KSP 2 Multiplayer Discussion Thread

[darthgently]

2 hours ago, SkyFall2489 said:

This is all just getting way too confusing... If it's confusing in the planning stage, imagine how confusing it would be for the players! That's why I say to keep it simple with subspace warp - a tried and true solution that is not too far off form KSP1's timewarp. Why reinvent the wheel?

Could you either summarize subspace warp or throw out a link to where it is described?  I need to catch up.  Searching the forums isn't working for me for finding where it was discussed.  Thanks

[Vl3d]

[snip]

3 hours ago, Pthigrivi said:

you cant pluck things on and off and desynch them from the timeline

Of course you can. You do it all the time when you time warp to transfer window in orbit.

3 hours ago, Pthigrivi said:

thats not how rendezvous work

As long as you plan the journey and exit the multiplayer bubble you can do whatever you want in map view. Create and execute your maneuver nodes. You sync to your destination when you arrive.

3 hours ago, Pthigrivi said:

In a consistent-timeline ‘last seen’ paradigm things don’t pop in and out of existence.

I have not been taking about that. What if you warp from Kerbin to Duna and then just warp back? To sync back to the Kerbing multiplayer bubble you have to be gone from that reality. You cannot meet your recorded self and other players can't see two of you. Besides, can you imagine what it would mean for a server to record and replay each player action for every other players?

2 hours ago, t_v said:

5 hours ago, Vl3d said:

Player B that arrives later has to adapt to things already built by player A. You know, like in reality. This preserves all causality.

Technically, your solution is second-come first serve since the player that arrived later (player A)

What you said makes no sense. I literally said Player B arrives later, then you wrote that Player A arrives later.

Edited April 10, 2022 by Vanamonde

[Bej Kerman]

[snip]

Not being able to time warp near a planet is like one of the central points of this discussion, no?

 

Edited April 10, 2022 by Vanamonde

[t_v]

Okay. Let’s explain some things. 
 

15 minutes ago, Vl3d said:

I never said that. You're just making things up.

So, one last time, explain in what cases you are and are not allowed to time warp. Because it sounds like you can time warp whenever you have a maneuver, in which case what even is the point of a server centralized time?

 

16 minutes ago, Vl3d said:

What you said makes no sense. I literally said Player B arrives later, then you wrote that Player A arrives later.

Ok, my turn to explain. In your previous post, you were referencing an example that I had where player A arrives later in-game while player B arrives earlier in-game but later in real life. So, player A arrives later, but player B (who arrives earlier in-game) has to contend with the actions of player A who arrived earlier in real life. This is hand waved away with the spinning up to synchronous time but it doesn’t change the fact that the person who got there faster and earlier in-game ends up being later. I’m totally fine with this, my own solution has that and doesn’t even try to justify it by spinning the craft, but as I said before, the only solution that truly preserves causality even when accounting real life actions is the first one. 

[Guest]

49 minutes ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

Interesting.  I figured it would be a more lengthy process 

I'm not talking about the whole multiplayer being done, finished and ready to ship, just solving the "timewarp problem", arguments go way faster when you can try in practice what you're talking about on paper.

[Vl3d]

28 minutes ago, t_v said:

So, one last time, explain in what cases you are and are not allowed to time warp. Because it sounds like you can time warp whenever you have a maneuver, in which case what even is the point of a server centralized time?

Allowed to time warp:

You can time warp after you make orbit and plan a journey with a destination with which you can sync and commit to the journey.

You time-warp when on the journey.

You can time-warp in deep space. In deep space you are allowed to come out of time-warp to change destination and maneuver nodes.

You can time warp when you're not in a multiplayer real-time bubble (non-team-members).

Not allowed to time warp:

You can't time-warp when playing inside the multiplayer real-time bubble (EXCEPT when leaving on a journey - as stated above - but in that case other players just see you burning and disappearing in the distance).

The multiplayer real-time bubble would be on and in-proximity-of the celestial body you're visiting or close to a space station, asteroid, comet.

The gist:

The server always controls the on-rails configuration and syncs you to it when you arrive in the multiplayer real-time bubble.

You don't get to control the position of on-rails objects by using time-warp in the multiplayer real-time bubble.

To desync, players leave on a journey. Then they can time-warp. They resync with the destination multiplayer real-time bubble when they arrive and finish the journey.

Edited April 10, 2022 by Vl3d

[DwightLee]

Any solution that allows one person to timewarp while another does not will have the same issues, as we are now in different timelines with planets and moons in different places. The core of the game is logistics and navigation to destinations based on where they will be in the future. 

[Vanamonde]

Some personal remarks removed. Please remain civil. 

[DwightLee]

let me expand on that a bit 

 

Lets take a situation ,I am on Kerbin planning to launch to Duna. You are on Duna

 

I am going to timewarp more than a year to get my craft to Duna, you do not timewarp

 

I planned my trip based on where Duna would be in the future ( a year from now ) which is in a totally different position around the sun from where you see Duna at

 

Who jumps in space and time? Duna? Me? You? Someone has to jump in both space and time for us to link up and for Duna to be in a single place around the sun. Did I just mess up your planned return because Duna is now in a different place? Or did all my planning get flushed because I arrive at Duna in a place around the sun no were near where I expected?

[Vl3d]

24 minutes ago, DwightLee said:

Someone has to jump in both space and time for us to link up and for Duna to be in a single place around the sun.

There is no centralized space and time. It's not like you leave at time K and arrive at time K+3=D.

Actually K+3 < D.

K and D are totally desynced. K is generally in the past, D is somewhere in the future.

When you arrive at Duna and sync to real-time D it's like you spin in Duna orbit while time-warping until the solar system configuration changes from K+3 to D. It's like waiting for a transfer window but reversed.

You are forced to do this because the server controls time-warp after you arrive.

You go from a virtual single player time configuration (the one in map view you saw and controlled with time warp during the journey) to a real-time multiplayer bubble configuration set by the server.

If you worry about resource usage the game can just calculate your remaining stocks ignoring the jump from K+3 to D using an internal timer specific only to you. At time K+3 you have N snacks remaining. At time D, after you sync, you still have N snacks remaining.

But what is important: there is no universal time. Time is actually irrelevant. You basically jump to each celestial body's present time when you switch colony or craft. You jump back and forth in time, from one solar system configuration to another - but it's irrelevant because causality is preserved.

What matters: the regional solar system configurations are under the exclusive control of the server. Players on / in-proximity-of a certain celestial body are always in sync.

[DwightLee]

4 minutes ago, Vl3d said:

There is no centralized space and time. It's not like you leave at time K and arrive at time K+3=D.

Actually K+3 < D.

K and D are totally desynced. K is generally in the past, D is somewhere in the future.

When you arrive at Duna and sync to real-time D it's like you spin in Duna orbit while time-warping until the solar system configuration changes from K+3 to D. It's like waiting for a transfer window but reversed.

You are forced to do this because the server controls time-warp after you arrive.

You go from a virtual single player time configuration (the one in map view you saw and controlled with time warp during the journey) to a real-time multiplayer bubble configuration set by the server.

If you worry about resource usage the game can just calculate your remaining stocks ignoring the jump from K+3 to D using an internal timer specific only to you. At time K+3 you have N snacks remaining. At time D, after you sync, you still have N snacks remaining.

But what is important: there is no universal time. Time is actually irrelevant. You basically jump to each celestial body's present time when you switch colony or craft. You jump back and forth in time, from one solar system configuration to another - but it's irrelevant because causality is preserved.

What matters: the regional solar system configurations are under the exclusive control of the server. Players on / in-proximity-of a certain celestial body are always in sync.

My question remains, for whom did Duna's position just change? We see Duna in 2 different places in orbit around the sun, we cannot do a mission together if this continues to be true, for one of us time and position is gong to suddenly jump. 

 

I do understand that this just might be a price we pay for Multi-player

Edited April 10, 2022 by DwightLee

[Vl3d]

I beg of you read what I wrote again. When you arrive at Duna you sync to the local real-time multiplayer bubble and to the solar system configuration set by the server for Duna. The map view configuration was virtual, a relic from the past.

All players sync to the server controlled configuration of the destination. All players are in sync at the destination. All regions are desynced in relation to each other.

Edited April 10, 2022 by Vl3d

[DwightLee]

I did read it, again, when you sync up, for one player or the other Duna is about to massively move around the sun to a different position.

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, DwightLee said:

My question remains, for whom did Duna's position just change? We see Duna in 2 different places in orbit around the sun, we cannot do a mission together if this continues to be true, for one of us time and position is gong to suddenly jump. 

 

I do understand that this just might be a price we pay for Multi-player

You have if you use location based syncronization, if you have player based syncronization the only jumps you would have to do are from the past to the future (timewarp) when catching up with other players or crafts.

[Vl3d]

1 minute ago, DwightLee said:

for one player or the other Duna is about to massively move around the sun to a different position

So what? It's a very small price to pay to enter big synced real-time multiplayer. You can just tell yourself you spinned in orbit while waiting for a "multiplayer-transfer-window". :))

[Bej Kerman]

1 hour ago, Vl3d said:

Not allowed to time warp:

You can't time-warp when playing inside the multiplayer real-time bubble (EXCEPT when leaving on a journey - as stated above - but in that case other players just see you burning and disappearing in the distance).

The multiplayer real-time bubble would be on and in-proximity-of the celestial body you're visiting or close to a space station, asteroid, comet.

Bad idea. Just make it like Dark Multiplayer and everyone will play. Making the time needed to do anything meaningful several hours will drive everyone off.

[Vl3d]

2 minutes ago, Master39 said:

the only jumps you would have to do are from the past to the future (timewarp) when catching up with other players or crafts

That breaks causality. And what about syncing colony placement? Assume player A warps to the future and builds a colony at position X. Player B does not warp, is in the past, and also builds a colony at position X. Then he warps to Player A's time in the future. What happens to the overlapping colonies?

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Vl3d said:

Allowed to time warp:

You can time warp after you make orbit and plan a journey with a destination with which you can sync and commit to the journey.

You time-warp when on the journey.

You can time-warp in deep space. In deep space you are allowed to come out of time-warp to change destination and maneuver nodes.

You can time warp when you're not in a multiplayer real-time bubble (non-team-members).

Not allowed to time warp:

You can't time-warp when playing inside the multiplayer real-time bubble (EXCEPT when leaving on a journey - as stated above - but in that case other players just see you burning and disappearing in the distance).

The multiplayer real-time bubble would be on and in-proximity-of the celestial body you're visiting or close to a space station, asteroid, comet.

My orbital shipyard with my Jool tour mothership is in in Kerbin's orbit, on a 45° inclined orbit with a periapsis of 250 km and an apoapsis at 5000km.

My SSTO spaceplane is small and efficient, it has enough ∆V only to do the rendezvous in the best window, but I can't timewarp to it.

This fairly random scenario would take several weeks of IRL time to play out in your system.

 

You think is an exotic scenario? That wouldn't happen?

In how many launches was built the ISS?

At which inclination it sits in orbit?

Try to build a ISS replica without timewarp, at the same inclination and number of modules.

 

1 minute ago, Vl3d said:

Player B does not warp, is in the past, and also builds a colony at position X. Then he warps to Player A's time in the future.

"You can't build here Player B us already using this place press this button if you want to warp for XX:yy:zz and sync up with him"

You seem to be confusing the real time communication between the players and the game and the continuity of time of the in-game world.

[DwightLee]

11 minutes ago, Vl3d said:

So what? It's a very small price to pay to enter big synced real-time multiplayer. You can just tell yourself you spinned in orbit while waiting for a "multiplayer-transfer-window". :))

So what? In a game where the position of a planet now and in the future is the core of navigation? I do get what you are saying, as long as you understand what I am saying. For someone, time and space is about to shift to an unexpected position. That may be the price we pay for multi-player I do get that, but it is still an issue

[t_v]

18 minutes ago, DwightLee said:

I did read it, again, when you sync up, for one player or the other Duna is about to massively move around the sun to a different position.

Under the first solution: No jumping happens, because the players are in different times

Under my solution: No jumping happens, because the locations of planets are different per player (you can warp to synchronize the locations of planets, but this isn't forced) (in this case the trajectory of the transferring craft is visible, but is distorted and becomes less distorted as you approach the orientation that the other player was using)

Under Vl3d's solution: The player who went to Duna has the positions jump significantly. Apparently you can also arbitrarily change the positions of the planets when starting a journey by choosing what time you start at, which kind of defeats the purpose of a server controlled system position. 

Edited April 10, 2022 by t_v

[DwightLee]

could play havoc with planned slingshot maneuvers ... woah all the planets just changed positions 

[t_v]

Well, technically jumping happens once you circularize/ finish a journey, so you won’t have to worry about that, but I still find it kind of pointless. Just let people choose what time they want to be in without having to do the weird journey thing, it achieves the same result without all of the hassle. 

[SkyFall2489]

3 hours ago, darthgently said:

Could you either summarize subspace warp or throw out a link to where it is described?  I need to catch up.  Searching the forums isn't working for me for finding where it was discussed.  Thanks

the github wiki for Luna Multi Player, a multiplayer mod for KSP1, sums it up nicely.

 

https://github.com/LunaMultiplayer/LunaMultiplayer/wiki/Timewarp

[DwightLee]

I would be willing to pay that price I suppose for the multiplayer experience, but it would not be my primary game, that will likely always be my solo game. The example I gave was just for that scale, the same thing goes for extremely large and very small scale, the position of a station in orbit, the location of 2 folks small craft when they sync, someone is going to jump, perhaps even very far away.

[DwightLee]

21 minutes ago, SkyFall2489 said:

the github wiki for Luna Multi Player, a multiplayer mod for KSP1, sums it up nicely.

 

https://github.com/LunaMultiplayer/LunaMultiplayer/wiki/Timewarp

Yes, seen that before, it is a compromise.