The Horrors Of War VS Scifi

[Spacescifi]

 

My experience with scifi is mostly from TV, namely Star Wars, Star Trek, and Babylon 5.

Of them all Babylon 5 inserts the most realism, but even then, it does not come even close to how atrocious war is IRL.

Often war is glorified as noble and righteous, but IRL it rarely if ever is. Revenge upon revenge leads to atrocity after atrocity.

I won't get into detail... as it is beyond forums rules, you can look it up if you wish.

The conquest of Berlin did not go well for the women. In some cases they resorted to getting in relationships with one conquering high rank officer simply to avoid assault by large groups. Other times they tried to disguise themselves as men or very old women. 

Neither did things go well for prisoners in the pacific front. Let's just say some people were running low on food and leave it at that?

 

Visual media scifi never really seems to go this dark, neither am I suggesting it should.

At the most, I do like it when war is presented as it truly is... which is usually a lot of carnage and wrongs that cannot be justified even if one tries to.

No, I don't suggest graphic recreations, but I would at least mention it offhand in conversation, or tell instead of show.

Since there are some things that really do not need to be seen.

I just am tired of war being sanitized as if  it is cleaner and not as damaging as it truly is.

 

In scifi.

Edited March 26, 2020 by Spacescifi

[Shpaget]

Since you mention Star Trek, have you seen DS9? Cardassian occupation of Bajor is quite often referenced and events of war crimes (on both sides) told about.

However, I would agree with you, war crime against civilians is not a recurring theme in science fiction, possibly because sci fi is supposed to be fun and enjoyable and most people don't find fun and joy in genocide, gas chambers, and senseless murder.

Authors (good ones at least) try to make the reader feel an emotional connection with characters in their novels, and it's usually hard to do so when the protagonist is laughing maniacally while pouring battery acid down a child's throat.

If you want to write gore, sure, there's market and audience for that, but don't be supersized if majority of general population finds that unpalatable.

[DDE]

34 minutes ago, Spacescifi said:

No, I don't suggest graphic recreations, but I would at least mention it offhand in conversation

And that, perhaps, is the big problem. You generally don't see it mentioned offhand. You see it blasted full-tilt by enemy propaganda - which creates a bias against believing in reality of these acts - you see them discussed in the thick shroud of euphemisms, or not discussed at all because this is how things are normally done.

A further problem I can see is that, often to escalate the grimdark factor, a sci-fi setting will instead turn to an unconventional, alien adversary that thus defies our very understanding of the concepts of war crimes. There are reasons why gung-ho sci-fi too likes hive minds, clones or armies of robots.

Edited March 26, 2020 by DDE

[Bill Phil]

Slaughterhouse Five is all about the bombing of Dresden and the psychological effect of the bombing on a WWII vet. 

I only mention it cause aliens show up - but it’s debatable if these aliens are real or just a figment of the main character’s imagination.

[Spacescifi]

1 hour ago, Shpaget said:

 

Authors (good ones at least) try to make the reader feel an emotional connection with characters in their novels, and it's usually hard to do so when the protagonist is laughing maniacally while pouring battery acid down a child's throat.

If you want to write gore, sure, there's market and audience for that, but don't be supersized if majority of general population finds that unpalatable.

LOL.

I do not have the heart to write such a scene even though I could.

At most I might have such a character who has done such cruelty, trying to actually become someone who does NOT do that.

Which would be hard... but possible. Not to mention dealing with survivors who know exactly what the character has done.

I guess what I am getting at is that seldom is it the case that a hero in war is simply a hero who saves lives. 

Others would consider them a war criminal.

You know the statement that one man's hero is another's villain?

That is more true than I even believed my early days.

I used to think that was something smarmy villains said on star trek (*cough* Dukat), but in reality that is VERY true.

Being cruel is cruel no matter who is doing it l, be it the 'good guys' or the 'bad guys'.

 

I would attempt to give that some clarity, and if there was an alien race noble enough to not go around doing whatever they liked to conquered females and prisoners, I would guess on some level their adversaries would respect them, even if they did not return the favor, they may at least be more willing to  surrender knowing the victors are not going to go Assyrian on them.

Edited March 26, 2020 by Spacescifi

[XB-70A]

1 hour ago, Spacescifi said:

Often war is glorified as noble and righteous, but IRL it rarely if ever is.

 

While this is mostly true for a good amount of Eurasian cultures, other cultures are not glorifying the concept of war. China is an interesting case. To be honest, I would be very interested to find the difference of numbers between statues and memorials dedicated to warriors and officers in China, and those dedicated to thinkers, philosophers, and leaders.

[StrandedonEarth]

I know you’re talking about sci-fi but have you seen Saving Private Ryan?   That opening sequence is a good plunge into the horrors of war.

But for a more sci-fi flavour there’s Starship Troopers . I know people say it’s a terrible movie but just forget about the book it’s based on and it’s good campy fun with some savage warfare in there, even if it’s just bigS bugs..

[Shpaget]

6 minutes ago, StrandedonEarth said:

I know people say it’s a terrible movie

Who said that? I would like to know more.

[XB-70A]

33 minutes ago, StrandedonEarth said:

That opening sequence is a good plunge into the horrors of war.

If someone want a slightly more real sight, it could go for Cross of Iron (1977) or Stalingrad (1993). Similarly, Das Boot (1981) is still one of the few movie to give somewhat an idea of what the submarine warfare was 80 years ago.

 

28 minutes ago, Shpaget said:

Who said that? I would like to know more.

Probably those who don't like the idea that Verhoeven and his team destroyed the original militarist novel.

 

Edited March 26, 2020 by XB-70A

[Kerbart]

Come and see is a "great" movie if you want to be exposed to the horrors of war (for civilians). Warning: graphic, and a bit hard to stomach.

[Superfluous J]

4 hours ago, Spacescifi said:

In scifi.

You talk like scifi is alone in glorifying war. What about all other fiction, almost without exception, from all of time?

And that's just restricting it to FICTION.

[Nuke]

i think deep space nine had a few good war episodes. and there's always starship troopers. 

my favorite war movie is probably siege at firebase gloria. i think i like that its narrated like an early live action disney film while simultaneously being a grimdark vietnam war movie.

i forget what it was called but there was this fairly recent alien invasion movie with a more or less conventional warfare, where some soldiers captured an alien and proceeded to mutilate it until they found a weak point that they could exploit. 

Edited March 27, 2020 by Nuke

[kerbiloid]

1. Take Simplicius Simplicissimus.
2. Replace muskets with blasters.
....
9. Profit!!!

***

Upd.
Take an innocent robot, give it a name (say, Galileo), then throw it into the gas giant, laughing demonically.

Edited March 27, 2020 by kerbiloid

[Spacescifi]

2 hours ago, Nuke said:

i think deep space nine had a few good war episodes. and there's always starship troopers. 

my favorite war movie is probably siege at firebase gloria. i think i like that its narrated like an early live action disney film while simultaneously being a grimdark vietnam war movie.

i forget what it was called but there was this fairly recent alien invasion movie with a more or less conventional warfare, where some soldiers captured an alien and proceeded to mutilate it until they found a weak point that they could exploit. 

 

Battle Of LA

Personally, I found the Skyline movie (first one) aliens far more scary.

Humans actually lose for a change.

They go down swinging though, which is admirable.

[DDE]

8 hours ago, Shpaget said:

Who said that? I would like to know more.

Because for starters no-one can even make their own mind whether the movie is a satire or not:

7 hours ago, XB-70A said:

Probably those who don't like the idea that Verhoeven and his team destroyed the original militarist novel.

The problem is that Verhoeven never even read past the first chapter and yet attempted to, ahem, destroy the novel. The problem being that he was so vigorously opposed to the novel's message that he never bothered to make a good case against it: it's just a political system he assumes everyone agrees is utterly evil. Meanwhile, the goofy all-infantry tactics in the film are par the course for both sci-fi and non-sci-fi fiction.

He very barely threw in a few more 'villainous' aspects, such as non-citizens not being allowed to have children, and the Federation procuring their uniforms from Hugo Boss Sr, but he never tried attacking the core premise. Indeed, in the film the Federation proves to be both quite meritocratic - the Sky Marshal quits as soon as they fail - and transparent - no sane dictatorship would embed a live TV crew with a forward drop detachment.

The fact that people have to come up with a "bug plasma can't melt steel beams"-level theory about the Buenos Aires attack for the film to make sense as satire is telling, and the sequels decided to quadruple down on absolute cartoonish villainy to keep up the charade.

[kerbiloid]

The horror top is Lexx (probably age-rated, idk) where they've done many horrible things in real time and even destroyed

(spoiler alert)

Spoiler

two universes and the Earth

 

Edited March 27, 2020 by kerbiloid

[Nuke]

16 hours ago, Spacescifi said:

 

Battle Of LA

Personally, I found the Skyline movie (first one) aliens far more scary.

Humans actually lose for a change.

They go down swinging though, which is admirable.

yep, thats the one.

as for skyline, you didnt watch the crappy low budget sequal did you? 

Edited March 27, 2020 by Nuke

[steve_v]

14 hours ago, kerbiloid said:

Lexx

Now there's a deliciously twisted show if ever there was one.

[Spacescifi]

2 hours ago, Nuke said:

yep, thats the one.

as for skyline, you didnt watch the crappy low budget sequal did you? 

 

Nah... just the first one.

 

I love the scene where they launch a nuke and... surprise, surprise, no SCIFI SHIELDS!

Yet seeing the alien ship repair the damage so rapidly was far more scary than a typical scifi alien invasion.

These aliens are seemingly inspired by horror movie monsters who cannot be stopped... only stalled.

[KSK]

It's not particularly difficult to find examples from sci-fi that portray the horrors of war on the individual.

The Forever War by Joe Haldeman.

Rejected by numerous publishers on the grounds that 'people don't want to read about Vietnam in space'. Depicts interstellar war fought at relativistic velocities with time dilation being very much a thing. Protagonist is a soldier who survives his first tour of duty, returns to Earth in his future to find that he no longer fits in with society - and society no longer has any particular respect or tolerance for the war veterans. Rejoins the military because there's nothing else left for him.

Starship Troopers by Robert Heinlein

It's been mentioned before upthread but the book literally begins by depicting a 'demonstration of frightfulness' (aka a shock-and-awe terrorist attack) by Terran Federation forces. Protagonist casually nukes a spaceport and his only concern is that (as per his training) he's gotta get his money's worth with atomic munitions. 

Ender's Game by Orson Scott Card.

Can't say too much without giving away spoilers but once you get past the cool sci-fi stuff, pretty much the entire book is about the ends justifying the means. The means in this case being the eugenic selection and psychological manipulation of child soldiers. 

Edited March 30, 2020 by KSK

[kerbiloid]

Louis Bujold, the Vorkosigan Saga.

Warhammer 40k is all about this, too.

[radonek]

War of the Worlds

It's totally war, it's definitely scifi and it's absolute classic. 

On 3/30/2020 at 9:05 AM, kerbiloid said:

Warhammer 40k is all about this, too.

Yeah but it pretty much glorifies that excrements (with notable exception of Emperors Text to Speech Device)

[DDE]

1 hour ago, radonek said:

Yeah but it pretty much glorifies that excrements (with notable exception of Emperors Text to Speech Device)

The standard Imperium apologia is that it also depicts a universe where this glorification is necessary for society to function.

[Spacescifi]

5 hours ago, DDE said:

The standard Imperium apologia is that it also depicts a universe where this glorification is necessary for society to function.

 

True... but the same alien attack scene should get wrecked by even IRL forces...  so long they had sufficient prep and knew what they were up against.

Thos flying aliens are huge slow targets that anti-aircraft guns and missiles could bring down.

 

And radar can detect a swarm of targets that big far away.

 

Nuclear air burst anyone?

 

Poor tactics are a staple in scifi it seems, using ancient tactics with fictional weaponry.

 

 

[DDE]

7 minutes ago, Spacescifi said:

Poor tactics are a staple in scifi it seems

Fiction, really. No era seems to evade that fate. Even caveman warfare.