Blocker features in KSP2 -- what would stop you from playing it?

[Lewie]

On 5/19/2020 at 6:02 PM, betaking said:

If KSP2 has a lot of DLC-locked features I'd be even more inclined to wait on it

The devs have confirmed that there won't be microtransatcions in the game. Thank goodness too, that'd be horrible.

[AntaresMC]

On 5/17/2020 at 9:23 PM, SciMan said:

Not sure if I posted in this thread before or not, but there are two big things that would absolutely kill KSP2 Stone Dead for me.

1. "Milk run simulator, IN SPACE!" You have to run every single re-supply mission manually. I should be able to run a resupply mission once, and then the computer should be able to repeat it as many times as it needs to to get the supplies from point A to point B. This would make me out-and-out not buy the game, or only ever play it with mods that remove that limitation.

2. "Sure, you CAN go anywhere, but you don't HAVE to". This is a problem with KSP1, you can unlock all the parts without leaving Kerbin's SOI (so Kerbin, Mun, Minmus is enough). I have all these neat places to go, but no REASON to go there. There's nothing pushing me to explore further than that, so I never really do. Also, the engines that really allow you to do big things out at the other planets (LV-N, Vector, ion engine) are so far deep in the tech tree that by the time I have them and can actually start putting together a proper interplanetary mission to explore a whole planetary system in one mission it's just one or two more mun/minmus missions until I can unlock the rest of the tech tree, and once that's complete I lose all motivation to play the game any further.
And that's without even setting up science labs, those just make the problem even worse.
EDIT: As far as what this means for KSP2, I want to be forced to send some form of interstellar mission (even if it's just a fly-by of a distant star) BEFORE I have enough "stuff" to unlock every last part in the game, however they end up handling that.

 

BONUS THING:

I want to have a reason to build research outposts with a science lab in distant locations.

A simple life support system like the one I suggested in a thead about KSP2 complexity, in where you have "snacks" and parts that recover them, needing a few parts, a lvl5 scientist and engineer, a bit of extra seats and a cupoula to be fully self sufficient.

This makes not-as-easy the lab thing as, for normal missions, even long range SSTOs its only a few tons les payload cap, but for labs and outposts, that you need kerbals working in non LS, it gets exponentially harder. A resource sharing function with pilots helps it as you can make a small infrastructure to supply your ship, but not just send a rocket with a lab, 2 kerbals a probe core, antenna/solar panes, etc to Mun and let it there. 

As labs are much more difficult, if you nerf them a bit (making them 10× slower and 1/2 as efficient) you can make a Duna landing as hard and rewarding as a mun orbit lab, making it a good choice gameplay wise, so the go to other worlds is more rewarding but labs give a small flat income while that ultra long Jool mission is going, encouraging synergias as you can work by passive while earn your most by active.

Even, a Jool lab may be too costly and long term that is better to do a moho+Jool+Dres (that doesnt exist) landings while a Mun and Gilly surface lab are giving a bit extra.

[SciMan]

Perhaps I wasn't clear when I explained it earlier. With the current situation in KSP1 and setting all sliders to 100% on a Science mode save, you can fully unlock the tech tree without ever doing a mission beyond Kerbin orbit. It got even worse with the surface experiment packages you can get with the DLC.
You do have to pretty much fully explore Kerbin, the Mun, and Minmus, but that's it.Nothing else.
You don't need to use a science lab in KSP1 to end up in this result either.
You can do it simply by bringing back experiment data from the experiments the game gives you. Heck you technically don't even need an antenna to do that.

Additionally, the way the tech tree is in stock KSP1 means that I can't get the parts I want (large fuel tanks and engines, LV-N Nerv, large unmanned probe cores, ion engines, etc.) to do missions further out until I've basically fully unlocked the tech tree anyways.
Which again means I'm going to sit in Kerbin's SOI to get what I want, but by the time I get what I want, to go where I want, all I need to do to finish the tech tree is either send up a lab or send a few more missions to the Mun or Minmus.

I mean I can't even justify setting up a fuel refinery on Minmus. You just don't need it.

I can't just turn down the science return slider either, because then I can't get those parts I need to explore further out. Maybe I could pull off a one-way Duna lander with a tiny one-man pod and no opportunity to return. I don't want to do that tho. I want to build a full-fledged sample return mission that is capable of exploring every biome on Duna and Ike in one mission. Or explore every biome of every Jool moon, in one mission, and return.

 

As it is I usually start sending out communications relay satellites with ion drives to the various places in the solar system, and then get bored. By the time I come back to KSP, the game has updated a few times and I don't remember what I was doing so I just start a whole new install.

[Tonka Crash]

I'll probably buy the game at launch, but won't play much until mods patch holes.  To me the functionality provided by KIS/KAS & KER are essential.  Without them, I don't really care how what else they've added to the game. For me KSP didn't become addictive until EVA became useful with KIS and KAS.  I'll also want some way to customize the info displayed to me in game. Without these features I'll stay with the original.

[AntaresMC]

3 hours ago, SciMan said:

Perhaps I wasn't clear when I explained it earlier. With the current situation in KSP1 and setting all sliders to 100% on a Science mode save, you can fully unlock the tech tree without ever doing a mission beyond Kerbin orbit. It got even worse with the surface experiment packages you can get with the DLC.
You do have to pretty much fully explore Kerbin, the Mun, and Minmus, but that's it.Nothing else.
You don't need to use a science lab in KSP1 to end up in this result either.
You can do it simply by bringing back experiment data from the experiments the game gives you. Heck you technically don't even need an antenna to do that.

Additionally, the way the tech tree is in stock KSP1 means that I can't get the parts I want (large fuel tanks and engines, LV-N Nerv, large unmanned probe cores, ion engines, etc.) to do missions further out until I've basically fully unlocked the tech tree anyways.
Which again means I'm going to sit in Kerbin's SOI to get what I want, but by the time I get what I want, to go where I want, all I need to do to finish the tech tree is either send up a lab or send a few more missions to the Mun or Minmus.

I mean I can't even justify setting up a fuel refinery on Minmus. You just don't need it.

I can't just turn down the science return slider either, because then I can't get those parts I need to explore further out. Maybe I could pull off a one-way Duna lander with a tiny one-man pod and no opportunity to return. I don't want to do that tho. I want to build a full-fledged sample return mission that is capable of exploring every biome on Duna and Ike in one mission. Or explore every biome of every Jool moon, in one mission, and return.

 

As it is I usually start sending out communications relay satellites with ion drives to the various places in the solar system, and then get bored. By the time I come back to KSP, the game has updated a few times and I don't remember what I was doing so I just start a whole new install.

But do you know how boring is that kinda grinding?

Simple solution is to make stlide down science rewards and prohibit yourself from taking KSC science. You can perfectly unlock perts to go to Ike, Gilly an plantes' flybyes. Planes do well for initial science and dont need ions nor nukes, good design or orbital assembly work just fine. Even only a rover with an arm gives huge returns, and thats almost as easy as a moon and back landing (assuming done well dV wise is moreless same).

Another solution, this time by Squad is to savagely nerf labs, ground science, reduce general rewards and make a system in where the science earned drops exponentially the closer to kerbin (give 5 science as kickstart for the 1st free tech, so start isnt as boring). Also expand the tech tree, increase overall money costs more in the mid-late game so you may be forced to sell science, an entire branch of the tech tree for reusability or something like that and you are now forced to explore at least an extra system. Also remove science earnings from contracts.

[Little Kerbonaut!]

Hmm let me think about it, I would stop playing if they took away the Original Four.

[Gargamel]

47 minutes ago, Little Kerbonaut! said:

Hmm let me think about it, I would stop playing if they took away the Original Four.

What I find interesting about that comment, showing how long i've been playing, My first thought was "There were only 3 originals, Val came later". 

[Little Kerbonaut!]

How does Val have a Orange flight suit then isn't that weird?

[Gargamel]

43 minutes ago, Little Kerbonaut! said:

How does Val have a Orange flight suit then isn't that weird?

They gave her one when she was added to the game. It was just Jeb, Bill, and Bob for quite a while.   All the 4 starting kerbals get orange suits. 

[Little Kerbonaut!]

Oh, so she is not one of the Original Four or should I say Original Three.

[silly crusader]

I‘m with you bro.What really appeals to me about this game is its unparalleled freedom of play.I love ksp1 cause i can build everything not only spaceship(or traditional spaceship) and try everyway to play not only the space trip.I can put a Cadillac in orbit or drive a zeppelin airship above KSC in ksp1.I hope ksp2 will also have such a creativity to play,which is the real essence of the game.

the main blocker features of mine is mostly similar with you.and there is a recently report in PCgamer said that the size of the vehicle in ksp2 will have a limit,i don’t know if it is true or not.but if it is real,‘m afraid that I won’t play it anymore:(

[AlamoVampire]

for me there are only 2 things that would stop me cold from buying KSP2.

1. Forced life support. I don't mean like the colonist making children, that's cool, its the kind of realism you see in some of the mods, where kerbals will die if you don't have life support stuff like oxygen generators and food. Forcing me to micromanage that kinda thing would be a hard pass for me. If its a feature that can be toggled then its a non issue. 

2. Forced Multiplayer. I have said it so many times, but, multiplayer is a thing I myself never wanted, never asked for and still refuse to use for a variety of reasons. But the shortest explanation I can use is: I cannot see how they can reconcile timewarp, part counts and mods as a very short list of things. 

those 2 things are a hard pass for me. Thankfully item 2 on this list looks to be an optional thing if what ive heard is correct. As to item 1, I need more information, which I trust will come at some point. 

024906012020

[Superfluous J]

On 5/29/2020 at 4:11 PM, SciMan said:

Perhaps I wasn't clear when I explained it earlier.

I think you're right, but I still don't quite understand.

On 5/29/2020 at 4:11 PM, SciMan said:

With the current situation in KSP1 and setting all sliders to 100% on a Science mode save, you can fully unlock the tech tree without ever doing a mission beyond Kerbin orbit.

True. This annoys me as well but I've learned to get over it

On 5/29/2020 at 4:11 PM, SciMan said:

Additionally, the way the tech tree is in stock KSP1 means that I can't get the parts I want (large fuel tanks and engines, LV-N Nerv, large unmanned probe cores, ion engines, etc.) to do missions further out until I've basically fully unlocked the tech tree anyways.

This is the part I don't get. You're saying you can unlock the tech tree in the Kerbin SOI, and you need an unlocked tech tree to leave the Kerbin SOI. Seems like that's a functional system.

Also, you do not need to unlock very much of the tech tree to do full there-and-back, land-and-plant-a-flag-even missions with large swaths of the tech tree unlocked. Check the winners of my Kerpollo Program challenge for examples of how to do this.

But that's exactly why you can unlock the tech tree in Kerbin's SOI, but it's a pain to do so. If you really need (or think you need) a part, there is ALWAYS a way to get it. However, if you don't have a part when you want to go to Duna, you have the ability to find a way around needing it.

[dr.phees]

Still: The only thing that would prevent me from buying it is if there is no Linux version.

[Superfluous J]

8 hours ago, dr.phees said:

Still: The only thing that would prevent me from buying it is if there is no Linux version.

Similarly say I'd not buy it if it didn't come out on Windows. No sense buying a game I can't play.

[AntaresMC]

13 hours ago, AlamoVampire said:

for me there are only 2 things that would stop me cold from buying KSP2.

1. Forced life support. I don't mean like the colonist making children, that's cool, its the kind of realism you see in some of the mods, where kerbals will die if you don't have life support stuff like oxygen generators and food. Forcing me to micromanage that kinda thing would be a hard pass for me. If its a feature that can be toggled then its a non issue. 

2. Forced Multiplayer. I have said it so many times, but, multiplayer is a thing I myself never wanted, never asked for and still refuse to use for a variety of reasons. But the shortest explanation I can use is: I cannot see how they can reconcile timewarp, part counts and mods as a very short list of things. 

those 2 things are a hard pass for me. Thankfully item 2 on this list looks to be an optional thing if what ive heard is correct. As to item 1, I need more information, which I trust will come at some point. 

024906012020

Unforced things are always welcome in super-sandboxes like KSP, force a thing aint good...

Forced MP makes no sense, actually is counter productive for devs (free extra work) and players (less liberty)

Some kind of optional life support, that dont have permanent consequeces (as snacks or USI, just deactivate kerbals) or efficiency penalizations for not bringing enough space/electricity may be a clever nerf to labs and even "force" you to have a payload cap for training SSTOs (its often silly the so OP they are). A non invasive one like this: you have snacks, if your kerbals dont eat'em, dont work, also need EC. With engineer and recyclers reduce its usage, with scientist and agros you recycle the poop (just a few parts to selfsufficiency). The more space they have the better they work, cupoulas help. Some details and the numbers I posted in a long post about KSP2 simplicity, its meant to not punish for having more kerbals but more "useless" ones, that dont produce LS so its more difficult to have an extra 2sci 1pil for a lab, but not a manned long range SSTO with only 2 crews and a bot... AND OPTIONAL!!

[AlamoVampire]

@AntaresMC i like ur idea of “life” support. I could see that. As to forced multiplayer, it can be and has been a thing. Diablo 3 from what i remember forced an always logged into blizzard thing. Its why i deleted it after my first play through. With info on mp being sparse im going to try to not speculate too much.

 

183006012020

[AntaresMC]

12 hours ago, AlamoVampire said:

@AntaresMC i like ur idea of “life” support. I could see that. As to forced multiplayer, it can be and has been a thing. Diablo 3 from what i remember forced an always logged into blizzard thing. Its why i deleted it after my first play through. With info on mp being sparse im going to try to not speculate too much.

 

183006012020

I say its a useless pain in the ass for devs in a KSP like setting. Also there are loads of easy tricks to be solo on a MP server, yea, would suck, but dont worry...

12 hours ago, AlamoVampire said:

183006012020

WTH are this numbers!?

[έķ νίĻĻάίή]

Since I'm pretty sure that all our fave youtubers will be onto the game pretty fast, I'll wait for the reviews then take my step.

[AlamoVampire]

1 hour ago, AntaresMC said:

I say its a useless pain in the ass for devs in a KSP like setting. Also there are loads of easy tricks to be solo on a MP server, yea, would suck, but dont worry...

WTH are this numbers!?

Im going to wait and see what happens. Like I said, if i am made to use mp then its a hard pass. Id rather just be able to pretend mp in ksp2 is nonexistent and stay offline. 
 

and as a slight deviation off topic those numbers are a manual time and date record keeping system. I can look back at any post i make with my timestamp and know precisely when i hit submit or edited a post. Its more accurate for me than the forums time stamp. After 24 hours it just says what day and thats it. I know its geeky but its muh thing lol.

and back on topic: id rather not need tricks to play solo. Worried? Not really, just more cautious honestly.

 

074906022020

[supay]

On 6/1/2020 at 2:07 PM, dr.phees said:

Still: The only thing that would prevent me from buying it is if there is no Linux version.

For me too. I'd need a Linux version and hope they don't ditch us.

[Pthigrivi]

2 hours ago, AlamoVampire said:

and as a slight deviation off topic those numbers are a manual time and date record keeping system. I can look back at any post i make with my timestamp and know precisely when i hit submit or edited a post. Its more accurate for me than the forums time stamp. After 24 hours it just says what day and thats it. I know its geeky but its muh thing lol.

What AlamoVampire leaves out is that they are actually just a sophisticated bot designed to play and provide KSP feedback. The timestamps are critical to its iterative learning software.

 

On 6/1/2020 at 3:47 AM, AlamoVampire said:

1. Forced life support. I don't mean like the colonist making children, that's cool, its the kind of realism you see in some of the mods, where kerbals will die if you don't have life support stuff like oxygen generators and food. Forcing me to micromanage that kinda thing would be a hard pass for me. If its a feature that can be toggled then its a non issue. 

I think the big problem is no one has really nailed life support in mod form so its tough to imagine what a great one would look like. I think the best one out there is USI-LS which is just slightly more complicated than it needs to be but close I think. Kerbals turn "supplies" into "waste" which can be converted back using greenhouses and fertilizer, which can be mined. You can also use recyclers to extend the efficiency of supplies, and even after they run out there's a 14 day grace period before they get grumpy. That also means you don't really have to worry about supplies at all until you go to minmus. After the 14 days they just go on strike and wont EVA or do anything until you send supplies. 

Roverdude is a smart guy and this is pretty darn good, but probably too much for KSP 2 if players are worrying about dozens or hundreds of colonists for long periods. The devs have also said they want to keep things deliberately non-punitive. The PC Gamer article says "Colonies won’t require tons of micromanagement. If you leave one in a dangerous state, without enough power or food, it’ll simply underperform." This seems to imply that there will be some kind of LS resource but that there will be no penalty for underestimating, just a positive result from maintaining it. I think probably the only way to make this work is to make closed-loop LS relatively easy, like having a few greenhouses makes a colony or station self sufficient. Without knowing more about the other game mechanics its hard to say what the benefits to good management might be, but it could contribute to a happiness rating that effected things like science output, mining efficiency, and how much growth is produced during "booms". If it were that forgiving I'd personally like to see the method of maintaining and generating LS at least a little complicated so players could exploit synergies and work a bit if they want to make it really efficient. For instance greenhouses could maintain what LS you have, recyclers could extend how useful your LS is, and ISRU converters could produce more. With a little tinkering you could either maximize your output or just kind of muddle along. 

Edited June 2, 2020 by Pthigrivi

[DStaal]

On the thoughts about forced MP:

They said in one of the original interviews that one of their goals was to be able to play the game completely offline.  (They have a couple of fans they interact with who work on cargo ships - with very limited Internet access.  They want to make sure those fans can still play.)  Now, it's possible they'll be overridden by someone higher up at the publisher, but at the very least that sounds like MP is an addon to the gameplay, not a core feature.

[AlamoVampire]

@Pthigrivi lol you made me laugh at your first portion of your reply. The im a bot thing. Needed that! 
 

i started thinking about it, and i swear i heard something about supply lines being automated and it made me wonder if what ever we will use for LS will become automated?

———————

2 hours ago, DStaal said:

On the thoughts about forced MP:

They said in one of the original interviews that one of their goals was to be able to play the game completely offline.  (They have a couple of fans they interact with who work on cargo ships - with very limited Internet access.  They want to make sure those fans can still play.)  Now, it's possible they'll be overridden by someone higher up at the publisher, but at the very least that sounds like MP is an addon to the gameplay, not a core feature.

lets hope design choices are respected by higher ups.

 

171606022020

[AntaresMC]

10 hours ago, AlamoVampire said:

and as a slight deviation off topic those numbers are a manual time and date record keeping system. I can look back at any post i make with my timestamp and know precisely when i hit submit or edited a post. Its more accurate for me than the forums time stamp. After 24 hours it just says what day and thats it. I know its geeky but its muh thing lol.

Interesting!

7 hours ago, Pthigrivi said:

I think the big problem is no one has really nailed life support in mod form so its tough to imagine what a great one would look like. I think the best one out there is USI-LS which is just slightly more complicated than it needs to be but close I think. Kerbals turn "supplies" into "waste" which can be converted back using greenhouses and fertilizer, which can be mined. You can also use recyclers to extend the efficiency of supplies, and even after they run out there's a 14 day grace period before they get grumpy. That also means you don't really have to worry about supplies at all until you go to minmus. After the 14 days they just go on strike and wont EVA or do anything until you send supplies. 

tive result from maintaining it. I think probably the only way to make this work is to make closed-loop LS relatively easy, like having a few greenhouses makes a colony or station self sufficient. Without knowing more about the other game mechanics its hard to say what the benefits to good management might be, but it could contribute to a happiness rating that effected things like science output, mining efficiency, and how much growth is produced during "booms". If it were that forgiving I'd personally like to see the method of maintaining and generating LS at least a little complicated so players could exploit synergies and work a bit if they want to make it really efficient. For instance greenhouses could maintain what LS you have, recyclers could extend how useful your LS is, and ISRU converters could produce more. With a little tinkering you could either maximize your output or just kind of muddle along. 

I designed a KS system that is super easy to be closed loop, but gets exponentially more difficult the more non LS people you have. There are 2 cycles, snacks-waste, a time limiter to kerbals working at all, with recyclers, that cut food usage by 1/4 and 1/2 if 5star engineer on board and greenhouses that turn 1waste into 1/4 snacks ans 1/2 if lvl5 scientist. Pilots have an ability to share LS in 2km and manually move resources in that distance, for balance and ease of colonizing. There's also space, that is a limiter to the efficiency of kerbals at work. Each kerbal uses 1 space, each empty seat gives 1, cupoulas multiply by 3/2 capped at 1 to all crew, dont stack. Efficiency=1-1/space)×stars×cupoula. So a hichiker+can+cupoula+recycler for 2+agroponics for 2 is self sufficient. To compensate for the exponential difficulty curve if let non LS prsonnel in, you can duplicate waste by adding an equal mass of ore and another equal of water (also propose a fuel system, ask if interested or this post will be infinite) in a lab/converter, making it net positive, and making this difficulty curve flat (not as Kerbin, but as a straight line) in big fully equiped surface bases, but a pain in orbit, encouraging to build more ISRU bases and less stranded OP labs in the middle of nowhere picking up tons of cheap science from Mun... as there's so easy recycling, its turnable off and all capsules have supplies to a week full (they'd be filled in a 1/3 basis to allow 100% eff) so 3 weeks, there is no grace periond (in practice is 3 weeks, but u can remove it or something..).

Kerbals can be on EVA as much as they (or you) want if in 2Km of the vessel, using its LS, if not there are upgrades in tech tree (KSPIE style) to improve EVA time, that dont recharges until again in the ship. The first week space dont matter.