Forced Arbitration Agreement - What is it? Why? Opt-Out Letter Template

[Gargamel]

1 minute ago, Cheif Operations Director said:

Again HOW do I do this. I'm on steam so it auto saves when I hit the play button it asks me to accept the new EULA. 

Move your ksp directory out from under the Steam folders, and run the ksp.exe directly.   That way you can avoid any mod breaking updates while also avoiding the new EULA. 

[Lisias]

1 hour ago, Cheif Operations Director said:

Again HOW do I do this. I'm on steam so it auto saves when I hit the play button it asks me to accept the new EULA. 

Ow… Now I see. Sorry.

@Gargamel''s way is the easiest, if you wants to settle down to 1.6.1 . You can also use the Beta Program, where Squad twists  the system by publishing older versions - on your Game Inventory, right-click Kerbal Space Program, select Properties and then look for the "Betas" on the Tab. Ignore that "private betas" thingy, you want the top Drop-Down items.

Alternatively, if you are on the mood to deep dive into Steam's guts, you can use the download_depot command from the Console. More info here: https://steamcommunity.com/app/220200/discussions/0/1729827777347272311/?l=russian

Edited March 25, 2019 by Lisias
tyops! Who would thought of that? :P

[Cheif Operations Director]

3 hours ago, Gargamel said:

Move your ksp directory out from under the Steam folders, and run the ksp.exe directly.   That way you can avoid any mod breaking updates while also avoiding the new EULA. 

 

1 hour ago, Lisias said:

Ow… Now I see. Sorry.

@Gargamel''s way is the easiest, if you wants to settle down to 1.6.1 . You can also use the Beta Program, where Squad twists  the system by publishing older versions - on your Game Inventory, right-click Kerbal Space Program, select Properties and then look for the "Betas" on the Tab. Ignore that "private betas" thingy, you want the top Drop-Down items.

Alternatively, if you are on the mood to deep dive into Steam's guts, you can use the download_depot command from the Console. More info here: https://steamcommunity.com/app/220200/discussions/0/1729827777347272311/?l=russian

I'll do this when I get a chance 

[Space Kadet]

:| 

Edited March 28, 2019 by Space Kadet
Redacted by moderator

[Lisias]

9 hours ago, Space Kadet said:

first off let me say that you seem to be not readong what i linkes, and say i need citations, when ive literally linked the EU law and 2 main precidents in US law that govern this. 

This is the list of your posts on this thread:

Spoiler

1. https://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/182829-forced-arbitration-agreement-what-is-it-why-opt-out-letter-template/&tab=comments#comment-3558197
2. https://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/182829-forced-arbitration-agreement-what-is-it-why-opt-out-letter-template/&page=2&tab=comments#comment-3558369
3. https://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/182829-forced-arbitration-agreement-what-is-it-why-opt-out-letter-template/&page=3&tab=comments#comment-3561215
4. https://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/182829-forced-arbitration-agreement-what-is-it-why-opt-out-letter-template/&page=4&tab=comments#comment-3565070
5. https://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/182829-forced-arbitration-agreement-what-is-it-why-opt-out-letter-template/&page=4&tab=comments#comment-3567740

And this is the only one where you provide a link, but without any kind of citation:

https://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/182829-forced-arbitration-agreement-what-is-it-why-opt-out-letter-template/&page=4&tab=comments#comment-3567727

So, let me cite somethng from your link to you:

Quote

EU countries must make sure that consumers know how to exercise these rights under national law, and must have procedures under which business may be prevented from using unfair terms.

SO, and again, you need to cite your country's law on the subject - and since TTI's is a foreign company (unless they have a Office on your country), you are subject by New York Convention your country is signatory. It's pointless to pinpoint EU "generic" guidelines, you need to refer to your country laws, specifically, the laws on the New York Convention. What I did for mine here, by the way.

Since I don't even know in which country you are, I cannot assist you finding the interesting and relevant bits of your own legislation, as I did for you on the EU link you provided (apparently, without reading it properly).

 

9 hours ago, Space Kadet said:

Story time, once apon a time, i got a raw deal from a us tech company, lets say there name rhymes wit bladobe. as and their particular EULA had this clause in it about arbitration. my solicitor (lawer in Scotland) went through all of this and basically the judge (when it got the the Eu courts because of appeals) came down on my side. part of the judgement  (that i dont have because this was over 15 years ago) 

Nice history. But things change in 15 years, so I advise you to redo your research on the subject. US Companies are "learning", it's not wise to plain call them "idiots" because you manage to find a flaw on their EULA 15 years ago.

And, by the way, "Bladobe" apparently had offices on the EU, perhaps on your country. This changes everything.

 

9 hours ago, Space Kadet said:

now i asked my solicitor about this, and it was explained to me, that the EU court dose this because large companies try their luck, and might have tried to sue me in the US, even thow i had never been there. and putting that in, would basically mean that all id have to do was to get a local lawer to goto court and show the EU judgment to get the case thrown out. 

What have no effect on USA courts if they insist on suing you there, unless you do it by the New York Convention aware local laws. I.e., they still have how to sue you "in absence" there (don't know the proper term on English). They are bound to the terms your country signed on the New York Convention, and just by these terms - EU rules doesn't apply to them: you can still be prosecuted on U.S.A. if whatever they have against you worths the cost (and public backslash, if any - don't expect it from me).

But, and again, your story appears to describe a case against a local company, or a company with local offices. This made them subject to your local laws directly, you don't need the New York Convention to sue them - what can be inferred from your history.

 

9 hours ago, Space Kadet said:

sorry for the long post, but this is how the law works in the EU and the US, and someone might need this one day, and i dont want them to get miss information. 

No. THIS is how law works on international affairs. You are mislead and misleading.

[snip]

Edited March 25, 2019 by Snark
Redacted by moderator

[Snark]

Some content has been removed from the thread.

Folks, it's fine to engage in lively debate.  It's fine to disagree with people, even vehemently.

But do please remember to keep it civil.  Personal comments are inappropriate, and it is never okay to resort to insults or name-calling.  Address the post, not the poster.  If you can't make your point like a civil adult, then hold your tongue.

Furthermore, once moderators have redacted something, it's done.  Please do not attempt to reference what-was-said-before-the-moderators-cleaned-it-up, because that rather defeats the point of moderating.

Thank you for your understanding.

 

[Jestersage]

I think the simplest takeaway for everyone is that, regardless of where you are, you are screwed, and will be screwed. In fact, just by using this forum, you may be in the future subject to T2's whim (and I would not be surprise if one day, they will make it so that any challenge that forbid DLC will not be allowed in here)

My suggetsion: just play as need, don't invest too much, and prepare to jump ship, be it this forum or the game.

[Chel]

I personally don't really care about this as I'm not the type of guy to get in legal issues with TTI, but if you want to opt out then go ahead. It's your choice

[Poodmund]

I find it quite funny how much "debate" has gone on in this thread when a simple posting of a letter to T2I would suffice in all cases to those bothered.

[Cheif Operations Director]

2 hours ago, Poodmund said:

I find it quite funny how much "debate" has gone on in this thread when a simple posting of a letter to T2I would suffice in all cases to those bothered.

The problem is the principle, why should we pay to send a letter to T2 to opt out of legal trouble. T2 has been a pain when It comes to the EULA. Nobody here wants legeal trouble and we all love this game.

[Jestersage]

2 hours ago, Cheif Operations Director said:

 The problem is the principle, why should we pay to send a letter to T2 to opt out of legal trouble. T2 has been a pain when It comes to the EULA. Nobody here wants legeal trouble and we all love this game.

Buy their DLC, stop pushing for mod and exclude DLC, and they will keep quiet. Community ain't exactly friendly to T2.

[Lisias]

7 hours ago, Poodmund said:

I find it quite funny how much "debate" has gone on in this thread when a simple posting of a letter to T2I would suffice in all cases to those bothered.

It's not (only) about this specific case, but about the practice per se. Try to imagine every single service provider of yours trying something like this. Now try to think how life will be if you have to send one or two letters/day to every single service provider you ever contracted.

Let's play Devil's Advocate. What you think your employer should do if you send him an email telling him "From the next payment and forward, I'll be working 4 days a week. You should sent a hand written letter to my grandma in Alaska before the next payment if you want to opt out". Assuming your manager is completely idiotic and you walk away with this stunt, next month he will be flooded with similar stunts from the whole company.

See? This is exactly the same thing.

Edited March 26, 2019 by Lisias

[Jestersage]

2 hours ago, Lisias said:

Let's play Devil's Advocate. What you think your employer should do if you send him an email telling him "From the next payment and forward, I'll be working 4 days a week. You should sent a hand written letter to my grandma in Alaska before the next payment if you want to opt out". Assuming your manager is completely idiotic and you walk away with this stunt, next month he will be flooded with similar stunts from the whole company.

Except you don't have the power. I will FTFY

Quote

From Employer: For the next payment and forward, you'll be working 6 days for 10 hours, regardless of what your law say, because we are based in China. You should sent a hand written letter to my boss in Beijing before the next payment if you want to opt out"

If employees refuse this stunt? Close shop. They have enough workforce in China. Or in our case, enough market from China. Need me to remind you about a game called Devotion?

Edited March 26, 2019 by Jestersage

[Lisias]

5 hours ago, Jestersage said:

Except you don't have the power. I will FTFY

If employees refuse this stunt? Close shop. They have enough workforce in China. Or in our case, enough market from China. Need me to remind you about a game called Devotion?

FTFY²  

Quote

A WEEKLONG STRIKE by China Airlines pilots over the Lunar New Year holiday came to an end yesterday, after negotiations on Thursday between China Airlines management and the Taoyuan Pilot’s Union that is representing the pilots.

https://newbloommag.net/2019/02/15/china-airline-pilot-strike-end/

People are not that powerless as you are implying.  

But you got it right in a sense: you, alone, are powerless. And that's the reason that hypothetical employer from my hypothetical parable will swiftly handle the situation as fast as he/she can.

Edited March 26, 2019 by Lisias
tyops. as usulla.

[Jestersage]

Okay, going down a different line of discussion: How would this apply to China and Canada?

I assume Canada will be identical follow US.

[Lisias]

On 3/27/2019 at 4:08 PM, Jestersage said:

Okay, going down a different line of discussion: How would this apply to China and Canada?

I assume Canada will be identical follow US.

Here:

http://www.newyorkconvention.org/implementing+act+-+china

http://www.newyorkconvention.org/implementing+act+-+canada

You need to read each country's specific New York Convention rules.

Australia, Canada, New Zealand and UK are also working on an agreement between them: CANZUK. It's offtopic, but since you mentioned one of these countries, I though I worths mention it.

[cut off an unrelated piece of information. Really, I should try to avoid answering this kind of subjects while working. Constant interruptions while arguing does not promote cohesion... Sorry.]

 

Edited March 30, 2019 by Lisias
Uh... Gone offtopic while answering the guy.

[jwenting]

On 3/12/2019 at 10:28 PM, soulsource said:

I'm rather certain such clauses in an EULA aren't legal and therefore void in many countries.

Edit: "The EU requires Member States’ courts to presume that the arbitration agreement in consumer contracts is an unfair term, if it was not individually negotiated by the parties after the dispute arose" - http://arbitrationblog.kluwerarbitration.com/2016/02/25/consumer-arbitration-will-the-two-different-worlds-across-the-ocean-converge/

Which is irrelevant if the EULA states that a specific legal framework applies that does allow for it, as you are now bound by a contract that's not enforced using EU law.

[Clockwork13]

I'm not sure if someone said this already, but it's quite shady how you're supposed to physically mail something to them, which they know no one will do. I remember when Discord added an arbitration clause, you were at least able to opt out of it via email.

[soulsource]

4 hours ago, jwenting said:

Which is irrelevant if the EULA states that a specific legal framework applies that does allow for it, as you are now bound by a contract that's not enforced using EU law. 

Which is also null and void, at least in Germany: https://www.hk24.de/produktmarken/beratung-service/recht_und_steuern/wirtschaftsrecht/vertragsrecht/allgemeine-geschaeftsbedingungen/1156958

[jwenting]

so you say a German law states that any and all contracts between a German person and a non-German person are by definition governed by German law?

I seriously doubt that's the case as if it were most companies wouldn't want to do any business with German persons at all.

2 hours ago, Clockwork13 said:

I'm not sure if someone said this already, but it's quite shady how you're supposed to physically mail something to them, which they know no one will do. I remember when Discord added an arbitration clause, you were at least able to opt out of it via email.

Not shady at all, really. Email isn't accepted as a legally binding document in many jurisdictions.
There are ways to make it acceptable in court, but those require a lot of extra work and make the process of handling the email quite cumbersome.
I work for a company that has such a system on the market, and it requires a LOT of steps and expensive processes to guarantee that what's sent is what's received, that there are certified backups of every communication in the chain in such a way that the entire email chain can be restored, and that it's all stored in a tamper-proof way by a trusted third party (us, in this case).

I seriously doubt the opt-out email you sent to Discord would stand up if challenged in court unless it went through a system like that.

[Lisias]

54 minutes ago, jwenting said:

so you say a German law states that any and all contracts between a German person and a non-German person are by definition governed by German law?

I seriously doubt that's the case as if it were most companies wouldn't want to do any business with German persons at all.

No. He's saying that a German citizen is only governed by German Law - and no other.

You don't agree with German Law? Don't do business with German People.

It's not different from USA, British, China or Venezuela - you can't impose your country laws on foreign citizens - and this is for mutual protection.

[Cheif Operations Director]

May I point out that from a philosophical point that the idea of having to mail in your opt out is insane. 

 

Imagine if a TV provider sold you a box that transmitted to their stations had a "EULA" one day and changed it the next day. The new EULA said that they can spy on you and that if you have a problem with it you can not use the legal systems but our system. Then it said we are changing this in three days. Finally it stated no refunds. Now what? No you have a usless box because it can not use the radio stations. 

[jwenting]

19 hours ago, Lisias said:

No. He's saying that a German citizen is only governed by German Law - and no other.

You don't agree with German Law? Don't do business with German People.

It's not different from USA, British, China or Venezuela - you can't impose your country laws on foreign citizens - and this is for mutual protection.

Every contract states what jurisdiction is valid when you sign it. So yes, he's stating that any contract that was signed under a jurisdiction outside Germany is null and void in Germany.

I wonder how that'd hold up in court, and which court it'd have to be tested in anyway.

 

International law is extremely complex.

[Lisias]

1 hour ago, jwenting said:

Every contract states what jurisdiction is valid when you sign it. So yes, he's stating that any contract that was signed under a jurisdiction outside Germany is null and void in Germany.

He wasn't out of Germany when he accepted the EULA, so as far as I know, it's valid. Germans would not be bound to pay for services while traveling if he is right - so, besides not knowing the German Law ( and assuming this is his line of arguing, I'm not double checking it - I'm just following your line of thought), I think we can be pretty sure that Germans are bound to contracts signed or accepted outside Germany.  After all, International Credit Cards are not illegal on Germany, right?  

[However a German is only governed by the German Law when living in Germany. Any clausule on the contract that's not enforceable by German Law is null and void. Don't sign contracts with Germans over the Internet if you don't want to cope with German Laws.]

And there's a additional detail : a German can be prosecuted by a native of another country under the later's country laws. Such german would be sued "in absence", and can even be convicted. But good luck trying to enforce that conviction - the worst that could happen is that former avoiding traveling to any country with a extradition agreement with the country in question. You would like to Google about a recent extradition from an Italian that used to live on Brazil until recently.

Of course, German Government is not stupid. Any rogue country that would harass a Deutschmann by using the local laws would face some serious backslash by Germany and possibly the other New York Convention signatories. It will depend of how much money are involved - remember, it's always about the money.

 

1 hour ago, jwenting said:

I wonder how that'd hold up in court, and which court it'd have to be tested in anyway.

Something like this, I think:

https://www.ft.com/content/82d17d1e-cae2-11e8-b276-b9069bde0956

Interesting case: a British living in France being arrested on USA, a German trying a financial stunt on UK and using the USA banking system for smoke and mirrors, you name it.  

Assuming the money involved justifies the stunt, all of this is possible. However, I find hard to believe than an EULA from a 30 bucks computer program would manage to get this kind of attention.

 

1 hour ago, jwenting said:

International law is extremely complex.

This is an understatement, sir.

Edited April 1, 2019 by Lisias
tyops. as usulla. And and addendum [in italics]

[MaxPeck]

I’d like to weigh in on two things here:

1. All your mods are belong to Squad.  While they might be individual works to you, they are dependent upon KSP to run, which makes them derivative.  Squad/T2 are pretty clear about this.  If you make an excel spreadsheet to calculate dV, that’s yours. If you write a cfg or dll to do it in game, it’s theirs. That’s why I laugh at all the licensing drama on here. All mod licenses are ARR Squad/T2 by default, as they fall under the KSP ARR license as derivative works. 

2.  The EULA is unenforceable everywhere. All you have to say is “I never saw it, prove I did”. Well, MaxPeck saw it. “Who?  That’s not me.  Prove it is, and that I was at the keyboard when whoever that is was logged in”. Checkmate.  You can’t keep terms of a contract secret from one party, and you can’t alter the terms of the contract without consent of all parties.  You cannot assume consent because I didn’t take a negative action, I have to actively give consent after notification of terms.  Otherwise you could do all kinds of stuff to people through incremental changes, assuming tacit consent by no objection of the affected party. Suddenly they own title to your house and car and you’ve agreed to a garnishment of your wages because they wrote it in the EULA and you didn’t object.  Can’t happen.  

So calm down, it’s not the Spanish Inquisition, it’s just some words on the internet that you never saw.