Kerpollo - A Complete Science Mode Run In 9 Acts

[Superfluous J]

10 hours ago, Scarecrow71 said:

Are we truly bound to landing on a body in each stage?  Would this still count as completing the challenge as long as we did this in a total of 9 or less launches?

Yes.

There are 9 logical "areas" if you start on Kerbin:

1. Kerbin, because you're there.
2. Mun, because it orbits Kerbin
3. Minmus, becasue it orbits Kerbin too.
4. Moho, because it orbits the Sun.
5. Eve, because it orbits the sun. And while you're there, get Gilly too.
6. Duna, because it orbits the sun. And while you're there, get Ike too.
7. Dres, because it orbits the Sun.
8. Eeloo, because it orbits the Sun.
9. Jool, and because you can't land there just do a Jool 5, complete with the added restrictions.

Any variation from this does not complete the Kerpollo challenge. I'm not saying it's not worthy of accolades, just that it's in a different category. If anything, I'd say it puts your idea in a higher tier than Kerpollo and your mission set should be considered a subcategory of a Grand Tour. In fact, if you're planning on any multi-planet mission you should instead just suck it up and go for a full fledged Grand Tour.

10 hours ago, Scarecrow71 said:

Ok, so it's time to bring this all together and head for home with the meat of the issue.  Is it against the spirit of the challenge to do a launch that takes you to Mun orbit, collect a bunch of science from both high and low Mun orbit, and then return to Kerbin without landing on the Mun first, spend that science, and then

Yes, if this is the very first launch of your career. it would be a perfectly viable "Kerpollo" launch, as you can go into any SOI you want so long as you only land on Kerbin during that mission.

10 hours ago, Scarecrow71 said:

...undertake one larger mission to land on both Mun and Minmus in the same launch?

No. That's not allowed in the challenge.

10 hours ago, Scarecrow71 said:

I have a personal problem with landing manually.  And by "personal problem", I mean "I can't do it".

One of the central pillar ideas of Kerpollo (and I dare say Kerbal Space Program) is:

YES YOU CAN.

[Scarecrow71]

That is what I thought, but I had to ask to make sure.  Just have to get the dV for the Mun trip right...and then learn how to land.  Thank the Kerbal overlords for quick-saves and reverts.

Although, Minmus might be easier to do first.  Hmmm.....

Edited October 26, 2021 by Scarecrow71

[Superfluous J]

3 hours ago, Scarecrow71 said:

Although, Minmus might be easier to do first.  Hmmm.....

If you can get there Minmus is MUCH easier to land on. You've got the flats which are - well - perfectly flat. Obviously And most engines are way OP so you get a lot of bang for your buck, making fuel last a long time and also making it easy to hit the gas in panic mode and actually survive.

 

[Scarecrow71]

@Superfluous J

The link to the Mission report for Minpollo.

 

Edited November 5, 2021 by Scarecrow71

[Scarecrow71]

The link to the Mission Report for Munpollo.

 

Edited November 5, 2021 by Scarecrow71

[Superfluous J]

Well done! I too like that shot of re-entry from the front.

11 hours ago, Scarecrow71 said:

capture an asteroid and use it to refuel, perhaps

This is perfectly okay in the rules, just make sure you do everything in one launch. No capturing the asteroid in Drespollo, and then fueling with it in Mohollo.

Speaking of that, Dres is the lowest dV single-world mission you have left so if you're looking for somewhere to go to get more science before you unlock docking ports, that'd be my choice. Moho takes a LOT of dV and better engine/tank options (not to mention a slimmed down lander that doesn't need to carry the fuel to go home) may become a must.

[Scarecrow71]

18 minutes ago, Superfluous J said:

Well done! I too like that shot of re-entry from the front.

This is perfectly okay in the rules, just make sure you do everything in one launch. No capturing the asteroid in Drespollo, and then fueling with it in Mohollo.

Speaking of that, Dres is the lowest dV single-world mission you have left so if you're looking for somewhere to go to get more science before you unlock docking ports, that'd be my choice. Moho takes a LOT of dV and better engine/tank options (not to mention a slimmed down lander that doesn't need to carry the fuel to go home) may become a must.

I'm working on Mohollo right now without docking ports.  I've got the lander/return vehicle at 7000ish dV, but ran out of time to finish the whole thing.  I figure if I can pull off Moho with no ports, then I can get Dres and maybe Eeloo.  Trying so hard to not have to dock.

Edited October 28, 2021 by Scarecrow71

[Superfluous J]

3 hours ago, Scarecrow71 said:

Trying so hard to not have to dock.

That's like carrying your car into the house so you don't have to parallel park.

[Scarecrow71]

12 hours ago, Superfluous J said:

That's like carrying your car into the house so you don't have to parallel park.

Well, I never learned how to parallel park.  Seriously.  I never learned.  In fact, when I took my driver's test all those years ago, the instructor was getting ready to make me parallel park...but no spaces were available.  He looked at me and said "Well, you've missed only 1 point so far, and this is the last thing, so...fudge it.  You're good.  Let's head inside and get your picture taken."  Yep, didn't have to do it.  So I never learned. 

[Scarecrow71]

Just checking in to say that I am still working on this.  I'm having a bit of difficulty with designing a rocket right now; I've got a lander and transfer stage, but designing something to get off Kerbin is posing issues.  I really don't want to have to pick up docking ports, but I might have to in order to get access to better tanks and engines.  Sans that, anybody have any advice?

[Superfluous J]

On 10/29/2021 at 8:17 PM, Scarecrow71 said:

Just checking in to say that I am still working on this.  I'm having a bit of difficulty with designing a rocket right now; I've got a lander and transfer stage, but designing something to get off Kerbin is posing issues.  I really don't want to have to pick up docking ports, but I might have to in order to get access to better tanks and engines.  Sans that, anybody have any advice?

No problem take your time, I'm not going anywhere Well actually I am, I'm taking a vacation this week and while I'll have internet access, I may be late on any replies.

My advice is, if you're going to Moho (or even Dres, the easiest one-world option) is to pick up docking ports. Rendezvous and docking is FAR easier than landing on Moho with a craft that can get back to Kerbin. Not to mention launching from Kerbin with a craft that can get to, land on, and return from Moho.

[Scarecrow71]

1 hour ago, Superfluous J said:

No problem take your time, I'm not going anywhere Well actually I am, I'm taking a vacation this week and while I'll have internet access, I may be late on any replies.

My advice is, if you're going to Moho (or even Dres, the easiest one-world option) is to pick up docking ports. Rendezvous and docking is FAR easier than landing on Moho with a craft that can get back to Kerbin. Not to mention launching from Kerbin with a craft that can get to, land on, and return from Moho.

Yeah, I may have to do that.  I've never docked before, and I know there's a pretty steep learning curve with that.  So I am gonna practice and do the in-game tutorial, while trying every design trick I can muster.

[18Watt]

This challenge looks interesting, I'm in!  Just spent a few hours wandering around KSC picking up science before my first launch.  I was dumbfounded at how much science you can get just from KSC.  

This will be quite a challenge for me.  I've always played using the MPL to fill out the tech tree quickly, so I've never had to extract as much science out of each mission as I can.  I'll probably miss a lot of science, just because I've never really looked for all of it.

Also, after playing for years (since 0.18), I've never actually returned to orbit from the surface of Eve.  Every Kerbal I've sent to Eve is still there.  So this challenge will force me to overcome my fear of Eve ascents.

[18Watt]

First Kerpollo Mission Compete! 

I'm planning on linking to my Mission Reports thread for my entries.  I completed the first Kerpollo mission, Orbit Kerbin.  I went all out, and managed to leave a capsule in LKO, then took the rest of the ship to Minmus, Ike, and Duna.  On the return, I docked with the capsule I left in LKO, and then returned to the surface of Kerbin.  Here's a link to the mission report.

In case folks don't want to swing over to that thread, I'll leave a few photos of my first launch here.  If you want all the details you'll need to check out the full mission report though.

Spoiler

1

2

3

4

 

[Scarecrow71]

Still working on this.  Decided to switch up and go to Dres first because it's the least dV heavy of the remaining planets.  I've also never docked before, so I'm trying to get through the tutorials and videos and such.  I have a ship in orbit of Kerbin right now, and need to fast-forward more than 2 years to the next transfer window.  I actually did that yesterday...but then warped too far and missed the time to successfully execute the node.  Thank god for quicksaves, which gives me the chance to try again today.

Also, @Superfluous J, I don't see in the first thread that I've gotten credit for Munpollo yet?

[18Watt]

Munpollo Complete!  @Superfluous J

Here's a link to my entry for my second Kerpollo mission.  This mission was to Mun, although I also visited a few other bodies as well (orbit only).

There's lots of screenshots in the Mission Logs thread posted above, but here's a few samples:

Spoiler

Orbiting Mun.

On Mun.

Riding the bull.

Rendezvous.

Other celestial bodies were visited.  But not landed on.  We're skimming the surface, but we didn't land.

As for which mission I'll do next- not sure yet.  But it definitely won't be Minmus.  I have something special planned for Minmus.

[Scarecrow71]

And once again, I have to start over with Drespollo.  This is like the 5th or 6th time I've had to revert all the way back to the pre-launch save.  Every time I get within a few meters of Dres something else throws the whole thing off.  I've experienced:

1. Running out of battery power even though the solar panels are pointing directly at the sun
2. Having the docking ports facing the wrong way
3. Running out of fuel for the return trip
4. My ship not being able to turn.  AT ALL.  And this continues to plague me; the ship turns extremely slow.
5. Explosions on the launchpad because, even with struts, the craft decides to start rotating as it sits on the pad.

I'm getting really frustrated here.  I know this isn't supposed to be easy, but has anyone else experienced any of this?  If so, how do I correct this?  I can, at times, launch, get to Dres, orbit the planet, and in one case I even landed.  But something always happens, and I can't figure out what it is I'm doing wrong.

[18Watt]

30 minutes ago, Scarecrow71 said:

I can't figure out what it is I'm doing wrong.

A single-launch Dres mission is quite challenging- even for veteran players.  There are a lot of game elements that need to be executed well to accomplish it.  I’ve been playing for years, and even now there is a lot of testing that would happen before I launched a Dres mission.

My suggestion is take a look at what things are causing problems, and address them.  You won’t figure everything out the first, or even tenth, try.

Practice rendezvousing and docking.  A lot.  Orbiting Dres is a frustrating place to learn to dock- I’d practice that around Kerbin or Mun.

The ability to get a large (humongous) ship to orbit is not easy either.  As you found out, just getting it to sit on the pad nicely can be challenging.  Most of my huge ships go back to the VAB 30-50 times before I get everything worked out.  Sometimes more.

Finally, the little things, like not having enough (or any) solar panels or parachutes, are frustrating, but eventually those errors will happen less.  Keep in mind the further away from the sun you are, the less efficient solar panels are.  What worked at Kerbin might not be enough at Dres.

Try to break down the problem into smaller problems.  With a single-launch Dres trip, you have to solve all the problems at once, which is frustrating, makes it hard to even see what problems you’re having.

[Scarecrow71]

@18Watt

That is exactly what I needed to hear.  I keep forgetting that vets have these same issues, and I get frustrated thinking I'm just doing it wrong.

I shall be back at this in the morning!

[18Watt]

Dresopollo Complete!  @Superfluous J

Link to the mission report:

Dresopollo is complete.  The return to Kerbin did not go very well, and has rattled my nerves a bit.

@Scarecrow71, Dres really challenged this veteran player.  Everything was going perfectly, and the fuel I had left should have been way more than needed to return to Kerbin.  However, I made some really poor maneuvers, and nearly had to scrap the entire mission because of it.  The answer would of course be to plan better transfers.  I'm not great at that.  A lot of practice would probably help me greatly.

[Scarecrow71]

@18Watt

And this is why I get frustrated.  I've been at this for more than 2 weeks now with Dres, and I can't even get there and back.  You've done it in a couple days.  Congrats, but it doesn't give me much hope that I'm gonna complete this anytime soon.

Speaking of not enough fuel, I landed on Dres this afternoon...and burned through more than half the fuel I brought with me to do the landing.  I over-engineered to have more dV than needed, and yet here I am now wondering if I can get back into space and re-dock...or do I have to go all the way back to the VAB and redesign the whole ship?  I hope it's not the second part there; I'm not sure I can take much more of having to revert all the way back to the beginning.

[sturmhauke]

The most challenging part of Dres for me is getting the encounter right. It's on an elliptical and inclined orbit, and has a small SOI compared to most planets. That makes it difficult to get an encounter in the first place, and more difficult to get one that isn't on a stupid approach vector that ends up costing a bunch of extra dV.

First off, if you're not using a transfer planner mod you should look into that, unless you like doing a bunch of orbital math by hand. It's possible to eyeball the transfer, and people have done it and more in the Caveman challenges, but that's a specific brand of crazy that I'm not into.

Once you've figured that part out, it's also important to understand how to do midcourse correction burns. The further away you are from the target, the harder it is to adjust your initial trajectory for a good encounter. I generally make a correction at approximately the midpoint between planets to get a more favorable encounter, and again on entering the SOI.

What constitutes a favorable encounter, you might ask? It's one where on close approach to the body in question, your relative velocity is as close to 0 as possible. This means approaching in the same direction as the body is moving at the time of arrival. If you approach at a large angle, or especially retrograde, that adds to the dV you need to spend on your capture burn.

[Scarecrow71]

30 minutes ago, sturmhauke said:

The most challenging part of Dres for me is getting the encounter right. It's on an elliptical and inclined orbit, and has a small SOI compared to most planets. That makes it difficult to get an encounter in the first place, and more difficult to get one that isn't on a stupid approach vector that ends up costing a bunch of extra dV.

First off, if you're not using a transfer planner mod you should look into that, unless you like doing a bunch of orbital math by hand. It's possible to eyeball the transfer, and people have done it and more in the Caveman challenges, but that's a specific brand of crazy that I'm not into.

Once you've figured that part out, it's also important to understand how to do midcourse correction burns. The further away you are from the target, the harder it is to adjust your initial trajectory for a good encounter. I generally make a correction at approximately the midpoint between planets to get a more favorable encounter, and again on entering the SOI.

What constitutes a favorable encounter, you might ask? It's one where on close approach to the body in question, your relative velocity is as close to 0 as possible. This means approaching in the same direction as the body is moving at the time of arrival. If you approach at a large angle, or especially retrograde, that adds to the dV you need to spend on your capture burn.

Yeah, I use MechJeb to do the transfer planning for everything beyond Mun.  But even MJ has issues with Dres; PorkChop selection errors due to ejection calculation, and sometimes it won't plot right until you are within days of the window.  But I have learned how to use it to do the planning, so there is that.

I always do course corrections, primarily because  I have seen MJ give me one value for Pe on an encounter only to see something totally different when I get close.  Today, for example, I did one halfway to Dres to pull myself within 4 million meters, and then a second one at the 90% mark to pull within 100,000m.

The oddest thing about my attempt today is that I still have 109 m/s of dV in my transfer stage, which I want to use to at least start the transfer home.  But I'm not sure I can get the lander off Dres and into a rendezvous with the mother ship.  The lander has ~700 m/s of dV left, but I'm not sure that pair of Ant engines will do the trick.  Which means another restart, but this time all the way back to lander design.

[18Watt]

Minpollo Complete!   @Superfluous J

Did Minmus with a SSTO spaceplane, and brought back every single part I launched with.  The full documentation is at the Mission Report linked below.

A few screenshots:

Spoiler

Deploying the lander.

Landed.

Docking.

Landing back at KSC.

 

[Scarecrow71]

And, once again, back to lander design.  I landed on Dres and had ~600 m/s of dV remaining, and I was able to get back to ~7,000m circularized.  Unfortunately, I needed about 500 m/s of dV more than I had at that point to rendezvous and dock.  This is odd, considering I allocated 1.5x the amount the dV map shows I should have needed to do the entire landing and docking.  I think my issue is with the engines I used; not enough TWR, which means I burned far more upon landing than I should have, and then the same upon return to orbit.

Either way, I am still working on getting to and returning from Dres.  I haven't even attempted docking yet; I have to get to a point where I can get to and land on Dres, and then get back into orbit and rendezvous with the mothership before I try docking.  One small step for Kerbals...