Kerpollo - A Complete Science Mode Run In 9 Acts

[GRS]

@FloppyRocket, here's an advice, split your burn into 2, first burn should get you to Mun orbit altitude, second should get you to Moho, but there's still something else very important about Moho counters, get to one of the Inclination Intersections, the lower ones should give you more advantage, you'll need like a "little" more Delta v to get to Moho orbit, but less for Inclination adjustments and Capture burn, you can save like 1000 m/s in Capture burn if you go that way (I went that way for my successful Mohollo trip).

[Superfluous J]

On 3/11/2019 at 10:44 AM, GRS said:

Evepollo = Purrpollo (Spoiling so you won't get shocked)

Spamming Science turned to be not as easy as i thought (mostly from me being Garbage at Rover controllin)

I hope you don't mean to say you went to different biomes...

5 hours ago, FloppyRocket said:

TWR doesn't matter when you're simply unable to use maneuver nodes to find a Moho encounter.

Remember the lessons you learned when you first tried to get to Minmus. It's possible if not likely that you are passing under or over Moho.

[GRS]

2 minutes ago, 5thHorseman said:

I hope you don't mean to say you went to different biomes...

Nope...i was talking about KSC Science Farming...

[GRS]

Had to do an "Evil" solution, if i can't go small, then i need a good reason to go BIGG, i don't even mind having a 6000 Ton vessel, taking 4 Kerbals down to Eve surface sounds like an "Evil" soluion...

[FloppyRocket]

7 hours ago, GRS said:

@FloppyRocket, here's an advice, split your burn into 2, first burn should get you to Mun orbit altitude, second should get you to Moho, but there's still something else very important about Moho counters, get to one of the Inclination Intersections, the lower ones should give you more advantage, you'll need like a "little" more Delta v to get to Moho orbit, but less for Inclination adjustments and Capture burn, you can save like 1000 m/s in Capture burn if you go that way (I went that way for my successful Mohollo trip).

Thanks for the advice. What is the advantage of getting into a Mun orbit first?

I found a transfer time that allows both getting a Moho encounter and doing the inclination burn at the same time. It did save a lot of delta-v.

I do not totally understand what you're saying to do about the capture burn.

 

7 hours ago, 5thHorseman said:

I hope you don't mean to say you went to different biomes...

Remember the lessons you learned when you first tried to get to Minmus. It's possible if not likely that you are passing under or over Moho.

Mostly what I learned from the Minmus mission was that it's really frustrating trying to use the maneuver nodes to set up a planetary transfer. The stock UI is awful for that - too much high-precision mouse clicking and fiddling. My knuckles have too many miles on them for that to be fun. And you can't move a maneuver node around easily when you're in low-Kerbin orbit, because it's the wrong SOI.

I've learned all that again with the Moho mission.

Eventually I managed to find an encounter that got me there. Unfortunately I'll have to revert and try again after adding a bit more delta-v to my stack, because I am about 400 m/s short of getting back.

[GRS]

@FloppyRocket

Cheaper, more efficient Capture burn, normally, you need like 2700, that method cuts it down into like 1700, and you'll probably need the Mun orbit burn as first Periapsis burn, that's why i asked about TWR.

Edited March 15, 2019 by GRS

[Superfluous J]

1 hour ago, FloppyRocket said:

The stock UI is awful for that - too much high-precision mouse clicking and fiddling. My knuckles have too many miles on them for that to be fun.

This is about where I was when I stated using precisenode.

[Jacke]

1 hour ago, FloppyRocket said:

Thanks for the advice. What is the advantage of getting into a Mun orbit first?

I found a transfer time that allows both getting a Moho encounter and doing the inclination burn at the same time. It did save a lot of delta-v.

I do not totally understand what you're saying to do about the capture burn.

I hope my explanation below doesn't make things worse.  It helps to understand velocities as vectors and how a complex transfer is made of a number of delta-V vectors.  What's wanted is the minimum total delta-V, the linear sum of all the component delta-V's, that as vectors produce the transfer to a relatively more inclined and elliptical orbit like Moho's.  This is a complex problem and I don't think it has an exact solution or even a simple approximation solution.

The problem of doing a Moho transfer is the same as a Mercury transfer in the Solar System: it's not just a transfer orbit to the target orbit, which is difficult itself because it's a highly elliptical target orbit (which complicates finding the timings for minimum delta-V just for that).  It's also that Moho has a relatively highly inclined orbit.  That means you have to do a plane-change maneuver as well, either by itself or combined with one or more of the other component maneuvers.  Plane-changes are best done when the velocity around a primary (ie., around Kerbin when tilting the orbit around Kerbin) is minimum.

Part of the craft's velocity in the frame of Kerbol is that of Kerbin's going around Kerbol.  The plane-change delta-V component for that can't be minimized unless you first use a maneuver to greater apoapsis around Kerbol.  Jumping back to the Solar System, that's one of the reasons why transfers to a very highly inclined Solar orbit are often done first with a Jupiter transfer.  It's not just using Jupiter for a gravity assist but using the greater Solar apoapsis to decrease the velocity component around the Sun to make that delta-V component for the plane change smaller.

But unless an outward maneuver from Kerbol is added into a voyage to Moho, that's usually not done.  So that component of the delta-V total to transfer to Moho is usually always going to be the same.

Then there's the plane-change component of the orbit around Kerbin.  That can be minimized by launching at the time close to Kerbin being at its relative ascending or descending node with respect to Moho.  Then wait for the rotation of Kerbin to launch in an orbit around Kerbin coplanar to Moho's around Kerbol.

So, the transfer to Moho is split up into a few delta-V's, two to four or more.  Some can be combined into a smaller number of maneuvers.  Those delta-V's are all vectors.  If they are closer to being parallel to one another, then the overall transfer is better.  If not, it's worse.

And the problem is those component delta-V's don't all have their minimum values at the same time.  Often not even close to the same time.  Which is why the delta-V spent to get to Moho or Mercury can vary by more than double even for "good" alignments.  And thus hard to find the best time and best series of maneuvers to transfer to both of them.

It's why it's often settled on a set of maneuvers that should be close to best then using an continuous analysis methods like a pork-chop plot to find the launch windows.  Rather than hoping to beat such a complex problem into a completely analytical best method to find the elusive true minimum delta-V by any given set of maneuvers.

Confused yet?  I am and I kind of understand it all.

[GRS]

@Jacke

I understand those, but i think you should make it less wordy, and i know how to do it, but can't explain it, and a little tip, you need to learn a little about Philosophy of angles : The further you go, the greater difference (My Dad taught me this, i mean The Philosophy (i'm not talking to you sir)), i went using 2 Maneuver nodes, the closer one is to execute and the other one is to find a close counter, then i screw the close ones till the other one say that i can get an Encounter, i later used my "Perfectionist" behavior to execute it as accurate as possible.

@FloppyRocket

Whatever you do, you can save like 500-700 m/s Delta v from the Method i told you, when countering eccentric bodies, go for the point that's further from Kerbin's SMA, you'll need less Delta v to capture, and very likely less to get back to Kerbin.

Edited March 15, 2019 by GRS

[Jacke]

1 hour ago, GRS said:

@Jacke

I understand those, but i think you should make it less wordy, and i know how to do it, but can't explain it, and a little tip, you need to learn a little about Philosophy of angles : The further you go, the greater difference (My Dad taught me this, i mean The Philosophy (i'm not talking to you sir))

If you had a reference for this Philosophy of Angles, I'd be interested in it.  I think I know what you mean.  A quick search didn't turn up anything useful.

 

Quote

, i went using 2 Maneuver nodes, the closer one is to execute and the other one is to find a close counter, then i screw the close ones till the other one say that i can get an Encounter, i later used my "Perfectionist" behavior to execute it as accurate as possible.

I think unless you're going to indulge in fancy stuff like Eve and Kerbin gravity assists (sort of like the MESSENGER Mercury orbiter) (and there are mods below that can help find simple ones of those), this might be the best solution.

1.  Launch from Kerbin surface into the plane of the orbit of Moho.  That takes out that plane change as much as possible considering #2.

2.  Optionally, wait until (or get closer to) Kerbin passes through the relative ascending or descending node around Kerbol with respect to Moho, to reduce the delta-V of some of the next maneuvers.  The timing of the transfers from #3 should include this.

3.  Use a porkchop tool like in MechJeb or any of the other mods / external tools following to find a near minimum transfer injection maneuver within the assumptions of these tools.  The best tool is likely Arrowstar's.

Spoiler

TriggerAu's Transfer Window Planner KSP mod
https://triggerau.github.io/TransferWindowPlanner/
https://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/84005-14x-transfer-window-planner-v1630-march-18/

Alexmun's Launch Window Planner online tool
https://alexmoon.github.io/ksp/

Arrowstar's Trajectory Optimization external tool
https://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/33568-winmaclinux-ksp-trajectory-optimization-tool-v162-now-for-linux/

Flyby Finder Windows external tool
https://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/73174-win-flyby-finder-v086-ksp13/

Flyby Finder for Real Solar System Windows external tool
https://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/99228-win-flyby-finder-for-real-solar-system-mod-v085-rss120-for-ksp122/

Note the Flyby Finders can include lists of up to 5 planets but can't find trajectories with multiple passes on the same planet or major deep-space maneuvers (ie. more than a course correction burn).

4.  Set up the maneuver(s) from #3.  Use one of the best maneuver node editors.  Besides one internal to MechJeb, these 2 are still in support, Dmagic's Maneuver Node Evolved and as 5thHorseman mentioned, Precise Node.

Spoiler

https://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/172162-144-15x-dmagics-evolved-mods-tracking-station-evolved-v41-12-5-2018/

https://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/161855-15x-precise-node-continued-precisely-edit-your-maneuver-nodes/

5.  You might (should) get a intercept with Moho's SoI.  You may be able to set up the capture maneuver node.  If so, you can using the maneuver node editors to carefully edit the nodes to minimize delta-V or get a more desired interaction with Moho (eg. polar pass for polar orbit).

6.  Appropriate mid-course correction burns can help to get better interactions and even minimize delta-V.  I think MechJeb's Maneuver Planner tool can help here.

 

 

 

Edited March 15, 2019 by Jacke

[GRS]

IKR, but my Damn Pentium doesn't like many mods, i only got 5 (including Visual), and...that Anime References, and my laziness to get extra Mods....drove me to do those, my KER has lots of stuff in it, also took me 2 burns to get a good "counter", and a Mid course Inclination adjustment, Keeping Mothership barely captured and get the Lander into Polar orbit and do the rest until Docking is how i settled it, the Moho countering burn didn't even reach 20 m/s

Edited March 15, 2019 by GRS

[GRS]

Purrpollo SSTO Rocket...(This is the first time i make Ships that have good Aesthetics)

Overall Look...

(In Eve SOI now, lets land this damn thing on Eve and Gilly)

Edited March 16, 2019 by GRS

[GRS]

Why i call it Cool, the Lander holds 2 Kerbals and is under the Mothership.

[ManEatingApe]

Following a well deserved rest from their Joolpollo mission, Jeb and Valentina fly a compact space plane to Moho and back.

 

Link to craft file

Edited March 19, 2019 by ManEatingApe

[GRS]

Dat @ManEatingApe guy...really is insane...no doubt his missions took so long...

Purrpollo/Evepollo

Whole thing.

Eve Capture.

Method of Lander Dropping.

A newer version redid all from Scratch and landed here.

Docking a big, Gimbal-less, RCS-less object with a small flexible one really is pain.

Oh no...forget another Landing Screenshot...*Shots myself*

Direct Shot home...

Super Cool...

I'm expecting loads of boom...

Told ya...

Debris rain + all Science experiments pulled out...

Science Gain.

Tech Tree

--PROGRESS--

Kerpollo (64.7 Science Points)

Munpollo (227 Science Points)

Minpollo (570.2 Science Points)

Dunpollo (1881 Science Points)

Eeloollo (1804.8 Science Points)

Mohollo (2780.6 Science Points)

Purrpollo (1024.1 Science Points)

If i cant pull 9000 Science for "Sheepollo", i'm a big loser...

And even more for Gigapollo, to grasp some near Space Science with Gravioli detector (Grand Tour flyby)

Edited June 28, 2019 by GRS

[jinnantonix]

Here's one for the Rogues Gallery:  

Joolollo (more Kerpollo than Kerpollo).  Breaks one rule:  Visits all biomes on all five moons. 

Science collected:  82,520

 

 

Edited March 20, 2019 by jinnantonix

[GRS]

4 hours ago, jinnantonix said:

...Science collected:  82250

*Jaws Dropped*

@jinnantonix, you only need a more interesting naming Scheme, like "Single Launch Super High Science Jool 5" or sort of, and a better angle for Thumbnail (tips : Middle Mouse button Drag to move camera focus)

Edited March 20, 2019 by GRS

[ManEatingApe]

4 hours ago, GRS said:

Dat @ManEatingApe guy...really is insane...no doubt his missions took so long...

Thanks! You're pretty crazy too!
 

4 hours ago, jinnantonix said:

Here's one for the Rogues Gallery:  

Joolollo (more Kerpollo than Kerpollo).  Breaks one rule:  Visits all biomes on all five moons. 

Science collected:  82,520

Great mission! Was there even any science left?

[jinnantonix]

Quote

Great mission! Was there even any science left?

I didn't get everything.  Plenty of space science missed.

[GRS]

Oh, and i forgot one thing @5thHorseman, 5 Kerbals are involved in every mission since Kerpollo, an extra requirement to raise Challenge difficulty even higher.

[Superfluous J]

11 hours ago, ManEatingApe said:

Following a well deserved rest from their Joolpollo mission, Jeb and Valentina fly a compact space plane to Moho and back.

Very nicely done! I've never had the fortitude to do an ion ship of any kind, but I've had similar issues on low-twr nuke burns at Moho. I've found that Oberth doesn't really help you when you have to burn for multiple planet widths of distance, so found myself doing a slowdown burn in Sun orbit to align both my Moho arrival time and my orbit to be a bit closer to Moho's in size.

7 hours ago, GRS said:

Oh no...forget another Landing Screenshot...*Shots myself*

Considering you could have landed the MOHTERSHIP on Gilly I'll let it pass

Well done mission! Cool ship!

1 hour ago, GRS said:

5 Kerbals are involved in every mission since Kerpollo, an extra requirement to raise Challenge difficulty even higher.

You crazy. But I'll note it!

6 hours ago, jinnantonix said:

Science collected:  82,520

Sorry. I misspoke above. YOU crazy.

And actually while excessively impressive it's not really in the spirit of *pollo. I've not watched the whole video (yet!) but for instance I noticed you had 2 launches.

Edited March 20, 2019 by 5thHorseman

[GRS]

2 hours ago, 5thHorseman said:

...You crazy. But I'll note it!

Sorry. I misspoke above. YOU crazy...

*Insert Big LOL Here*

Thanks mate... (for the first one, the second one is for @jinnantonix)

And you seem to be a bit confused with my wording, i'll make it clearer, The Kerpollo mission and everything following it were done with 5 Kerbals, which explains that silly look of the Kerpollo ship.

Edited March 20, 2019 by GRS

[jinnantonix]

Quote

not really in the spirit of *pollo. I've not watched the whole video (yet!) but for instance I noticed you had 2 launches.

It breaks a few rules, hence Rogues Gallery.  I thought the KASA Heavy Lift launch vehicle was pretty Kerpollo.  But I'm OK if you think it's too rogue-ish.

[Kitten Shuttles]

Does using a engine to scoot around the KSC for science count as using rocket power? Without going off the ground I mean just scooting around? *also this is my first post on this forum. Not new to the game in any way I just found out about this forum ok byeeeee*

[Superfluous J]

3 hours ago, Kitten Shuttles said:

Does using a engine to scoot around the KSC for science count as using rocket power? Without going off the ground I mean just scooting around? *also this is my first post on this forum. Not new to the game in any way I just found out about this forum ok byeeeee*

I've allowed it in the past but frankly I'm a bit... squidgy about it.

If the rocket car stays on the KSC peninsula and only collects ground science (getting out and hopping for Eva is fine though) then I think it meets the spirit of the rule.