Orbital Mechanics in STAR WARS Blockades

[Mars-Bound Hokie]

In the beginning of STAR WARS Episode I: The Phantom Menace, the Trade Federation supposedly blockades the planet of Naboo. Its main goal is to pressure its ruler into signing a treaty by cutting off all trade going on and off the planet.

 

However, from an orbital mechanics standpoint, I'm not sure this blockade is even that effective.

 

• Wookiepedia image of the Naboo blockade

 

First of all, the image is showing the Trade Federation ships blocking one part of the planet rather than the whole thing. Even if the ships weren't in geostationary orbit above a specific location, a trade ship could simply enter the planet from the other side without risk of getting shot. Since it is established that STAR WARS ships have hyperdrives, couldn't they just jump somewhere else and then approach from behind.

• If the blockade ships weren't geostationary, then the trade ships could just time their approach and make their Naboo insertion burn when the bad guys are supposed to be at the other side of the planet.
• Given how dense the blockade looked in the picture, it would have probably put the Trade Federation in debt to cover the whole planet rather than just one side.
  • Besides, if Han Solo was alive at the time, he could just drop out of hyperspeed right as he passes the blockade (like he did in The Force Awakens)

 

Second of all, just how long does it take for Trade Federation ships to get within firing range of approaching ships? Sure, the bad guys can deploy vulture droids, but even they must comply with the laws of physics when moving to intercept. Assuming the blockade is moving in a circular prograde orbit (geostationary or not), they would most likely have to adjust their orbital planes and wait quite a while before making their intercept burn. 

• Not to mention that, if a trade ship enters Naboo's SOI or blasts off in RETROGRADE (or at least the opposite inclination of the blockade), the bad guys would either have to launch their intercept craft from the surface or waste a significant amount of delta-V to destroy the ship.
  • They apparently also forgot to take polar orbits into account, which also deals with the first point I mentioned. The trade ship could be on the other side of the planet from the blockade before they breach the atmosphere.

 

(For this diagram, let's assume Naboo is about the size of Earth for simplicity's sake)

 

Anything I'm missing or overlooking here? Agree or disagree? Feel free to leave your questions/concerns/comments on this thread here. Have fun, and as always, may the Force be with you.

[Spacescifi]

16 minutes ago, Mars-Bound Hokie said:

In the beginning of STAR WARS Episode I: The Phantom Menace, the Trade Federation supposedly blockades the planet of Naboo. Its main goal is to pressure its ruler into signing a treaty by cutting off all trade going on and off the planet.

 

However, from an orbital mechanics standpoint, I'm not sure this blockade is even that effective.

 

• Wookiepedia image of the Naboo blockade

 

First of all, the image is showing the Trade Federation ships blocking one part of the planet rather than the whole thing. Even if the ships weren't in geostationary orbit above a specific location, a trade ship could simply enter the planet from the other side without risk of getting shot. Since it is established that STAR WARS ships have hyperdrives, couldn't they just jump somewhere else and then approach from behind.

• If the blockade ships weren't geostationary, then the trade ships could just time their approach and make their Naboo insertion burn when the bad guys are supposed to be at the other side of the planet.
• Given how dense the blockade looked in the picture, it would have probably put the Trade Federation in debt to cover the whole planet rather than just one side.
  • Besides, if Han Solo was alive at the time, he could just drop out of hyperspeed right as he passes the blockade (like he did in The Force Awakens)

 

Second of all, just how long does it take for Trade Federation ships to get within firing range of approaching ships? Sure, the bad guys can deploy vulture droids, but even they must comply with the laws of physics when moving to intercept. Assuming the blockade is moving in a circular prograde orbit (geostationary or not), they would most likely have to adjust their orbital planes and wait quite a while before making their intercept burn. 

• Not to mention that, if a trade ship enters Naboo's SOI or blasts off in RETROGRADE (or at least the opposite inclination of the blockade), the bad guys would either have to launch their intercept craft from the surface or waste a significant amount of delta-V to destroy the ship.
  • They apparently also forgot to take polar orbits into account, which also deals with the first point I mentioned. The trade ship could be on the other side of the planet from the blockade before they breach the atmosphere.

 

(For this diagram, let's assume Naboo is about the size of Earth for simplicity's sake)

 

Anything I'm missing or overlooking here? Agree or disagree? Feel free to leave your questions/concerns/comments on this thread here. Have fun, and as always, may the Force be with you.

 

Star Wars also shows spaceships flying like airplanes in space without thruster RCS burns.

I would not worry about it.

There is nothing you can do about it. All you can do is write scifi that fits whatever known science you want... while also compensating for known science limits.

[Guest]

You can't really do a close blockade in space unless your fleet is really gigantic. In fact, with jumpdrives like in SW blockades are pretty much useless (even if you can't do the crazy stuff they're doing in the sequel trilogy) unless you set up a giant Starlink-like constellation of warships. A far blockade (ships evenly spaced at some higher orbit, giving chase after anything that leaves the planet) is easier to evade and requires a hyperspace inhibitor of some kind, but it's likely the only feasible means of stopping traffic to a planet. In this case, you're supposed to ignore it. SW is science fantasy, and so it gets more leeway than usual.

[Superfluous J]

1 hour ago, Mars-Bound Hokie said:

In the beginning of STAR WARS

Let me stop you right there.

[Reactordrone]

I'm not sure they're in orbit. Usually in star wars a damaged ship will fall when it loses power indicating that they're holding themselves up with some kind of repulsor field. There may also be clusters of blockading ships all around the planet. They don't need to be within visual range to each have overlapping intercept areas.

[cubinator]

Maybe the Naboo, who live mainly on one side of the planet, are the main concern of ships coming and going, and the aquatic Gungans are much less active in space.

[Spacescifi]

2 hours ago, 5thHorseman said:

Let me stop you right there.

 

Yeah. There are places online that discuss fictional physics of various universes far more in depth than KSP.... for reasons that to me lack a great deal of substance.

Such as:

1. Ridicule. Either directed at the work or online posters.

2. Scorn. Ditto as far as behavior toward others.

3. To utilize the information to decide what scifi universe would beat what scifi universe in battle.

It's quite toxic.

KSP will allow civilized discussions of science and theoretical methods, but won't stray much into fantasies of well known franchises.

I prefer it that way.

[Treveli]

Think the first thing to do in this case is take the laws of orbital mechanics and toss them. Ships in Star Wars are supposed to be able to accelerate at thousands of gravities, with repulsorlifts allowing them to lift from the surface without much effort. 'Orbit' only applies to ships with their engines off line, and stations/satellites. And the ships seen at the start of TPM could just be the command squadron for ships scattered around Naboo's orbit (and the whole system, for that matter). There could have been hundreds of corvette sized ships covering the gaps between the big boys.

And I still keep it as head cannon that only smaller ships (Falcon, U-wings, fighters) can jump into/out of a planets atmosphere, or deep into it's gravity well. Large and cumbersome freighters would still need to drop out farther out, where the TF's ships could intercept. And even though the Federation's ships aren't proper warships, incoming freighters would still desperately try to stay away from them and their armament (I can't remember if there's ever been an official max range for turbolasers. I assume it's in the light-second range). And the Vuture droids could chase down what the Lucrehulk's couldn't overtake. So unless Naboo can survive on shipments of a hundred tons or less per run, it's economy and industries will start to fail.

Not that the blockade mattered in the end. It was all just to get their forces into position to invade and force Naboo to surrender before the Republic interfered. All part of Palpatine's overall strategy.

[sevenperforce]

As @Treveli said, the ships in the SW canon are never in orbit. If you recall Revenge of the Sith, Anakin lands the Invisible Hand after it is disabled in space. The moment its artificial gravity goes haywire, it immediately starts dropping out of the sky. Its entry is hot, but not as hot as it would be if the ship was orbital.

SW vehicles (even little speeders) have artificial gravity and can interact directly with a gravitational gradient without using propellant. They do require power, though.

One can presume that there is some power interaction between shields, engines, and hyperspace drives, such that a network of ships floating around Naboo could lay down an effective field of fire that would impede any ship trying to enter. Once forced to engage, the entering ship is stalled and so the fleet can converge.

Often in real naval history, a blockade is not necessarily about the physical limitations of the ships, but about making a statement. Moor a 120-gun ship-of-the-line carrying 900 crew at the entrance to a bay, and any ports in that bay are effectively shut down. Just because it's possible to sneak a longboat into the bay under cover of night doesn't mean you can maintain shipping; the point is deterrence.

Edited January 13, 2020 by sevenperforce

[kerbiloid]

For a 100 000 t heavy ship in LEO they need to apply ~1 GN of Force.

(Don't know how much is this in yodas.)

[tater]

There is no orbital mechanics in SW, as far as I can tell.

[Rakaydos]

More than a lack of orbital mechanics, Star Wars operates under Luminiferus Aether (an old theory long since debunked for our own universe, but still interesting from a fictional standpoint) EXCEPT when an author tries to get "realistic" for a moment. In addition, there appears to be a neutral plane in space that less maneuverable ships will naturally align with, with a natural sense of "Up" and "Down" that isn't aligned with any celestial body. More maneuverable ships can Dive or Climb relative to this neutral plane, but it takes maneuver force to do so. Less maneuverable ships can "trim" their altitude slightly, presumably with the same tech that lets speeders float in a planetary gravity well.

There also appears to be a scaling factor on the interface between a planet and space- launching from great distances apart will put you close together once you reach space.  This also generally seems to put all travelers on the same "side" of the planet.

 

What does this mean for a blockade?

First things first, you can float in space outside the planetary reference frame, no need for an orbit, Second, you only need to cover the neutral plane above where ships transition.

[TheSaint]

Remember that part in Episode III where Obi-Wan and Anakin boarded the Separatist ship, and the ship kept rocking from side-to-side so everyone kept sliding around on the floor?

Or the part in Episode VIII where the bombers flew over the enemy ship and dropped their bombs onto it?

47 minutes ago, tater said:

There is no orbital mechanics physics in SW, as far as I can tell.

Fixed it for you.

Amusingly, I don't really have major problems with the scene that that OP showed. So, the Trade Federation had ships in orbit around the entire planet, they just happened to show you the ones that were on this side, that were within visible range of the viewer. And if a ship lifts off retrograde, directed-energy weapons really don't care. For all of the cinematic crimes that were committed in Episode I, this is the least of their worries.

[kerbiloid]

1 hour ago, tater said:

There is no orbital mechanics in SW

There is orbitrary mechanics instead.

[Klapaucius]

In movies like Star Wars, I don't worry about it too much. They set up a fantasy world and as long as they are consistent with their own rules, I am fine with it.

 

Now, a few months ago I saw Ad Astra....   It is supposed to be a plausible near future. Where do I start????

Was it the 70 day return to earth from Neptune?  Was it a Mars bound ship stopping mid way to help another disabled craft that was just drifting (because of course, hey, the engines are down, so the ship cannot possibly be moving right? And hey, it is not too far out of the way, we'll just turn a bit).

Perhaps the problem is one of semantics. We call them spaceships, and then everyone treats them as though they move like actual ocean ships (when they are not behaving like aircraft).

 

[TheSaint]

44 minutes ago, kerbiloid said:

There is orbitrary mechanics instead.

Arbitrary mechanics?

[kerbiloid]

2 minutes ago, TheSaint said:

Arbitrary mechanics?

Arbitrary orbital mechanics. Orbitrary.

[Superfluous J]

7 hours ago, tater said:

There is no orbital mechanics in SW, as far as I can tell.

The first death star orbited Yavin, but that was just to give the rebels time to blow it up.

Edited January 14, 2020 by 5thHorseman

[Zeiss Ikon]

It's important to remember that Star Wars is not science fiction.  Even in 1977 when A New Hope hit theaters, Lucas was calling it space opera.  E.E. "Doc" Smith (one of the greatest space opera authors ever) had only been dead a few years at the time, and the Perry Rodin books were still being translated into English.

Space opera doesn't depend on science in any way: it's action/adventure with blasters instead of pistols and submachine guns, starships instead of airplanes, and a society commonly more like 18th century Europe than any reasonable outgrowth of our modern world.

Nothing bad about that -- space opera has produced some great works of fiction (the Lensman series, for instance, or the Barsoom stories).  Just don't confuse it with science fiction.

Edited January 14, 2020 by Zeiss Ikon

[sevenperforce]

22 hours ago, TheSaint said:

Remember that part in Episode III where Obi-Wan and Anakin boarded the Separatist ship, and the ship kept rocking from side-to-side so everyone kept sliding around on the floor?

Or the part in Episode VIII where the bombers flew over the enemy ship and dropped their bombs onto it?

If the ships stay aloft on repulsorlifts rather than by being in orbit, all this makes sense. You still have gravity up there.

Same with the Battle of Scarif in Rogue One. That shield gate wasn't in orbit; that shield gate was floating on repulsorlifts, and once a Star Destroyer had its own repulsorlift disabled, it crashed into the shield gate, frying its repulsors and shutting down the shield.

It seems that the ships have a sort of "gravitational brake" that locks onto a gravitational gradient with only a small amount of power consumption. Ships can move freely using reaction thrusters in the plane normal to that gradient, but moving up or down in the gravitational potential field is a little trickier. 

On the topic of Star Wars, I wrote this article about watching the final film...let me know what you all think!

https://medium.com/@davidstarlingm/the-final-order-watching-star-wars-for-the-first-time-c840eac4db52

[kerbiloid]

When you have, say, 1 000 000 km/s of total delta-V onboard, you can hardly recall what's that "orbit".
You just keep your ship switched on. And recharge it from time to time.

Edited January 14, 2020 by kerbiloid

[sh1pman]

16 hours ago, kerbiloid said:

When you have, say, 1 000 000 km/s of total delta-V onboard, you can hardly recall what's that "orbit".
You just keep your ship switched on. And recharge it from time to time.

But we don't even see any thrusters on the underside. So no fuel expended, no need to recharge. Newton's Third Law was repealed by the Senate, it looks like.

Edited January 15, 2020 by sh1pman

[kerbiloid]

10 minutes ago, sh1pman said:

But we don't even see any thrusters on the underside. So no fuel expended, no need to recharge. 

Both classic Death Stars needed reactors (otherwise they would be invincible), so probably they spend some energy. But in which manner, it stays unclear.

P.S.
The LotR is more clear. All Mordor plants were Sau-powered, and connected to the Orodruin. When they threw a ringed conductor into the volcano, a short circuit killed the scheme.
Though, questions still are.
1. Did they need exactly that Ring, or any metal contour would be good enough (say, an aluminium wire)?
2 So, the whole story was about killing the first geothermal powerplant in the world?
3. The eagles... You know...

Edited January 15, 2020 by kerbiloid

[Starman4308]

Other major points have previously been covered (e.g. Star Wars vessels throwing the term "orbit" out the window).

Otherwise, that could simply be one of many squadrons covering Naboo. If Star Wars vessels are able to shoot at ranges of a few thousand kilometers (which admittedly throws out the SW aesthetic of Battle of Jutland in SPAAAAAACE), you'd need just three squadrons to cover 90%-ish of the surface and all of the low orbit approach vectors above a certain altitude. Four squadrons, you have 100% coverage.

I'm assuming that for some reason or another, to support each other, these squadrons have to be placed at distances that would make sense at the Battle of Jutland, and not at distances that would make sense in harder sci-fi (i.e. "visual range is knife-fighting range").