Grammar--Affect vs Effect

[YNM]

13 hours ago, Klapaucius said:

It would depend on whether it is possessive or not.

I'm referring to their usage on road signs, which are often not possessive. But many examples exists otherwise...

6 hours ago, kerbiloid said:

English is one of the finest and easiest compared to many others...

Having my native language from the Austronesian language family, most (if not all) other language families are far more convoluted when it comes to spelling and pronounciation... We only have like 6 different vowels, and we don't have consecutive consonants at all (apart from some adopted words and terms).

Edited June 3, 2019 by YNM

[Superfluous J]

14 hours ago, YNM said:

Is it Heavy Goods Vehicles (HGVs) or Heavy Goods Vehicle's (HGV's) ?

Dealer's choice. To avoid ambiguity (is that multiple HGVs or a single HGVS?) I prefer the apostrophe.

[YNM]

7 minutes ago, 5thHorseman said:

Dealer's choice.

So you're saying that the road belongs to HGVs ? We're talking of their usage on road signs (which are often not possessive).

14 hours ago, Klapaucius said:

Not even close.

I know, but my native language is much, much simpler.

Edited June 3, 2019 by YNM

[kerbiloid]

From one of Caucasus languages vocabulary.

Dear friends!
Let me express my heartfelt appreciation of the reception you gave me!
Best regards!

Spoiler

Original text, Cyrillic alphabet.
ныбджэгъу лъапIэхэр!
сыгу къыздеIэу опсэу осэIо дахэу укъызэрэспэгъокIыгъэмкIэ!
шIу шъуапэкIэ къикIэу шъущэI!

By letters:
н-ы-б-дж-э-гъу лъ-а-пI-э-х-э-р!
с-ы-г-у къ-ы-з-д-е-I-э-у о-п-с-э-у о-с-э-I-о д-а-х-э-у у-къ-ы-з-э-р-э-с-п-э-гъ-о-кI-ы-гъ-э-м-кI-э!
шI-у шъу-а-п-э-кI-э къ-и-кI-э-у шъу-щ-э-I!

Basically the letters mean:
дж = hard dzh (like in "Jah", not like in "Jesus")
-I- = glottal aspiration (like forced "h" but more wheezing), will mark it "^KH"
-ъ- = glottal stop, will mark it "^Ъ"
-у after consonants = not really sounding like "u" or "w", but you have to keep the lips together while pronouncing the consonant itself, will mark it "^W"
I = isolated glottal aspiration
къ = k with glottal stop
кI = k with glottal aspiration
гъ = g with glottal stop
гъу = g with glottal stop and lips together
пI = p with glottal aspiration
шI = sh (like in "sharp") with glottal aspiration
шIу = sh (like in "sharp") with glottal aspiration and lips together
щ = sh like in "sushi", will mark it "SH^J"
лъ = L with glottal stop
ы = very open "i", like Polish "y" or prolonged English "i" from "tip".
у = a brief sound between "u" and "w", will mark it "W"

So.

N-Y-B-DZH-E-G^ЪW  L^Ъ-A-P^KH-E-H-E-R!
S-Y-G-U K^Ъ-Y-Z-D-E-^KH-E-W O-P-S-E-W O-S-E-^KH-O D-A-H-E-W U-K^Ъ-Y-Z-E-R-E-S-P-E-G^Ъ-O-K^KH-Y-G^Ъ-E-M-K^KH-E!
SH^KH-U SH^ЪW-A-P-E-K^KH-E K^Ъ-I-K^KH-E-U SH^Ъ-U-SH^J-E-^KH!

Now, all together:

NYBDZHEG^ЪW  L^ЪAP^KHEHER!
SYGU  K^ЪYZDE^KHEW OPSEW OSE^KHO DAHEW UK^ЪYZERESPEG^ЪOK^KHYG^ЪEMK^KHE!
SH^KHU SH^ЪWAPEK^KHE K^ЪIK^KHEU SH^ЪUSH^JE^KH !

Edited June 3, 2019 by kerbiloid

[Klapaucius]

19 minutes ago, YNM said:

So you're saying that the road belongs to HGVs ? We're talking of their usage on road signs (which are often not possessive).

I know, but my native language is much, much simpler.

It may be on a road sign, but that does not mean it is proper usage.

[Hotel26]

Here's one: ensure, assure, insure.  Used interchangeably.

• ensure: make an outcome as certain as possible
• assure: make people believe there will be no bad outcome
• insure: enter a contract to be paid compensation in the event of a bad outcome

Good grammar is just like good manners; practising them just gets you upset with all the people who don't...

 

Edited June 3, 2019 by Hotel26

[YNM]

10 minutes ago, Klapaucius said:

It may be on a road sign, but that does not mean it is proper usage.

"No HGVs above 5 tonnes"

"HGVs use right lane"

that sort of stuff.

Edited June 3, 2019 by YNM

[Superfluous J]

4 hours ago, YNM said:

So you're saying that the road belongs to HGVs ?

No, I mean the designer of the sign gets to pick. And they should pick based on if the sign is less confusing with or without the apostrophe.

What I'm really saying is there are dos and don'ts. Or maybe that's do's and don't's. Do's and don'ts? I don't know. Anyway there are exceptions and they exist for reasons and in a language as confusing as ours following the rules blindly will get you nowhere.

No where?

[YNM]

8 hours ago, 5thHorseman said:

No, I mean the designer of the sign gets to pick.

... in which case it often ends up having the grocer's apostrophe... esp. when they just think that signs are not that important part of the road.

[benzman]

Don't get me started on 'less' or 'fewer'.

[MDZhB]

Quote

That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

If it was good enough for Thomas Jefferson...

Also, on the topic of hard to write and hard to read languages, Japanese has to be way up there. Two different syllabaries, each basically redundant given the other, plus ~2000 Chinese-derived characters for the common standard of fluency (and many more following higher education, not to mention the ~1000 used for names (there might be overlap there, I don't remember.)) But it can't be as easy as Chinese, where most characters have one pronunciation, oh no. Most Japanese kanji have at least two, if not more pronunciations.

Take, for example, the character 上, meaning "up." According to my dictionary, it can be pronounced as: "ue", "uwa", "kami", "a" (as in ageru or agaru and various derivations thereof,) "nobo" (as in noboru, noboseru, and nobosu,) "tatematsu" (as in tatematsuru,) as well as "jou", "shou", and "shan" in various Chinese loan words.

This is maybe a bit of an unfair characterization, as 上 is a little bit outstanding among kanji, and the two syllabaries (hiragana and katakana) do useful work in differentiating things, but it's still leaps and bounds crazier than English spelling.

And, call it intuition or experience or something, but I think there are more patterns in English spelling than people give it credit for. Sure, some things are pretty strange, but in general I don't think it's too hard to guess a word's pronunciation from its spelling. Try to guess what 女神 is supposed to be (tricked you, it's megami, not joshin.)

[Klapaucius]

3 hours ago, MDZhB said:

If it was good enough for Thomas Jefferson...

Actually you are misreading the quote.  Jefferson is using effect in the sense I mentioned above--as a verb meaning "to bring about". 

"That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect (bring about) their Safety and Happiness."

He is not saying it will affect their safety and happiness; that would simply imply some change is happening, and it is not clear what that change is. Rather, the people have rights and are in control of their own destiny.  If they chose to alter or abolish a government, they shall found a new government that will bring about their safety and happiness.  He is enjoining them to do so, and there is an implied call to action.  That is the nuance going on there and why it is important to distinguish between the two.

Jefferson chose his words very carefully.

Edited June 6, 2019 by Klapaucius

[MDZhB]

18 minutes ago, Klapaucius said:

Actually you are misreading the quote.  Jefferson is using effect in the sense I mentioned above--as a verb meaning "to bring about".

I will be 100% honest with you: I did not read the original post

I did, however, use the Declaration of Independence recently to prove to my mother that it is perfectly acceptable to use "and," "but," or "or" at the beginning of a sentence. I don't mind a little prescriptive grammar, unless it:

1. Is wrong
2. Tries to pretend that there is one and only one way to speak a language and everyone who doesn't use that way 100% of the time is wrong and stupid

[Klapaucius]

5 hours ago, MDZhB said:

I will be 100% honest with you: I did not read the original post

I did, however, use the Declaration of Independence recently to prove to my mother that it is perfectly acceptable to use "and," "but," or "or" at the beginning of a sentence. I don't mind a little prescriptive grammar, unless it:

1. Is wrong
2. Tries to pretend that there is one and only one way to speak a language and everyone who doesn't use that way 100% of the time is wrong and stupid

I actually agree with you. My issue is:  is the change for a stylistic reason or is it just laziness?  "To boldly go where no one has gone before" sounds way better than "To go boldly where no one has gone before."

Language evolves and changes; words become obsolete: When did you ever read on the KSP forum, "Verily, I would fain launch a rocket to Minmus if thou wouldst challenge me to do so"? and the reason English does so well is partially its flexibility.  

But I appreciate nuance, and that is precious.  

 

As for beginning a sentence with and, but and or...  It is totally legal, but I think sometimes when learning to write we are given rules to follow that get us thinking about good sentence construction. Talented writers will advance beyond those and discard them as need be, just as a painter, having learned the art of perspective, may deliberately ignore it. But having that base knowledge informs their decision to do so.

[Superfluous J]

Grammar rules being broken by master authors, or even everyday authors with flashes of insight, is very different from grammar rules being broken because you're too lazy to do it correctly.

[JERONIMO]

how dare ya'll affect the effect of my empire

[HebaruSan]

"Enormity" does not mean "enormousness."

[HebaruSan]

"Disinterested" does not mean "uninterested."

[WinkAllKerb'']

On 6/3/2019 at 2:26 PM, kerbiloid said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Original text, Cyrillic alphabet.
ныбджэгъу лъапIэхэр!
сыгу къыздеIэу опсэу осэIо дахэу укъызэрэспэгъокIыгъэмкIэ!
шIу шъуапэкIэ къикIэу шъущэI!

By letters:
н-ы-б-дж-э-гъу лъ-а-пI-э-х-э-р!
с-ы-г-у къ-ы-з-д-е-I-э-у о-п-с-э-у о-с-э-I-о д-а-х-э-у у-къ-ы-з-э-р-э-с-п-э-гъ-о-кI-ы-гъ-э-м-кI-э!
шI-у шъу-а-п-э-кI-э къ-и-кI-э-у шъу-щ-э-I!

Basically the letters mean:
дж = hard dzh (like in "Jah", not like in "Jesus")
-I- = glottal aspiration (like forced "h" but more wheezing), will mark it "^KH"
-ъ- = glottal stop, will mark it "^Ъ"
-у after consonants = not really sounding like "u" or "w", but you have to keep the lips together while pronouncing the consonant itself, will mark it "^W"
I = isolated glottal aspiration
къ = k with glottal stop
кI = k with glottal aspiration
гъ = g with glottal stop
гъу = g with glottal stop and lips together
пI = p with glottal aspiration
шI = sh (like in "sharp") with glottal aspiration
шIу = sh (like in "sharp") with glottal aspiration and lips together
щ = sh like in "sushi", will mark it "SH^J"
лъ = L with glottal stop
ы = very open "i", like Polish "y" or prolonged English "i" from "tip".
у = a brief sound between "u" and "w", will mark it "W"

So.

N-Y-B-DZH-E-G^ЪW  L^Ъ-A-P^KH-E-H-E-R!
S-Y-G-U K^Ъ-Y-Z-D-E-^KH-E-W O-P-S-E-W O-S-E-^KH-O D-A-H-E-W U-K^Ъ-Y-Z-E-R-E-S-P-E-G^Ъ-O-K^KH-Y-G^Ъ-E-M-K^KH-E!
SH^KH-U SH^ЪW-A-P-E-K^KH-E K^Ъ-I-K^KH-E-U SH^Ъ-U-SH^J-E-^KH!

Now, all together:

NYBDZHEG^ЪW  L^ЪAP^KHEHER!
SYGU  K^ЪYZDE^KHEW OPSEW OSE^KHO DAHEW UK^ЪYZERESPEG^ЪOK^KHYG^ЪEMK^KHE!
SH^KHU SH^ЪWAPEK^KHE K^ЪIK^KHEU SH^ЪUSH^JE^KH !

finally someone that love sabir and pidgin as much as i do xDr

[WinkAllKerb'']

hum, bump because "learnt" isn't "learned" neither "Learn ! head" & while weirdly it always do ...

[MDZhB]

scratch all this grammar rules nonsense, let's just all learn from WinkAllKerb" and talk like them.

[Superfluous J]

1 hour ago, WinkAllKerb'' said:

"Learn ! head"

No YOUR a learn head!

Edited June 10, 2019 by 5thHorseman
Added the word "no", bolded "you're", and then changed it to "your" to keep in the theme of the thread.

[purpleivan]

How about "very unique" and "fairly historic"... ugh!

[Superfluous J]

1 hour ago, purpleivan said:

How about "very unique" and "fairly historic"... ugh!

Neither of these bother me. It also never bothered me that you could have multiple favorites in certain software and websites.

I know those words are supposed to be binary (it's either unique or not) or singular (so you like those 5 things a lot but which is your favorite?), but understand the phrasing exactly and realize that any other wording would be clunky.

[YNM]

Spoiler

 

So, HGVs or HGV's ?

Edited June 11, 2019 by YNM