WWII BAD-T V: The AI Strikes Back - BD AI Dogfight Tournament

[Pds314]

52 minutes ago, SuicidalInsanity said:

Match 8, between @Pds314's La-9 DPRK and @Alioth81's AL-25 Vulture:

 

That was really close.

 

On 10/29/2019 at 3:51 AM, Pds314 said:

My predictions for match 8:

At least two AL-25s suffer an RUD via controlled flight into terrain, without being unconscious.

Any match where the initial separation is over 11 km due to wingman wobble or something will be a victory for the AL-25s due to an La-9 entering GLOC at 220+ m/s.

At least one La-9 will GLOC during one of the matches. This will not result in a crash.

All matches will be pretty short unless someone goes after ground targets.

At least one AL-25 will suffer loss of an engine while remaining controllable.

No AL-25s will GLOC.

At least one match will lose one combatant on both sides from the initial merge or before they can reconverge, resulting in a 1v1.

1. Yup, 3 Vulture crashes without GLOC or damage.

2. Not sure.

3. Not sure.

4. WRONG! first match was over 10 minutes and nothing that hit the ground was intact enough to be a target.

5. Yup.

6. Pretty sure.

7. WRONG!

3-5 out of 7 predictions.

 

Also the ground got an ace in this as well. 5-6 kills.

Edited October 31, 2019 by Pds314

[Pds314]

It occurs to me that this means the aircraft with the shortest wings will be against the aircraft with the longest.

[sturmhauke]

3 hours ago, Pds314 said:

It occurs to me that this means the aircraft with the shortest wings will be against the aircraft with the longest.

Yeah I've kinda become known for strapping engines onto barn doors in other competitions.

[Pds314]

30 minutes ago, sturmhauke said:

Yeah I've kinda become known for strapping engines onto barn doors in other competitions.

Well the Krakenhound isn't just a barn door with engines though, is it? It looks pretty heavily optimized. Plus, I'm fairly sure it would clip the doorway of any barn I've ever seen... xD

 

One thing I am curious about is whether those large wings give it good low speed turning performance or whether its lift coefficient had to be restricted to avoid GLOC and aero failures. It should have very good sustained turn performance with such low span loading but I wonder about instantaneous turn rate.

Edited October 31, 2019 by Pds314

[Alioth81]

16 hours ago, SuicidalInsanity said:

Match 8, between @Pds314's La-9 DPRK and @Alioth81's AL-25 Vulture:

 

Such a disappointing last match...

Seeing them nose dive that hard.

Also showing that the most important part of the plane is the root with wings having so much HP.

I saw some dives that seemed to be related to beiing fired at but they never crashed as much during my testing as here...

I guess it must be a case of going to close to the limit and @Pds314 design.

Good job @Pds314! What mod did you use for decals? Do they influence FAR and how do they interact with BDAc hitpoints?

My guess reason for excessively suicidal behaviour of my pilots are:

- Too much risk taken by setting min height very low... But having it as low as possible is so important :-)

-AL-25 were significantly above max speed so they had excessive speed adjusted steer limiting.

- La-9 has very low min alt? And probably low default alt too. So the merge happened at low alt. I never tested against such a plane.

- the ground seemed quite a bit above sea level and i tested only around the space center

- AI sometimes not immediately pulling up below min height

I should have continued to optimize the very low speed design of the AL-26 with his Flak and not revert to this one - it could have lost with more style

@SuicidalInsanity

If the looser round happens with GLOC off can you put the speed adjusted steer limiter to 1 on the AL- 25? Else they probably happily crash there as well.

[sturmhauke]

12 hours ago, Pds314 said:

Well the Krakenhound isn't just a barn door with engines though, is it? It looks pretty heavily optimized. Plus, I'm fairly sure it would clip the doorway of any barn I've ever seen... xD

True. But this other plane I made is the real barn door. I don't know if it flies in FAR though.

Quote

One thing I am curious about is whether those large wings give it good low speed turning performance or whether its lift coefficient had to be restricted to avoid GLOC and aero failures. It should have very good sustained turn performance with such low span loading but I wonder about instantaneous turn rate.

You can see for yourself, it was in last year's competition. Or you can download it off my KerbalX page. I'd say it has good turn radius and energy retention, decent turn rate until it starts losing control surfaces (they're fairly large), mediocre climb rate and acceleration (drag could be optimized better), and subpar firepower. Although the damage calculations seem to have changed since the BDA version I built it for, so maybe it's better now?

[Pds314]

1 hour ago, Alioth81 said:

Such a disappointing last match...

Seeing them nose dive that hard.

Also showing that the most important part of the plane is the root with wings having so much HP.

I saw some dives that seemed to be related to beiing fired at but they never crashed as much during my testing as here...

I guess it must be a case of going to close to the limit and @Pds314 design.

Good job @Pds314! What mod did you use for decals? Do they influence FAR and how do they interact with BDAc hitpoints?

My guess reason for excessively suicidal behaviour of my pilots are:

- Too much risk taken by setting min height very low... But having it as low as possible is so important :-)

-AL-25 were significantly above max speed so they had excessive speed adjusted steer limiting.

- La-9 has very low min alt? And probably low default alt too. So the merge happened at low alt. I never tested against such a plane.

- the ground seemed quite a bit above sea level and i tested only around the space center

- AI sometimes not immediately pulling up below min height

I should have continued to optimize the very low speed design of the AL-26 with his Flak and not revert to this one - it could have lost with more style

@SuicidalInsanity

If the looser round happens with GLOC off can you put the speed adjusted steer limiter to 1 on the AL- 25? Else they probably happily crash there as well.

Yeah the last round was kinda pointlessly short. I don't think a single shot was fired past the merge.

For decals, I used B9 Procedural combined with Procedural Parts. They do affect performance and hitpoint values of other parts but the decals are also fairly lightweight, as you can see from the string of aerodisintegration explosions on the hammer-scythe-paintbrush in the first round. That whole decals weighs <1 kg with 9 parts. (Although it adds some extra weight in structural reinforcements to other parts).

Originally, they caused a 55 m/s top speed reduction. I.E. doubled or tripled the drag. This was because of procedural parts being thicker than the wing. Apparently, the wing doesn't really shadow the procedural parts from the airstream the way you would think. The solution is for the circles to be on both sides of the wing but only a centimeter in thickness. There is no such problem for the points of the red star, since they are B9 P-wings. They do however have a different problem, and that is that they intersect and Z-fight. I used editor extensions for easier five-way symmetry so seeing as I already had it, I also used it to roll the procedural wings by 1 degree off flat so Z-fighting was minimized. The decals may cause some drag in a turn, but probably not too much. In a straight line, it has within 1 m/s of the same top speed with and without decals.

They don't really hurt or help BDA hitpoints other than that they don't have much hitpoints themselves and they slightly increase the weight and connectedness of any wings they're attached too. I didn't notice any HP benefit.

Regarding La-9 altitides: not really. It's normal 500 minimum and 1500 default. Whereas your craft has 350 minimum and 500 default.

Edited October 31, 2019 by Pds314

[Alioth81]

@Pds314 creative use of parts. I tried once but always had issues with z fighting and ended up with huge part count. About how much do you elevate the wing decals to avoid z interference with the main wing?

I probably have to try again 

For the round parts you use a procedural structural part? That limits you to those colors correct? 

Regarding minimum height it should have been 450m so it seems i uploaded a slightly earlier version. However some crashes would have occurred anyway I guess.

Loved to watch the first fight. Seemed pretty even and was quite tense.

 

Edited November 1, 2019 by Alioth81

[Pds314]

1 hour ago, Alioth81 said:

@Pds314 creative use of parts. I tried once but always had issues with z fighting and ended up with huge part count. About how much do you elevate the wing decals to avoid z interference with the main wing?

I probably have to try again 

For the round parts you use a procedural structural part? That limits you to those colors correct? 

Regarding minimum height it should have been 450m so it seems i uploaded a slightly earlier version. However some crashes would have occurred anyway I guess.

Loved to watch the first fight. Seemed pretty even and was quite tense.

 

Yeah it lasted 10 whole minutes of actual combat. I was very worried I'd get one of those 23 mm exploding shells on some critical part or right on the elevators and flaps and then lawndart into the ground uncontrollably. That happened a bunch with my tests I did in 1.8 before the match.

Edited November 1, 2019 by Pds314

[tetryds]

The N-46 fought bravely, didn't fly well, didn't fight well and didn't stand a chance, neat.

[Pds314]

27 minutes ago, tetryds said:

The N-46 fought bravely, didn't fly well, didn't fight well and didn't stand a chance, neat.

Better to fight bravely and lose than win from cowardice?

[SuicidalInsanity]

Now that the preliminary matches are done, I could just move on to the next set, but, since BDAc now has multi-team support, and I've made numerous improvements to the Team Icons plugin since v1.0, it means it's time for a surprise BAD-T V Bonus match: a Just-For-Fun, No-Stakes Battle Royale between the eight winners of the preliminaries:
Ave Kraken, mouturi te salutamis!

*This has no effect on the bracket standings, and results may or may not be indicative of how the official matches will go down. Remember, those are 2v2, while this is a Free-For-All 1v7 brawl.
 

Edited November 2, 2019 by SuicidalInsanity

[Pds314]

 

1 hour ago, SuicidalInsanity said:

Now that the preliminary matches are done, I could just move on to the next set, but, since BDAc now has multi-team support, and I've made numerous improvements to the Team Icons plugin since v1.0, it means it's time for a surprise BAD-T V Bonus match: a Just-For-Fun, No-Stakes Battle Royale between the eight winners of the preliminaries:
Ave Kraken, mouturi te salutamis!

*This has no effect on the bracket standings, and results may or may not be indicative of how the official matches will go down. Remember, those are 2v2, while this is a Free-For-All 1v7 brawl.
 

Ah yes, when the Chinese United Front doesn't form and the allies, comintern, axis, and co-prosperity sphere are all fighting each other with no larger alliances while India is overthrowing the Brits. And America does war plan red.

Meanwhile....

Spoiler

 

Edited November 2, 2019 by Pds314

[SuicidalInsanity]

Match 9, between Bot Julius' Aero Imperial and @GDJ's AVRO Defender:

I think this is the first match of BAD-T V where a plane has run out of ammo.

[GDJ]

2 hours ago, SuicidalInsanity said:

Match 9, between Bot Julius' Aero Imperial and @GDJ's AVRO Defender:

I think this is the first match of BAD-T V where a plane has run out of ammo.

At least I wasn't a total sitting duck. Kinda wished I could have fixed the aim issues I was having.

Ah well. Congrats are in order for the winner. Well done!

[Pds314]

3 hours ago, SuicidalInsanity said:

Match 9, between Bot Julius' Aero Imperial and @GDJ's AVRO Defender:

I think this is the first match of BAD-T V where a plane has run out of ammo.

That was.. brutal. Bot Julius/Aeroimperial is a heccin frightenbirb.

Maybe not enough to kill WCC though.

Edited November 4, 2019 by Pds314

[sturmhauke]

2 hours ago, GDJ said:

At least I wasn't a total sitting duck. Kinda wished I could have fixed the aim issues I was having.

Ah well. Congrats are in order for the winner. Well done!

At least you looked good getting shot down?

[GDJ]

5 hours ago, sturmhauke said:

At least you looked good getting shot down?

Ha ha ha.  


It's just a game. There will be winners and losers. Good luck to those going forward.

Edited November 4, 2019 by GDJ

[Jeb-head-mug kerman]

Anybody think a WWI BADT would be a good idea?

Edited November 5, 2019 by Jeb-head-mug kerman

[Pds314]

6 hours ago, Jeb-head-mug kerman said:

Anybody think a WWI BADT would be a good idea?

Yeah we need lighter, smaller engines and weaker guns, and a mandatory open cockpit rule, but I'm definitely down for that.

 

I'm thinking short rotary and inline engines in the 100-250 kg range, with minimum aircraft weights for fighters being 400 kg or so and heavy fighters being 850 kg. Static thrust should be around 3-8 kN but should drop off a lot with speed due to fixed pitch props. Basically you should be getting next to no thrust at 80 m/s and very low thrust well before that. With the option for single engine heavies being available as well.

 

Does anyone know if any caliber besides 7.92 or .303 or similar was used in WWI?

Edited November 5, 2019 by Pds314

[aleksey444]

6 hours ago, Jeb-head-mug kerman said:

Anybody think a WWI BADT would be a good idea?

Yes, some thought so two years ago:

https://forum.kerbalspaceprogram.com/index.php?/topic/165670-ww2-bad-t-iii-bdac-ai-dogfight-tournament/page/17/

Scroll down and you'll see some bi- and triplane pictures, and a video of a fight.

I would love to see a WWI-themed tournament, and to build some biplanes.  But I can also see the difficulties in setting this up.  Judging from that discussion two years ago, there are some issues in balancing the weapons, because Aviator Arsenal weapons are too powerful for the period.  I would guess balancing the engines' thrust and weight is similarly challenging, as it took several BAD-T tournaments before the current settings became the norm.  The max part count will likely need to be increased, because wings would now need twice or thrice the number of parts, plus struts, plus at least few extra parts to construct an open cockpit.  This would mean the host of the tournament might need a more power computer to maintain the same frame-rate and quality of the videos.  And of course, someone actually has to be the host and record the battles, and @SuicidalInsanity may or may not have time for that.

But if it happens, and I have time, I will definitely build a plane.

[SuicidalInsanity]

Some Schwarzlose variants used 8x50, there was an Italian 9mm SMG, and I guess comedy options Becker M2 20mm and Vickers QF MkII 40mm.

The main thing with the weapon balance back then was this was right when BDA was transitioning from the heat based damage model to the current HP one; I have a fairly good understanding of how the current system works at present, so adjusting damage really isn't too much of a hassle now. Thinking more on it, I also have some ideas on how to manage part count, even for things like triplanes, and even how to achieve synchro-gear weapons. Finishing out the WWI weapons pack I started wouldn't be too difficult, either. The main obstacle I can see would be ruleset - craft class/masses/weapon and engine point cost/are scarff ring 'turrets' allowed, etc which means either fun with spreadsheets or a BADT-lite contest like the DJA that's less balanced but more open to experimentation to find what works. But ultimately it would come down to the twin deciding factors of interest there would be for such a thing and time I (or someone else) has to host it.

[Pds314]

2 hours ago, SuicidalInsanity said:

Some Schwarzlose variants used 8x50, there was an Italian 9mm SMG, and I guess comedy options Becker M2 20mm and Vickers QF MkII 40mm.

The main thing with the weapon balance back then was this was right when BDA was transitioning from the heat based damage model to the current HP one; I have a fairly good understanding of how the current system works at present, so adjusting damage really isn't too much of a hassle now. Thinking more on it, I also have some ideas on how to manage part count, even for things like triplanes, and even how to achieve synchro-gear weapons. Finishing out the WWI weapons pack I started wouldn't be too difficult, either. The main obstacle I can see would be ruleset - craft class/masses/weapon and engine point cost/are scarff ring 'turrets' allowed, etc which means either fun with spreadsheets or a BADT-lite contest like the DJA that's less balanced but more open to experimentation to find what works. But ultimately it would come down to the twin deciding factors of interest there would be for such a thing and time I (or someone else) has to host it.

I just thought of something incredibly silly but kinda realistic. A pilot seat with a turret mounted to it with a 150 rpm 45 ACP gun that overheats after only 6 shots. Muzzle velocity of 300 m/s.

Edited November 5, 2019 by Pds314

[Jeb-head-mug kerman]

10 hours ago, Pds314 said:

and a mandatory open cockpit rule, but I'm definitely down for that.

Maybe the mod OpenCockpit would work? It is outdated, but it works as I use it myself.

[GDJ]

3 hours ago, Jeb-head-mug kerman said:

Maybe the mod OpenCockpit would work? It is outdated, but it works as I use it myself.

Yep. That's a good one to consider.

Also I have one request if we are going to do a WWI themed battle: Include Firespitter parts.

Between Firespitter and the new Firespitter Extended mod there is at least 5 different variants of biplanes, and the right parts to build a triplane.

Since I'm a glutton for punishment, I'm in.