing my gravity turn in the upper atmosphere.

Personally, since jets work so well on Laythe, I'd have larger control surfaces and have a lower flight trajectory. I regularly get out of the atmosphere on jets alone (admittedly the smallest I could possibly make).

[jinnantonix]

16 hours ago, Space Nerd said:

I'm now attempting this challenge, but my laythe lander flips when dropping the rapier engine boosters and igniting the aerospike core stage(it's going at 1200m/s and the altitude is around 25km), so I have to use mechjeb's autopilot, anyway to fix that?

Without seeing your design, it is difficult to be sure.  Can you move your rapier engine boosters so that they are aligned with the centre of mass of the craft?  So when you eject them the CoM of the craft remains unchanged.  

 

Edited January 31, 2020 by jinnantonix

[jinnantonix]

@JacobJHC I have noticed there is no entry for "low cost", and thinking of giving it a try.  Are there any rules regarding re-usability, e.g. subtracting recovered costs of the returning craft at the KSC, or is it just the cost of the craft (or crafts) at launch from KSC (no recovery)?

[IncongruousGoat]

@JacobJHC Not sure if you missed it, but the footage that was missing from this: https://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/172495-the-ultimate-jool-5-challenge-continuation-for-18/&do=findComment&comment=3718515

was posted by @Muetdhiver here: https://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/172495-the-ultimate-jool-5-challenge-continuation-for-18/&do=findComment&comment=3725443

 

[Space Nerd]

Ok looks like the problem is too much thrust, limit the thrust to 1/2 worked.

[Jacke]

1 hour ago, Space Nerd said:

Ok looks like the problem is too much thrust, limit the thrust to 1/2 worked.

That could be due to not enough pitch, yaw, and even roll authority both low and high in the atmosphere, especially if the thrust is off-axis with respect to the CoM as it moves.

Edited January 31, 2020 by Jacke

[JacobJHC]

12 hours ago, jinnantonix said:

@JacobJHC I have noticed there is no entry for "low cost", and thinking of giving it a try.  Are there any rules regarding re-usability, e.g. subtracting recovered costs of the returning craft at the KSC, or is it just the cost of the craft (or crafts) at launch from KSC (no recovery)?

Low cost is just the cost of the craft. Including recovery costs would just allow people to fly a normal Jool 5 then parachute-cluster that boi back to the KSC and claim it was a 'low-cost' run. If you attempt a low-cost mission I wish you the best of luck!

19 hours ago, jost said:

Anyway: Thanks for maintaining this great challenge. It always inspired me from my beginnings in Kerbal. 

I'm glad the challenge could do that for you, back when SDJ64 ran the challenge, the exact same thing happened to me!