Air Superiority Competition Unlimited Re-Continued - Now in KSP 1.4 and BDA 1.2!

[ZLM-Master]

I made  a radar test against the same target and this is what i see .

- Mounted 1 radome in front , AIM 120 lock target at about 11 KM , with 0% success

- Mounted 1 radome in front , AIM 120 ( 2nd Lock ) around 7 KM . with 20% success

Then

- mounted 8 Radome in front ; AIM 120 lock at 12.5 KM with 0% success

- Mounted 8 Radome in front , AIM 120 ( 2nd lock ) around 9 KM , with 20% Success .

So my conclusion is that Mutiply radar as no impact on your success hit , A tiny impact on range lock & a better FoV if mounted in different way !

MMmmmm

[Box of Stardust]

One for the morning.

@dundun93's A26 vs @53miner53's P-5 Flash.

 

Battles:

Spoiler

 

After Action Report:

Spoiler

Battle Report:

Analysis:

You can't have an unstable fighter.

Also, top mounted weapons that drop explosives around your aircraft are dangerous.

So, in this one, it's quite impressive to see BDA 1.0's near-instakill Vulcan fire from those P-5s, getting some accurate, lightning quick kills in.

Meanwhile, the A26, again, can't push its maneuverability to the max, which probably would have won it this battle pretty handily actually. It spins out on one of the harder turns it tries to make (but does make an impressive recovery). It also has the struggle of making the small adjustments needed to hit those tiny P-5s.

 

[Guest]

12 hours ago, Box of Stardust said:

One for the morning.

@dundun93's A26 vs @53miner53's P-5 Flash.

 

Battles:

  Hide contents

 

After Action Report:

  Hide contents

Battle Report:

Analysis:

You can't have an unstable fighter.

Also, top mounted weapons that drop explosives around your aircraft are dangerous.

So, in this one, it's quite impressive to see BDA 1.0's near-instakill Vulcan fire from those P-5s, getting some accurate, lightning quick kills in.

Meanwhile, the A26, again, can't push its maneuverability to the max, which probably would have won it this battle pretty handily actually. It spins out on one of the harder turns it tries to make (but does make an impressive recovery). It also has the struggle of making the small adjustments needed to hit those tiny P-5s.

 

gosh...

[Box of Stardust]

@dundun93's A26 vs @Earthlinger's Berzerker 2.1:

 

Battles:

Spoiler

 

 

After Action Report:

Spoiler

Battle Record:

Analysis:

Same as all the others. With the plus side that Berzerker is fast enough to run down the A26s.

Should fix the single-intake problem of Berzerker though. Just slap on some radial intakes on the side so that it's not disabled just by getting shot in the front.

A26 is unable to get a place on the board.

 

[ZLM-Master]

Yopyop

I can enter a 2nd aircraft for KSP 1.4.X .The Lure Target is most fun & still decent maneuverability .

I work on a better version of the X-Fighter , but it's seem's than i reach it"s max performance , Huh ^^

I also try newer design without the result expected , go to the draw board again

So i enter a 3rd aircraft if i'm able to build something good ! Good enough

Nice day on Kerbin .

EDIT : just remember that it use DCK engine ( Kitty ) so i replace them with AP engine ( Tiger )

Edited May 12, 2018 by ZLM-Master

[Piatzin]

On 5/12/2018 at 4:21 PM, Box of Stardust said:

Should fix the single-intake problem of Berzerker though. Just slap on some radial intakes on the side so that it's not disabled just by getting shot in the front.

Hm, yes. My Lancers/Axblades all have two large radial intakes clipped into the body of the craft, (for extra sleekness) but I neglected to add that feature to the Berzerkers

Edited May 15, 2018 by Earthlinger

[Box of Stardust]

So we're getting pretty close to finishing off the 1.3.1 queue, which means getting closer to having to deal with what to do with the leaderboard when moving into 1.4.x. Because there's been a lot of changes in BDA 1.2, I feel that it may not be fair to make planes that were made for BDA 1.0 fight in an environment they were not designed in. That means probably just freezing the leaderboards of 1.3.1 and relegating them to the records section, and starting over with a new, clean board. Veteran statuses will not change until the new board is populated and planes are sufficiently tested.

Of course, that's what I'm just considering right now. The other option is to re-arm all leaderboard planes for BDA 1.2, but there's also been flight AI changes that affect how aircraft fight, which is the bigger issue really, and why I'm considering a clean slate.

Anyways, back to the battles.

 

@dundun92's Du-8C vs the board, Part 1. It's a small, very lightweight drone designed during that trend of lightweight drones. It is only armed with 2 Vulcans.

 

vs Gunbrick.

Spoiler

 

 

After Action Report:

Spoiler

Battle Record:

Analysis:

Du-8C is another aircraft that I just let fly in whatever formation it takes off in, because it also has problems in precision control, at least for the takeoff run. Inspection in the SPH reveals CoL and CoM interaction problems. However, in combat, this doesn't seem to manifest too much, if at all. It also still has no significant yaw control, which is also a problem, but not so much that it causes spinning out or anything. In fact, in combat, Du-8C is... sufficiently maneuverable.

However, as a gunfighter, it just can't beat Gunbrick. Too much being thrown its way and not enough being thrown back to beat Gunbrick in the merge. Also, Gunbrick does a friendly fire at least once. But the small size does help Du-8C survive the merge somewhat. But never fully, and is not able to re-engage effectively.

Du-8C begins testing downwards against the Tier 2 board.

 

vs @ZLM-Master's V-TEK

Spoiler

 

 

 

After Action Report:

Spoiler

Battle Record:

Analysis:

So here we see Du-8C's primary weakness: time.

It's configured with such little fuel and lots of afterburner usage, and it burns through its fuel reserves before a battle is done.

Against V-TEK, I'm not really sure what to make of it. I guess Sidewinder usage does come into play to allow V-TEK to re-position against Du-8C. I didn't notice any missile kills though; most seemed to be gun kills.

Du-8C is maneuverable enough, its speed and acceleration is a very strong attribute, and its firepower is... well, it works, when it hits. But 2500m gun range only works if you have enough guns to compensate for inaccuracy at that range.

Du-8C's only win came from a battle where they got extremely good positions against the V-TEKs following the merge. In an extended battle, they are unable to down the V-TEKs quickly enough and are either shot down in return or run out of fuel.

 

[Box of Stardust]

@dundun92's Du-8C vs Du-5Rs:

 

Battles:

Spoiler

 

 

 

After Action Report:

Spoiler

Battle Record:

Analysis:

Du-8C was doing pretty good actually. Its speed and size advantage proved useful against Du-5Rs's slowness.

Until its time ran out, then it just lost at that point.

Du-5Rs was never really in a position to exploit its maneuverability, but it managed it at some points. But if a Du-8C was able to survive gunfire while running away, the Du-5Rs had to wait until the Du-8C came back. When a Du-8C re-engaged, it was again a toss up of which one would win the joust, or if both would survive and would have to turn around.

 

[Box of Stardust]

@dundun92's Du-8C vs @GillyMonster's Dart II.

 

Battle:

Spoiler

 

 

After Action Report:

Spoiler

Battle Record:

Analysis:

Funny that Du-8C becomes more accurate when it runs out of fuel and becomes a flying turret, but I guess not having to correct for overcorrections in flight makes it easier that way. The Du-8C in Sortie 3 was out of fuel for a while, using up almost all of its remaining speed to glide up close enough to the last Dart and get a kill at 1800m distance.

Also, we get to see BDA's oddity with the whole 'lock distance' thing here, with the Darts instead being able to fire on the Du-8Cs once in detect distance.

Still, the Du-8Cs weren't taken down by any missile strike. It only cost them fuel (though valuable).

I think a major factor in this battle was Dart II's wide gun layout, which meant it often missed when directly at a Du-8C.

Du-8C takes the #8 spot from Dart II.

 

[GillyMonster]

Are we waiting for anything in particular or can I submit another aircraft?

[Box of Stardust]

9 minutes ago, GillyMonster said:

Are we waiting for anything in particular or can I submit another aircraft?

You can submit, but only for KSP 1.4.x and BDA 1.2.

There's been quite a few changes, so make sure your craft is made in 1.4.x and BDA 1.2. If you're going to submit a plane that was made in 1.3.1, you have to import it into 1.4.x and remove and re-equip all BDA parts with fresh ones (those were the instructions the BDA team gave).

[Box of Stardust]

So I was considering doing a re-advancement for Gunbrick, and I started doing it, even though I considered that a 5v5 between Gunbrick and TFD 2.1 would be extremely dumb.

It turns out that the game agrees.

 

At least it wasn't an 8v8, because I would not like to have seen what kind of slide show that would've been.

[Box of Stardust]

Up next in the race to clear the 1.3.1 queue (we're almost done!): @ZLM-Master's X-Fighter 2 vs V-TEK:

 

Battle:

Spoiler

 

 

 

After Action Report:

Spoiler

Battle Record:

Analysis:

Hey! Something finally beat V-TEK! It just took ZLM to do it against himself.

The X-Fighter shows an improvement in ZLM's designing or AI tuning. It's still a little unstable though; seems to overcorrect a bit, but not too much. Probably due to the large Big-S control surfaces being active for all inputs.

Still, its slightly smaller size helped give it an edge in this match. As well, it seemed to be more maneuverable than V-TEK.

Missile usage was there, but I didn't observe any hits on the V-TEKs. However, same could be said with Sidewinders fired against it.

I've noticed V-TEK's weakness is its main wings; if either of those Delta Deluxe Winglets are clipped off, the V-TEK will spiral out of control and is a loss. Not that other aircraft don't have the weakness of getting one wing shot off, but the DDW is an especially weak part (though experiences in BDA 1.2 would leave you to believe otherwise...).

X-Fighter 2 will go on to face Gunbrick.

 

[ZLM-Master]

 Haha ! i beat myself , very ironical  This was the prototype of the X-Fighter & it's funny to see how it work in KSP 1.3.X . I managed to fix some of his little issue for 1.2.1 & with better AI it's tiny better . BTW , i don't think it can do something against the Gunbrick . Maybe by his size or speed , but the Gunbrick power probably don't let him pass the 1st merge . Need a good among of luck after the launch PoD to engage fast , so it probably got only one chance to prove his maneuverability because Gunbrick rarely offert a 2nd chance ^^

- Like the Du-8C , it could be really good with tiny improvement  Maybe just wait the Du-9 ^^

- THX for Upload

[Box of Stardust]

1 hour ago, ZLM-Master said:

 Haha ! i beat myself , very ironical  This was the prototype of the X-Fighter & it's funny to see how it work in KSP 1.3.X . I managed to fix some of his little issue for 1.2.1 & with better AI it's tiny better . BTW , i don't think it can do something against the Gunbrick . Maybe by his size or speed , but the Gunbrick power probably don't let him pass the 1st merge . Need a good among of luck after the launch PoD to engage fast , so it probably got only one chance to prove his maneuverability because Gunbrick rarely offert a 2nd chance ^^

- Like the Du-8C , it could be really good with tiny improvement  Maybe just wait the Du-9 ^^

- THX for Upload

I already filmed it vs Gunbrick. It lost lol. You're right on the analysis, you can't really evade Gunbrick unless you're super lucky, and there isn't really any 'second chances' unless you get your Sidewinders off before the head-on pass kills you.

X-Fighter 2 gets #6 spot. I'll put up the videos later. 

[53miner53]

I rebuilt P-5 for 1.4 and BDA 1.2. The a variant is still being worked on though, and despite PWings not being updated for 1.4, the 1.3 version still works well. 

[Box of Stardust]

@ZLM-Master's X-Fighter 2 vs Gunbrick. Already said the results though.

 

Battle:

Spoiler

 

After Action Report:

Spoiler

Battle Record:

Analysis:

Just like ZLM figured, yup, you don't really get second chances against Gunbrick.

The X-Fighters were unable to successfully use their Sidewinders in this battle, and that cost them.

X-Fighter 2 sits at #6.

 

 

 

Because I figured that CShRAID isn't really gonna be getting anywhere, due to leaderboard rules and Gunbrick, here's some exhibition fights vs the top 2 Tier 2 aircraft:

Spoiler

 

Analysis:

Spoiler

No routing device, just a solid gunfighter and missile fighter. CShRAID Type 2b was built during that short period after Micro Fighter and Lynx came out, and everyone figured they should go small.

CShRAID is able to maneuver hard, lock Sidewinders, and keep guns on target. Good acceleration and speed also (though I'd actually rather have a little more speed than 270m/s). It's a good example of just a solidly built fighter.

 

Edited May 14, 2018 by Box of Stardust

[GillyMonster]

Making a new fighter, so I figured out what Pitch Ki does...but my fighter when using guns is aiming and firing in an up and down spraying motion.  Adjust the steer factor or steer damping?

Edited May 14, 2018 by GillyMonster

[Box of Stardust]

1 hour ago, GillyMonster said:

Making a new fighter, so I figured out what Pitch Ki does...but my fighter when using guns is aiming and firing in an up and down spraying motion.  Adjust the steer factor or steer damping?

That depends on a number of factors actually.

I've found that this BD Armory Wiki page actually helps to learn how to 'read' your plane's flying with the AI.

In simple, quick terms though, from my experience, the most noticeable trait for needing to increase damping is your plane rolling too hard/not being able to control its roll well. A well-tuned plane should be able to roll quickly to the orientation it wants to and need minimal correction (some over-rolling is fine, but it shouldn't overcorrect more than once or twice). From there, you can derive how to set steer factor and damping.

[Box of Stardust]

For the last of KSP 1.3.1 and BDA 1.0 and its thermal-damage-system-instant-aircraft-combustion-goodness, we have @Wolf5698's Jaguar JX and Enterprise.

 

Jaguar JX vs @ZLM-Master's X-Fighter 2:

Spoiler

 

 

 

Enterprise vs ...?

Spoiler

 

 

Spoiler

Executive decisions again.

Jaguar just keeps spinning out.

 

So I fixed I took 3 minutes in the editor and fixed it a bit, plus some quick AI tuning (ballpark guesses, but I've gotten pretty decent at slapping quick tunes onto fighters).

 

And... it still spun out. Less, but still managed to spin out eventually. I guess I should've fixed the control surface mixing too, and just turned off a lot of the actuations for the various control surfaces.

Also the routing device... didn't really work. It did... once. But Jaguar as programmed would've been way too slow for it to have been effective anyways. If it didn't spin out.

 

As for Enterprise... yeah, some warp core problems there probably. Vessel Mover couldn't spawn it without the thing going nuts, so... yeah, there went that one.

 

 

And now we're officially open for KSP 1.4.3 and BDA 1.2!

[jrodriguez]

On 5/13/2018 at 8:24 PM, 53miner53 said:

I rebuilt P-5 for 1.4 and BDA 1.2. The a variant is still being worked on though, and despite PWings not being updated for 1.4, the 1.3 version still works well. 

I did a release of PWings sometime ago for KSP 1.4.X . https://github.com/jrodrigv/B9-PWings-Fork/releases

BTW for the BDA 1.2  I would recommend to allow and restrict the following @Box of Stardust

- Armor plates should be allowed.

- Manual edition of armor values for stock parts should be NOT allowed (otherwise everybody will use the max armor values)

Edited May 16, 2018 by jrodriguez

[Box of Stardust]

No new official battles yet, since I haven't figured out what to do with the leaderboard going into 1.4.x and BDA 1.2. Also since I've just been experimenting with BDA 1.2 in general, mainly testing aircraft survivability and to find out if we really do need the DCK hitpoint editor to adjust part HP or not. First, I made this thing for testing how much damage guns actually do, and found out that 1 unit of Vulcan ammo corresponds to about ~350 hitpoints. Which is actually a pretty decent chunk of health. Then to see how that worked in dogfights.

To that end, some of you may remember my small testing and re-engineering project, the Lynx IIC, created from the Lynx. Well, I decided I needed a more 'conventional' drone to test BDA dogfights and weapon effects, plus @53miner53 rebuilt the P-5 for BDA 1.2, so I then decided to grab @Earthlinger's Berzerker/Lancer and made the Lancer IIC, to pit it against the tiny target that beat the Berzerker 2.1 the first time around.

Testing indicates that, well, I don't think we have to change part hitpoint values at all. Which is great!

Also, having only 1 gun is also no issue at all... at least against more 'normally' constructed craft like Lancer (not normal: PEGASys/Basilisk). 1 Vulcan is perfectly sufficient in a dogfight. P-5 is still pretty accurate with that Vulcan and uses it to good effect.

Again, the Flight AI is far more compliant and flies much more aggressively. It's also very, very missile-happy.

Here's the exhibition battles. Also, Lancer IIC pulls off what is probably the best kill ever done in ASC.

Spoiler

 

 

 

Edited May 17, 2018 by Box of Stardust

[Piatzin]

55 minutes ago, Box of Stardust said:

Also, Lancer IIC pulls off what is probably the best kill ever done in ASC.

That body slam? :D

[Box of Stardust]

29 minutes ago, Earthlinger said:

That body slam?

I mean, hey, it survived and finished off the last half-dead P-5, so that's a success. 

[Box of Stardust]

Hey guys, update.

So I've made the decision to just start on a new, clean leaderboard, instead of continuing to use the leaderboard with aircraft from 1.3.1. This is because the AI in BDA 1.2 behaves so much differently that what made current leaderboard aircraft succeed in BDA 1.0 may not necessarily translate to success in BDA 1.2. Though the opposite is also possible, and that they'll be just fine, but in that case, just re-submit your aircraft with any desired adjustments.

I've been experimenting a lot with BDA 1.2, and I've discovered a few things:

Big hint: new meta is Sidewinders.

AI tuning is somewhat less of a concern now. The AI is much smarter in maneuvering and performs hard maneuvering naturally.

However, AI tuning is still important to perform optimally. You still need to tune the AI to ensure that it will be able to perform its intended maneuvers as directly and smoothly as possible, and also prevent it from doing any overcorrections (same as before, but again, the AI is also a bit smarter and is able to fix its flight path better). Generally, before, flight tuning was mainly to ensure that the AI would pitch as hard as it could, but that's no longer the case, since the AI will do it almost naturally in most cases. Now it's more about directional accuracy stability and focusing on having stable roll control.

Flight AI in BDA 1.2 seems to require lower Steer Factor relative to BDA 1.0 settings, but also potentially higher Steer Damping relative to BDA 1.0.

So yeah. The 1.3.1 leaderboard will be frozen and moved into the past records section.