KSP 2 Multiplayer Discussion Thread

[Wincil]

Btw wouldn't ksp2 have modding support? Mods or addons aren't exactly malware. 

Why would multiplayer have drm anyway? I don't think ksp2 should be an mmo kind of game. 

Edited April 9, 2022 by Wincil

[Vl3d]

4 hours ago, Lisias said:

Because multiplayer will have DRM activated and no add'ons will be allowed...

Exactly, this was interpreted by ommission in an older interview about single player not having DRM and a MMO is the logical conclusion.

Only single player will not have DRM, but multiplayer will. So we don't cheat. So we don't use pseudo warp drives like on/around celestial body time-warp.

You can also probably make small private servers with mods if you like, why not. But the main public servers will have DRM, so the game state will be locked and common for all players.

Why do you think Nate said that inter-agency contracts is an amazing idea?! Because: multiple (1-4 player teams) agencies in the same universe!

Why do you think KSP2 multiplayer is such a big secret and one of the most strictly classified topics in the gaming industry? Why do you think the rocket will touch down on the moon in the next feature video which will be about multiplayer?

Because the greatest reveal is that KSP2 will be a huge multiplayer game!

It's not just a feature, it's DNA. That's what KSP was meant to be all along, but they couldn't finish it. Look at the signs!

Edited April 9, 2022 by Vl3d

[Wincil]

I don't think ksp2 should take the mmo route I think allowing several different multiplayer "modes", as well as allowing mods to add more lets every player play KSP2 their way don't have to go with one way or another. 

Edited April 9, 2022 by Wincil

[Vl3d]

The signs:

- planting flags so others that come later find them (this is not a single player or co-op team-only feature)

- leaving custom messages on plaques that can only be read by getting physically close to them (not single player or co-op team-only feature)

- having agency contracts, rescue missions, (submodules) testing missions, tourism

- the huge empty world where we all could build colonies and space stations

- no cities or signs of Kerbal civilization on Kerbin

- being able to build cool rockets that we can admire, trade or share

- directly controlling kerbals (that will be able to emote)

It's all been there in KSP1, it was supposed to be a huge multiplayer game. But game design, tech levels and funding didn't allow the dream to be realized. Until now!

Edited April 9, 2022 by Vl3d

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Lisias said:

Because multiplayer will have DRM activated and no add'ons will be allowed...

Minecraft has is own account system / DRM for multiplayer and modded multiplayer is a thing, and without having to disable it or anything.

 

27 minutes ago, Vl3d said:

Exactly, this was interpreted by ommission in an older interview about single player not having DRM and a MMO is the logical conclusion.

Only single player will not have DRM, but multiplayer will. So we don't cheat. So we don't use pseudo warp drives like on/around celestial body time-warp.

You can also probably make small private servers with mods if you like, why not. But the main public servers will have DRM, so the game state will be locked and common for all players.

Why do you think Nate said that inter-agency contracts is an amazing idea?! Because: multiple (1-4 player teams) agencies in the same universe!

Why do you think KSP2 multiplayer is such a big secret and one of the most strictly classified topics in the gaming industry? Why do you think the rocket will touch down on the moon in the next feature video which will be about multiplayer?

Look at the signs: Intercept is not even close to be the kind of studio that can work on a huge MMO game, unless for MMO you don't mean 20 people private servers.

You're setting yourself up for disappointment.

Lots of Coop and small private server games have DRM that check your account before allowing you to play multiplayer, the news there was single player not having it, allowing you to play without an internet connection, which is good.

 

35 minutes ago, Vl3d said:

Because the greatest reveal is that KSP2 will be a huge multiplayer game!

It's not just a feature, it's DNA. That's what KSP was meant to be all along, but they couldn't finish it. Look at the signs!

There are a lot, and I mean a lot, of multiplayer games that I love, but usually the "Traditionally single player game comes out with a live service MMO sequel" story isn't one of success, and I said it as someone who enjoyed both ESO and F76.

[Lisias]

1 hour ago, Master39 said:

Minecraft has is own account system / DRM for multiplayer and modded multiplayer is a thing, and without having to disable it or anything.

KSP is not Minecraft.

On KSP we build crafts that so need to interact with each other: we pilot them, we stage them, we crash them, we dock on them, we take fuel from one to another.

Allowing Add'Ons will make things pretty hard to cope on a Multi Player game.

How to synchronise the state of a player that hacked its engines to consume less fuel or give more thrust with the others on vanilla? Who is calculating physics, the remote machines (player's) or the central server? If everybody is calculating its own physics, everybody needs to have strictly the same rules - so, no Add'Ons for anybody, or everybody using exactly the same add'ons. If a "central authority" will be in charge of calculating the physics for everybody, it's the same: everybody must use the same add'ons installed on the server, or not have them at all. If you are going to sync add'ons from the server (QuakeWorld style), you need to be absolutely sure you are not distributing copyright infringement material neither malware.

Who is the owner of the Universal Time of the game?

How to prevent a player to "steal" resources from another (you know, people are going to harvest resources on the game)? How to prevent a troll to dock into your station without permission and knock it off from the orbit?

What happens if two ships from different "Agencies" grab an Asteroid and try to move it, each one to a different destination? "Richer" players will be allowed to "bully" the smaller ones with bigger boosters?

How the harvesterable resources are replenished on the game? Given enough players, the Mün will eventually be depleted? How to cope with different "Agencies" willing to harvest the same spot? 

How to prevent the Low Kerbin Orbit from becoming a Kessler Syndrome Work Shop?

Minecraft doesn't have to cope with none of these problems.

Edited April 9, 2022 by Lisias
some entertaining grammars made less entertaining.

[Wincil]

We know that ksp isn't minecraft btw How can Allowing Addons will make things pretty hard to cope on a multiplayer game? get that quakeworld excrements out of here your not making any sense ksp isn't quakeworld what if there is only one space agency in the game what if ksp2 had robust modding support I think every player should be allowed to play KSP2 their way and don't have to go with one way or another btw ksp2 won't be played like quakeworld ksp2 would have more then 1 game mode btw if richer players will be allowed to bully the small ones with bigger boosters or spoil the game for you then that would be griefer you would still have griefers in multiplayer servers modded or not I don't think it would be fair to force every player play not to KSP2 their way so they have to go with one way or another.

 

 

Edited April 9, 2022 by Wincil

[Vl3d]

@Lisias you are someone who finally sees the dream! I recommend skimming over some of my posts, you might find them interesting.

Also, imagine how hilarious it would be to drive your buggy around and see in the distance how beginner players are testing vehicles while trying to reach orbit and failing in spectacular fashion, rockets blowing up and some big parts falling in the blaze of glory. (Just visuals, no physical interactions with other players.) What a sight to behold!

Edited April 9, 2022 by Vl3d

[Wincil]

I don't see the dream for the game like this tbh no physical player interactions? Not if your playing multi player instead of single player Intercept is not even close to be the kind of studio that can work on a huge MMO game btw they only studio so asking for mmo but bit much some people would be against it ngl. every player should be allowed to play ksp2 their way so they don't have to go with one way or another I wouldn't agree with the MMO route I think more robust modding support would be better for ksp2 tbh.

 

Edited April 9, 2022 by Wincil

[Vl3d]

Physical interactions only between craft of the same agency/team. All other players craft would be just fly-through visual projections, for gameplay and performance reasons.

We could have interaction with other players craft (other agencies) docking ports only after requesting permissions to dock.

1 hour ago, Lisias said:

How the harvesterable resources are replenished on the game?

Celestial body resources would be infinite like in KSP1. There's enough room for everyone.

1 hour ago, Lisias said:

What happens if two ships from different "Agencies" grab an Asteroid and try to move it, each one to a different destination?

Free for all, create asteroids that fragment when under stress. I wrote short story about this.

 

1 hour ago, Lisias said:

How to prevent the Low Kerbin Orbit from becoming a Kessler Syndrome Work Shop?

No outside-team physical interactions as stated above + lucrative cleanup contracts.

[Vl3d]

Also imagine having inter-agency bidding contracts to trade in-game resources for subassemblies designed by other agency players with some specific size and functionality requirements.

Like the contracts in KSP1 basically, but actually useful in multiplayer.

Edited April 9, 2022 by Vl3d

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Lisias said:

KSP is not Minecraft.

Load an Enigmatica 2 Expert game and you will realize that no, KSP is not Minecraft, is several order of magnitude simpler (not as a game, I'm talking about things moving around, inventories to keep track of and general complexity of the systems involved).

1 hour ago, Lisias said:

Allowing Add'Ons will make things pretty hard to cope on a Multi Player game.

A thing solved by literally hundreds of games already, no point in discussing it here further.

1 hour ago, Lisias said:

or everybody using exactly the same add'ons.

A thing that works just fine with literally hundreds of games, and it's quite the prerequisite when talking about modded multiplayer.

1 hour ago, Lisias said:

Who is the owner of the Universal Time of the game?

There's 28 pages of discussion on that already, pick your favorite one or just spend the next 5 pages arguing about your personal special recipe.

1 hour ago, Lisias said:

How to prevent a player to "steal" resources from another (you know, people are going to harvest resources on the game)? How to prevent a troll to dock into your station without permission and knock it off from the orbit?

How to prevent a player to "steal" resources from another (you know, people are going to harvest resources on the game)? How to prevent a troll to dock into your station without permission and knock it off from the orbit?

What happens if two ships from different "Agencies" grab an Asteroid and try to move it, each one to a different destination? "Richer" players will be allowed to "bully" the smaller ones with bigger boosters?

How the harvesterable resources are replenished on the game? Given enough players, the Mün will eventually be depleted? How to cope with different "Agencies" willing to harvest the same spot? 

How to prevent the Low Kerbin Orbit from becoming a Kessler Syndrome Work Shop?

A thing solved by literally hundreds of games already, no point in discussing it here further. I'd say good old banhammer, permissions, backups and playing with friends will suffice. Other problems will only arise if you try to turn KSP into an MMO, a thing I would not play anyway and that would bring a whole new ton of technical problems.

 

1 hour ago, Lisias said:

Minecraft doesn't have to cope with none of these problems.

I guess you never played any of the Minecraft FTB tech packs then, I've not only have played those, but I managed some servers, big and small.

Resource depletion is quite the problem when you have "only" 8 square kms of map and 2-3 hundred players mining in it, and that's in Vanilla Minecraft, for modded Minecraft the problems with quarried worlds were so big that mods started shifting towards a "your resources from the miner comes from under the bedrock / another dimension" model, to avoid to have entire maps completely excavated to the bedrock by as few as 15-20 players.

 

As I said, KSP isn't Minecraft, nor Factorio, nor any similar game, in many things is going to  be way simpler than that:

• Way more space to spread things around, pun intended.
• No PVP or combat
• Way less resources and inventories to deal with
• Even in the most competitive scenario way less incentive to cheat given the no PVP or combat

[Wincil]

All other players craft wouldn't be just fly-through visual projections btw I don't think that has anything to do with gameplay and performance reasons what would be the point of multiplayer if you can't interact with other players? I doubt it would be for gameplay and performance reasons that would be unlikely to be true tbh nothing would be known about the game's min system requirements btw that's because its not out yet player interactions I don't think player interactions would effect gameplay or performance as much.

 

 

Edited April 9, 2022 by Wincil

[SkyFall2489]

8 hours ago, Lisias said:

9 hours ago, SkyFall2489 said:

What do you mean by DRM?

"Digital Rights Management". From where are you? Dres?

Apparently.

[Bej Kerman]

3 hours ago, Vl3d said:

Physical interactions only between craft of the same agency/team. All other players craft would be just fly-through visual projections, for gameplay and performance reasons.

We could have interaction with other players craft (other agencies) docking ports only after requesting permissions to dock.

Then we can use timewarp anyway, right?

3 hours ago, Vl3d said:

5 hours ago, Lisias said:

What happens if two ships from different "Agencies" grab an Asteroid and try to move it, each one to a different destination?

Free for all, create asteroids that fragment when under stress. I wrote short story about this.

Assuming all asteroids would fragment. 1. Some asteroids may be tough and 2. Not all engines will be powerful enough to do this. Assuming the asteroid doesn't break, which is much more likely, what then?

3 hours ago, Vl3d said:

5 hours ago, Lisias said:

How to prevent the Low Kerbin Orbit from becoming a Kessler Syndrome Work Shop?

No outside-team physical interactions as stated above + lucrative cleanup contracts.

Again, wouldn't that make disabling timewarp unnecessary? 

[Lisias]

19 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

Again, wouldn't that make disabling timewarp unnecessary? 

For the Multi Player mode we are speculating, yes.

But for that @Vl3d was discussing envisioning, and that somehow we missed the point, no!

See, we were talking about a "minimal" MP mode where interactions between players will never be that sofisticated. On this Scenario, yes, you are right and there's no point on preserving causality - so let's Time Warp the thing!

But if by chance the KSP2 MP in the future aims to be something about what @Vl3d speculated, causality can't be broke otherwise they will never be able to implement the MP model he was talking about.

And there's a thing that we ended up forgetting : single player will not be DRM'd, so there's absolutely nothing preventing a homebrew MP mode (probably a port of Luna or Dark Player) for KSP2, where things can go the way you want without screwing up this (hypothetical) road map for the DRM'd MP mode.

[Wincil]

Eh idk about the thing homebrew  wouldn't mp already be built into ksp2? It might not the I don't think it would be the mp that VI3d speculated it wouldn't be an speculator mode.

 

Edited April 9, 2022 by Wincil

[Bej Kerman]

12 minutes ago, Wincil said:

A port of Luna or Dark Player?

That's not at all what we're talking about. Official multiplayer in KSP 2 has been confirmed for most of its history.

[Wincil]

6 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

That's not at all what we're talking about. Official multiplayer in KSP 2 has been confirmed for most of its history.

Oh

[t_v]

57 minutes ago, Lisias said:

But if by chance the KSP2 MP in the future aims to be something about what @Vl3d speculated, causality can't be broke otherwise they will never be able to implement the MP model he was talking about.

Ok, two things that I would like explained, because I still don’t understand why no time warp is necessary:

1. With the Journey system, players effectively break causality. Let’s say the first player goes to Duna at transfer window 1. This takes 5 months which they can warp through, and so the Duna synchronous time bubble is 5 months ahead of Kerbin. If, one real-life day later, someone uses a torch ship to reach Duna, with a travel time of about a week, they have arrived way earlier. Now, according to the system, player 2 will just spin in orbit for 5 months, preserving causality. But this really doesn’t make any difference from allowing people to leave at different times, because player 1 still arrives at Duna a day ahead of player 2 in real life. 
 

This would be fine, if the downside wasn’t having to wait in real time for transfer windows. If you can just warp to a transfer window, then this is just allowing time warp in general. So how does this system manage to preserve causality?

 

2. Why is it even important to preserve causality? We have seen that none of these systems actually do so, and have to choose between restricting player options (this system), allowing future knowledge (also this system), or having big bugs, especially when interacting with different craft (luckily, not this system). So, how does preserving  causality really help the game? In my opinion, as long as the system does not impede or provide alternatives to people using orbital mechanics (no warping forwards in an orbit to avoid rendezvousing!) it is fine. 

[Vl3d]

1 hour ago, t_v said:

If you can just warp to a transfer window, then this is just allowing time warp in general. So how does this system manage to preserve causality?

I misquoted, in the following answer i am referring to your statement: "having to wait in real time for transfer windows".

That's absurd, I never said that. When you begin the journey you start time-warping to the transfer window, at which point you exit the local multiplayer real-time bubble.

After starting the journey either: (c) you cannot cancel the journey until the next maneuver node and you can't just turn back OR (d) you cancel and/or turn back and sync again to the current planetary real-time bubble.

As I have said a hundred times before: you play real-time on / around the celestial body. When planning and starting a journey you exit multiplayer real-time and you can control time-warp. When you arrive at the destination you sync to the local celestial-body multiplayer real-time bubble.

1 hour ago, t_v said:

Why is it even important to preserve causality?

Maybe ask Einstein or Newton. You're just asking for pseudo warp-drives and time travel on / in-proximity-of the celestial body in multiplayer. You can only warp when on-rails.

Luna and Dark are KSP1 workarounds because the first game was not architected with multiplayer in mind like KSP2 is.

Edited April 9, 2022 by Vl3d

[Lettuce]

This is the worst way they could implement multiplayer IMO, if it were to be done this way (Thankfully it won't be because KSP 2 can't support an MMO framework just looking at it logistically) I would probably never use multiplayer  because I (along with many others I presume) don't have the hours to waste waiting for the right spot in a Kerbin orbit to start my journey. The biggest flaw in your vision of multiplayer is that it sacrifices KSP's main identity not as an MMO game but as an exploration sandbox with resource management. You're better off looking for the kind of experience you're describing in a game like Elite Dangerous not KSP.

[Bej Kerman]

1 hour ago, Vl3d said:

1 hour ago, t_v said:

Why is it even important to preserve causality?

Maybe ask Einstein or Newton.

1 hour ago, Vl3d said:

You're just asking for pseudo warp-drives and time travel on / in-proximity-of the celestial body in multiplayer. You can only warp when on-rails.

The other option is waiting hours, days or even weeks for otherwise trivial tasks. Bottom line, timewarp is needed.

20 minutes ago, Lettuce said:

This is the worst way they could implement multiplayer IMO, if it were to be done this way (Thankfully it won't be because KSP 2 can't support an MMO framework just looking at it logistically) I would probably never use multiplayer  because I (along with many others I presume) don't have the hours to waste waiting for the right spot in a Kerbin orbit to start my journey. The biggest flaw in your vision of multiplayer is that it sacrifices KSP's main identity not as an MMO game but as an exploration sandbox with resource management. You're better off looking for the kind of experience you're describing in a game like Elite Dangerous not KSP.

1000% agree with you there.

[Vl3d]

1 hour ago, Lettuce said:

don't have the hours to waste waiting for the right spot in a Kerbin orbit to start my journey

You can start your journey from any point in orbit, because you would automatically warp to the transfer window maneuver node, automatically burn and then warp to the next maneuver node. Then you sync back into the local real-time multiplayer bubble when you arrive at your destination. Where do you waste time?

[Bej Kerman]

1 minute ago, Vl3d said:

You can start your journey from any point in orbit, because you would automatically warp to the transfer window maneuver node, automatically burn and then warp to the next maneuver node. Then you sync back into the local real-time multiplayer bubble when you arrive at your destination. Where do you waste time?

Wasn't the discussion about not being able to timewarp in orbit?