[1.8.x-1.10.x] RealFuels-Stock v5.1.0. - Stockalike RealFuels Configs [18th August 2020]

[TranceaddicT]

2 hours ago, Iodyne said:

Yeah you can use 

@SUBTYPE,* {

 

I was trying something similar; I noticed that getting rid of the "tankType" in the part files directly or turning them into tankType:NEEDS[!RealFuels] works. But I didn't write a universal one; you can see my attempt earlier in the thread here.

@Part[*]:HAS[@MODULE[ModuleB9PartSwitch]:HAS[SUBTYPE:HAS[tankType]]]:FINAL //:AFTER[RealFuels]
{
	@MODULE[ModuleB9PartSwitch],*
	{
		@SUBTYPE[*],*
		{
			!tankType = DEL
			!addedMass = DEL
			!addedCost = DEL
		}
	}
}

This is how far I got; doesn't seem to work and not sure what to do from here

Change

@MODULE[ModuleB9PartSwitch],* { @SUBTYPE[*],*

to

@MODULE[ModuleB9PartSwitch],* { @SUBTYPE,*

[Bellabong]

And they're done. Well, nothing is broken and I've made workarounds for the meshswitching until B9PartSwitch gets an update.
Engine tech levels need some balancing probably.

RealFuels-Stock for BDB 1.7
Current State: RELEASE CANDIDATE  - pending BDB 1.7 release

These are engine and tank configurations for BDB 1.7dev up to the CentaurD RL10 addition even though RealFuels is pretty incompatible with B9PartSwitch configurations but most of it is working. 

Configs are based on the configs in BD_Extras although they've been completely overhauled since there's been a lot of changes to BDB since that was released. Some older configs are in the Deprecated folder for backwards compatability. 

Variable tank sizes from newer BDB parts using B9PartSwitch aren't supported. As a workaround each tank is duplicated, sensibly renamed and their default selection changed but you can still select each length

All engines featured in BDB 1.7dev have RF versions of their B9 configs including appropriate variant fuels such as the HDA 8096 and RP-1 powered Titan engines configured. There's even a few extra configs and more variants are planned based on spelunking through RO configs and Astronautix* I hope in the future to have engine type and and bell switching affect performance on their own so you could use the 8096 HDA engine with the 8041 bell and it'd have better performance but loose a lot of effiency because of the smaller bell size. Don't know why you would want to though...

All engines make use of techlevels for fine tuning (requires a lot of balancing though, some b) and their subtype requirements have the appropriate tech requirement.

Nearly all the RCS should be flexible in its configuration and have appropriate tech requirements.

Thrust is based on BDB values and scaled RO values for extra configs. Currently testing whether each historical vehicle can fullfill the Historic Mission Contract pack launched with MechJebs PEG Ascent Guidance or Gravity Turn @3.2x scale.

*Could possibly future proof for future BDB updates as well as provide a base for any mods with engines based on real engines.

An optional patch for TAC users with 24h days is avaiable. Consumption rates are divided by 4 as the supplies added by BDB TAC patches are based on 6h days but only works on a new game. 

-Rocket Belle

P.S.

Please direct all issues and questions related to BDB configs to me, Bellabong @ https://github.com/Bellabong/RealFuels-Stock/issues

https://github.com/Bellabong/RealFuels-Stock/releases/tag/v0.1.7.3

[Joco223]

Would it be possible to use this with something like SMURFF so I can use this on RSS scale or Sigma Dimensions with 10x-ish scale? Or is there a config in the mod somewhere for something like this?

[ValiZockt]

1 minute ago, Joco223 said:

Would it be possible to use this with something like SMURFF so I can use this on RSS scale or Sigma Dimensions with 10x-ish scale? Or is there a config in the mod somewhere for something like this?

No, as soon as SMURFF detects RealFuels it gets deactivated, but thats exactly where RO comes in. Its basically the same as RealFuels-Stock just tuned for 10.625x Kerbin sized Planets. 

[Joco223]

1 minute ago, ValiZockt said:

No, as soon as SMURFF detects RealFuels it gets deactivated, but thats exactly where RO comes in. Its basically the same as RealFuels-Stock just tuned for 10.625x Kerbin sized Planets. 

Yeah I know about RO, but I wanted to still use non-RO parts if that makes sense. I guess it isn't possible yet

[ValiZockt]

5 minutes ago, Joco223 said:

Yeah I know about RO, but I wanted to still use non-RO parts if that makes sense. I guess it isn't possible yet

Their may be another option. RF-Stock is tuned for 2.7x-3.2x, but you can change some values in the "RealSettings.cfg" under GameData/RealFuels/RealSettings.cfg to tune it better for 6.4x systems.

Change both (under MFSettings & RFSettings) %useRealisticMass = true to false and lower %tankMassMultiplier and engineMassMultiplier (not tested, but i would start at 0.5 and slowly go lower until it fits your play style), this decreases all engine & tank masses, which increases the performance you'll get out of the same tank/engine at default settings.

[Joco223]

Ok, I'll give it a shot. Thanks.

[TranceaddicT]

2 hours ago, ValiZockt said:

10.625x Kerbin sized Planets

 

 

Whaaaaaaaaaaaaa?

 

[Bellabong]

3 hours ago, TranceaddicT said:

Whaaaaaaaaaaaaa?

 

 

Well yeah,  the Kerbol system is around 1/10 of Solar System with the size of the actual parts and rockets and timescale being 1/4.

[ValiZockt]

New RealFuels-Stock update! Huge thanks to @Bellabong, we now have full configs for Bluedog Design Bureau (up to Development 1.7.0 as of 10/08/2020) and thanks to @TotallyNotHuman for fixing and changing various things & adding support for Kerbal Atomics

New:
* Bluedog Design Bureau (@Bellabong)
* KerbalAtomics (@TotallyNotHuman)

Updated:

Squad:
* Fix Vector (KS-25 Plume)
* New auto-generating RCS configs for unconfigured Parts
* Move RCS Pass to :FOR[RealFuels_StockEngines]
* PR: RCS Rebalance (@TotallyNotHuman)
* PR: Make LV-1(R) and O-10 pressure fed (@TotallyNotHuman)
 
Restock Plus:
* PR: Various Config fixes (Fuel Mixture inconsistencies, new Fuel Configs, Rebalancing) (@TotallyNotHuman)
* PR: RCS Configs (@TotallyNotHuman)

Tantares/TantaresLV:
* PR: Fix Andromeda Engine typo (@Bellabong)

NearFutureSpacecraft:
* PR: Various fixes (Thrust & Mass Balancing) (@TotallyNotHuman)

NearFutureLaunchVehicles:
* PR: RCS LFO Configs (@TotallyNotHuman)
* PR: Fix Hydrolox Config on RD-701/704 (@TotallyNotHuman)

Huge thank you to both @Bellabong & @TotallyNotHuman 

And as usual update is available on Github, SpaceDock & CKAN.

[DJ Reonic]

It seems that I can't get the reDirect tanks to work with Real Fuels. I don't have the option to switch fuel types with either the painted or bare foam variants. I can get the SOCK Shuttle's MMH/NTO tanks to work, however. Also, I have noticed the shuttle's payload bay has lost its fuel cell and all my life support resources are gone. NOTE: I use Kerbalism. At one point, RF had the ability to work with Kerbalism and allowed configurable life support resources.

 

EDIT: I have gotten around the life support and fuel cell issues by placing the appropriate parts in the payload bay, but the tank issue is still there.

Edited August 19, 2020 by DJ Reonic

[Bellabong]

4 hours ago, DJ Reonic said:

It seems that I can't get the reDirect tanks to work with Real Fuels. I don't have the option to switch fuel types with either the painted or bare foam variants. I can get the SOCK Shuttle's MMH/NTO tanks to work, however. Also, I have noticed the shuttle's payload bay has lost its fuel cell and all my life support resources are gone. NOTE: I use Kerbalism. At one point, RF had the ability to work with Kerbalism and allowed configurable life support resources.

 

EDIT: I have gotten around the life support and fuel cell issues by placing the appropriate parts in the payload bay, but the tank issue is still there.

You're right, RF's catch-alls don't catch the LqdHydrogen-Oxidizer tanks from reDirect. This should hold you over until there is an "official" patch. (It's the patch that's used for the BDB LqdHydrogen/Oxidizer tanks but that's only applied to Bluedog parts). If you have more mods that have that kind of resource setup feel free to change the [DIRECT*] to just [*].

@PART[DIRECT*]:HAS[@RESOURCE[LqdHydrogen],@RESOURCE[Oxidizer],!RESOURCE[Ore],!MODULE[ModuleFuelTanks]]:BEFORE[zRealFuels_StockEngines]
{
	MODULE
	{
		name = ModuleFuelTanks
		volume = #$/RESOURCE[Oxidizer]/maxAmount$
		@volume *= 5
		@volume += #$/RESOURCE[LqdHydrogen]/maxAmount$
		type = BalloonCryo
		basemass = -1
	}
	
	!RESOURCE[LqdHydrogen] {}
	!RESOURCE[Oxidizer] {}
}

Kerbalism and fuel cells can be tricky, any "stock" fuel cells (aka moduleresourceconverter) will not run properly in the background. Life support resources are supported but RF doesn't "add" any extra lifesupport resources to any tanks for Kerbalism; if TacLifeSupport is present RF will add some life support resources to any command module that happens to have monopropellant but that's about it.  (From my experience though the prescence of Kerbalism also seems to "proc" TacLifeSupport patches of various mods so if you see any parts that have empty Waste, wasteWater and CarbonDioxide tanks that's actually a TAC patch doing its work since Kerbalism doesn't add any resources apart from Food, Water and Nitrogen.)

Edited August 19, 2020 by Bellabong

[DJ Reonic]

Thanks @Bellabong. I'll apply it. 

Also, just a note for reDIRECT and SOCK. I believe the KJ10 should be a pressure fed engine, but in game it is subject to ullage. With that being said, do I have to add nitrogen or helium to a part that's meant to be a pressurized tank for it to be considered as such?

[ValiZockt]

On 8/19/2020 at 7:51 PM, DJ Reonic said:

It seems that I can't get the reDirect tanks to work with Real Fuels. I don't have the option to switch fuel types with either the painted or bare foam variants. I can get the SOCK Shuttle's MMH/NTO tanks to work

Good catch, I seemed to overlooked that, fixing this asap. Thanks for reporting. (Also thanks @Bellabong for that quick fix!)

On 8/19/2020 at 7:51 PM, DJ Reonic said:

I have noticed the shuttle's payload bay has lost its fuel cell and all my life support resources are gone. NOTE: I use Kerbalism. At one point, RF had the ability to work with Kerbalism and allowed configurable life support resources.

Im not a Kerbalism Player myself, so Im gonna have to make me a bit more familiar with it, but im definitely gonna have a look at this

5 hours ago, DJ Reonic said:

Also, just a note for reDIRECT and SOCK. I believe the KJ10 should be a pressure fed engine, but in game it is subject to ullage

Yes, pressure-fed is often misunderstood, pressure-fed means just that you won't need any turbo pump machinery. Ullage is the concept of having to settle the fuel at the aft bulkhead. That means the pressurant gas could theoretically also settle on the aft bulkhead (microgravity, everything floats everywhere), so when you open the valves you're now pushing the pressurant out, so you'll have to make sure only fuel is sitting on the aft bulkhead. 

So now you're asking, why do I don't need to ullage RCS? RCS utilities "bladder-tanks", they a have a membrane which gets compressed by the pressurant, so the pressurant gas is never touching the fuel in the first place. See this image:

 

5 hours ago, DJ Reonic said:

With that being said, do I have to add nitrogen or helium to a part that's meant to be a pressurized tank for it to be considered as such?

No (this would actually be a cool concept), if a tank is pressurized or not is set in the configs

Edited August 20, 2020 by ValiZockt

[JebIsDeadBaby]

Hi, 

can you explain reasoning behind volume multipliers for tanks integrated into pods? Here's the code:

    name = ModuleFuelTanks
    volume = 0                                      // creates a blank volume for utilization
    @volume += #$/RESOURCE[ElectricCharge]/maxAmount$  // searches for electric charge
    @volume *= 1.7                           // RF has charge at 1000 units per liter (gets multiplied later)
    @volume += #$/RESOURCE[MonoPropellant]/maxAmount$  // searches for previous amount of MonoPropellant to use as volume
    @volume *= 5                                    // multiplies by 5
    type = ServiceModule                            // this is best type to use for RCS tanks, also can hold LS resources
    basemass = -1

Now, this code puts a 135 l service tank into a tiny Mk1 pod (which originally has 50 EC and 10 Monoprop). Ain't it a bit too much? The old value was 50 l, since the old multiplier for EC was 0.0002, which didn't make much sense neither but virtually nullified EC. 

Imagine you have a pod with only 50 EC in stock. What you want to do is to have the same amount of EC available after adding a service tank to hold it with Real Fuels, right? So volume multiplier should be an inverse of utilization. You use 7 for EC, so it should be 1/7 ~= 0.143. 

Anyway, for some crazy reason with the latest RF I get not 135 l but 475 l tank inside Mk1 pod. If you have any idea where these extra 340 l may come from, I'd grateful for suggestions. I'm pretty sure it's not from your configs but I've already checked all the other suspects and found nothing that would tweak resources or volumes before RF.  

EDIT: NVM the last part. I think I'll change that part entirely to 

    name = ModuleFuelTanks
    volume = #$/CrewCapacity$
    @volume *= 50
    type = ServiceModule                            // this is best type to use for RCS tanks, also can hold LS resources
    basemass = -1

so per every crew member in a command module there will be a personal 50 l tank for essentials and that's it. I'll see how that will work for me. 

Edited August 20, 2020 by JebIsDeadBaby

[New Horizons]

Which version of Real Fuels should be used on KSP 1.10.1? RF 1.2.8.5 only has source code in it.

[Zorg]

5 hours ago, ValiZockt said:

So now you're asking, why do I don't need to ullage RCS? RCS utilities "bladder-tanks", they a have a membrane which gets compressed by the pressurant, so the pressurant gas is never touching the fuel in the first place.

Indeed, another example (though much rarer) is the Agena D which had a sump which stored a small amount of propellant which was pressurized independently from the main tanks and that could feed the engine for a restart without ullage. Technically I believe this system was part of the tankage and not strictly part of the engine assembly but in the BDB standalone Engine Ignitor configs we abstract it a bit and make the Agena D engine not need any ullage. 

[dlrk]

Does this work with NearFuturePropulsion and the Methalox variants of the NFLV engines? Sorry, it's a bit ambiguous

[JebIsDeadBaby]

Another question: in Fuel_Conversions.cfg since 5.0.0 there is a new basemass definition for Default and Cryogenic tanks

// set drymass of all RealFuels configured tanks dependent on max volume
@PART[*]:HAS[@MODULE[ModuleFuelTanks]:HAS[#type[Default]]]:AFTER[RealFuels]
{
  @MODULE[ModuleFuelTanks]
  {
    %basemass = volume * 0.00015 
  }
}

@PART[*]:HAS[@MODULE[ModuleFuelTanks]:HAS[#type[Cryogenic]]]:AFTER[RealFuels]
{
  @MODULE[ModuleFuelTanks]
  {
    %basemass = volume * 0.00015 
  }
}

The problem I have with this is that it's 10x higher that original RF setting (which was 0.000016 - one zero more). Is this intentional? If yes, why service tanks and fuselages are not corrected? 

[ValiZockt]

On 8/20/2020 at 10:48 PM, JebIsDeadBaby said:

Now, this code puts a 135 l service tank into a tiny Mk1 pod (which originally has 50 EC and 10 Monoprop). Ain't it a bit too much? The old value was 50 l, since the old multiplier for EC was 0.0002, which didn't make much sense neither but virtually nullified EC. 

Imagine you have a pod with only 50 EC in stock. What you want to do is to have the same amount of EC available after adding a service tank to hold it with Real Fuels, right? So volume multiplier should be an inverse of utilization. You use 7 for EC, so it should be 1/7 ~= 0.143. 

 Balancing Command Pods was always a bit of a rollercoaster, lol. But agreed, these really sound too high, I don't even know anymore on how I got to this 1.7 multiplier. Seaching the changes you did below, how does it play with it? Could be a reasonable change, the only downside of this would that bigger capsules with more storage space than Kerbal space would get nullified through this. 

 

On 8/20/2020 at 10:48 PM, JebIsDeadBaby said:

Anyway, for some crazy reason with the latest RF I get not 135 l but 475 l tank inside Mk1 pod. If you have any idea where these extra 340 l may come from, I'd grateful for suggestions. I'm pretty sure it's not from your configs but I've already checked all the other suspects and found nothing that would tweak resources or volumes before RF. 

Yeah, that's a place you would have to look (or post them in here) in your MMConfigCache & Log.

 

On 8/20/2020 at 10:50 PM, New Horizons said:

Which version of Real Fuels should be used on KSP 1.10.1? RF 1.2.8.5 only has source code in it.

Hmm, that sounds like you clicked on the source download button instead of the RealFuels zip, but yeah. 12.8.5 is the way to go. 

 

1 hour ago, JebIsDeadBaby said:

Another question: in Fuel_Conversions.cfg since 5.0.0 there is a new basemass definition for Default and Cryogenic tanks

// set drymass of all RealFuels configured tanks dependent on max volume
@PART[*]:HAS[@MODULE[ModuleFuelTanks]:HAS[#type[Default]]]:AFTER[RealFuels]
{
  @MODULE[ModuleFuelTanks]
  {
    %basemass = volume * 0.00015 
  }
}

@PART[*]:HAS[@MODULE[ModuleFuelTanks]:HAS[#type[Cryogenic]]]:AFTER[RealFuels]
{
  @MODULE[ModuleFuelTanks]
  {
    %basemass = volume * 0.00015 
  }
}

The problem I have with this is that it's 10x higher that original RF setting (which was 0.000016 - one zero more). Is this intentional? If yes, why service tanks and fuselages are not corrected? 

Yes, that was intentional, before that you could easily get 2-3x times the Delta-V (m/s) out of tanks/rocket as you would normally. (Which made sense before as RF-Stock was more thought for 6.4x, which is a bit deprecated by now, as the new 2.7x is taking over). Service & Fuselage Tanks aren't effected as their to small to really get a big effect out of it. 

[JebIsDeadBaby]

7 hours ago, ValiZockt said:

Seaching the changes you did below, how does it play with it? 

For Mk1 50 l makes sense visually (could be even lower, like 30 l) and in the early game works perfectly in terms of difficulty. I play with Kerbalism however, so I get lower EC consumption by antennas, I use EC utilization of 4 though, so I can fit less EC to begin with. This way I get a pod capable of a few orbits. Once you upgrade VAB and get service tanks, pod tanks are not a concern anymore. 

Pod patches need to be revised anyway as now they look for pods with either monopropellant or LF. New KV pods that were just added with Restock+ have only EC, so they don't get patched at all. 

7 hours ago, ValiZockt said:

Yes, that was intentional, before that you could easily get 2-3x times the Delta-V (m/s) out of tanks/rocket as you would normally. (Which made sense before as RF-Stock was more thought for 6.4x, which is a bit deprecated by now, as the new 2.7x is taking over). Service & Fuselage Tanks aren't effected as their to small to really get a big effect out of it.

Well, heavier tanks are brutal. Mk1 into orbit within 18 t limit is barely possible, and Stayputnik to the SOI edge is straight out impossible. As for service and fuselage tanks I don't get it. They come in similar sizes as default ones. IIRC a 500 l default tank now has a drymass of ~85 kg, while 500 l service tank of ~18 kg. Doesn't make sense as service and fuselage tanks are supposed to be around 3 times heavier. Now they allow to cheat your way out of heavy default tanks. 

[ValiZockt]

4 hours ago, JebIsDeadBaby said:

Well, heavier tanks are brutal. Mk1 into orbit within 18 t limit is barely possible, and Stayputnik to the SOI edge is straight out impossible.

I did some comparison between Stock (no RealFuels) and  with RealFuels. I just slapped couple of tanks together, so don't look too closely at this rocket. Anyways these were my results.

First stage is a LV-T45 Swivel (Eth75/LOx) with three FL-T800 fuel tanks, upper stage consists of a LV-909 Terrier (Ae50/NTO) and a FL-T400 tank. While yes, im over the 18t limit, it's the same as in Stock. In fact, this rocket would actually be a bit heavier as in stock (only by a small margin, so think we can say these weight about the same).

However if switch out the Eth75/LOx to Kerolox and the Ae50/NTO to Hydrolox, i'm down to 18t with more Delta-V (m/s)

 

[JebIsDeadBaby]

As I said - barely possible with a simplest rocket. This Real Fuels example of yours: the rocket has only 400 m/s excess of Delta-V (I assume JSNQ of course) and just 1.12 TWR on launch. I'm willing to bet it will burn these extra 400 m/s just trying to get off the ground. Even if it gets to the orbit it probably won't be able to return. Add Kerbalism and Deadly Reentry to the mix and you're stuck. I don't want to argue about exact values, just want to point out that in a career mode with some realism mods, this can lead to being unable to progress in the early game. Although I understand you can't cater to all possible mod combinations. 

Still, service and fuselage tanks should be adjusted as well. Right now there is no point in using default tanks.

[ValiZockt]

35 minutes ago, JebIsDeadBaby said:

As I said - barely possible with a simplest rocket. This Real Fuels example of yours: the rocket has only 400 m/s excess of Delta-V (I assume JSNQ of course) and just 1.12 TWR on launch. I'm willing to bet it will burn these extra 400 m/s just trying to get off the ground. Even if it gets to the orbit it probably won't be able to return. Add Kerbalism and Deadly Reentry to the mix and you're stuck. I don't want to argue about exact values, just want to point out that in a career mode with some realism mods, this can lead to being unable to progress in the early game. Although I understand you can't cater to all possible mod combinations. 

Still, service and fuselage tanks should be adjusted as well. Right now there is no point in using default tanks.

I’ll have to admit, that small rockets are a bit underpowered and some big rockets are to overpowered. I’ll see what I can do. Same for the fuselage & Service Tanks, didn’t thought that these can be used to bypass the higher drymass. Thanks for reporting that all. 

[New Horizons]

The problem is, Real Fuels v12.8.5 for KSP 1.8.* is a pre-release still and has no other data than source code.

https://github.com/NathanKell/ModularFuelSystem/releases