Mod Authors, Need review of various bulkheadProfiles

[linuxgurugamer]

I'm working on updating Janitor's Closet, and part of that includes fixing the filter window to filter the sizes properly.

Over the past 10 years or so, in addition to the bulkheadProfiles that Squad uses, various authors have implemented their own bulkhead profiles.

I've just finished installing and testing almost every single part mod that I can find in CKAN.  A royal pain, the game takes over 25 minutes to load and uses more than 25 gig of memory.

I've gleaned the following bulkhead profiles from all these parts.  Left side is the profile as it is in the parts files, right side is how I'm currently going to be displaying them in the filter window.  I'd appreciate it if  you would review it, and for those profiles that you know,  let me know of any changes required to the display side.  If you know of any which I've missed, please let me know as well

      aethon = Aethon
        hextruss = Hextruss
        hx = Hx
        mk1rect = Mk1 Rect
        mk1square = Mk1 Square
        mk2 = Mk-2
        mk25 = Mk-25
        mk3 = Mk-3
        mk4 = Mk-4
        octo3 = Octo-3
        octotruss = Octotruss
        size0 = Size 0 (0.625m)
        size0.5 = Size-0.5
        size00 = Size-00
        size000 = Size-000
        size0p5 = Size0p5  
        size0p5 size0 = size0p5 size0
        size1 = Size 1 (1.25m)
        size1.5 = Size-1.5
        size15 = Size-15
        size1p2 = Size1p2  
        size1p5 = Size 1.5 (1.875m)
        size2 = Size 2 (2.5m)
        size2p5 = Size2p5  
        size2s = Size2 S
        size3 = Size 3 (3.75m)
        size4 = Size 4 (5m)
        size4p5 = Size4p5  
        size5 = Size 5 (7.5m)
        size6 = Size 6 (11.25m)
        size7 = Size 7 (16.875m)
        size8 = Size 8 (23.3125m)
        spinaltruss = Spinaltruss
        srf = Srf
        wedge = Wedge

 

[Nertea]

Octo-Truss, Hex-Truss, Spinal Truss are preferred for those entries.

[linuxgurugamer]

1 hour ago, Nertea said:

Spinal Truss

Two words, or with a dash like the others?

[Nertea]

Two words, I looked at how i'd defined it in my localization. 

[JadeOfMaar]

Quote

hx = Hx
mk2 = Mk-2
mk25 = Mk-25
mk3 = Mk-3
mk4 = Mk-4

 

What I would strongly argue over:

• HX should be in all caps.
• I'd rather Mk2, Mk3 and Mk4 not have a dash in them, just as Mk1 doesn't.
• I assume Mk25 is the Mk2.5 spaceplane body mod. If that's the case, it would be much better off displayed as "Mk2.5"

[linuxgurugamer]

8 minutes ago, JadeOfMaar said:

HX should be in all caps.

Done

8 minutes ago, JadeOfMaar said:

I assume Mk25 is the Mk2.5 spaceplane body mod. If that's the case, it would be much better off displayed as "Mk2.5"

Done

8 minutes ago, JadeOfMaar said:

I'd rather Mk2, Mk3 and Mk4 not have a dash in them, just as Mk1 doesn't.

I was actually thinking of putting a dash into the mk1, The dash actually came from an automated function which generated a "readable" name from the internal name.  I've made the change, but would be interested in hearing from others about this

[blowfish]

HX could theoretically be split into 4 sizes, I don't know how much value there is there given the smallish number of HX parts that exist

[linuxgurugamer]

Just now, blowfish said:

HX could theoretically be split into 4 sizes, I don't know how much value there is there given the smallish number of HX parts that exist

That may be, but there is only "hx" listed in the bulkheadProfiles

[JadeOfMaar]

22 minutes ago, blowfish said:

HX could theoretically be split into 4 sizes, I don't know how much value there is there given the smallish number of HX parts that exist

I could see value in having the HX parts have their own bulkheadprofiles...But I'd rather sort them via stock subcategories (config, left) than via the built-in sort by bulkheads tab. (Right) is irrelevant... it's a CCK mod tab. Can't have sub-tabs on those.

Also, I'm surprised B9 Aero's HL, S2 and S2W didn't show up in Linux's initial list.

[OrdinaryKerman]

I'm not a part modder, but since the Squad circular sizes have their sizes in meters shown, here are the diameters of some of the other circular sizes (mostly taken from BDB):

        size00 = Size 00 (0.3125m)
        size000 = Size 000 (0.125m)
        size0p5 = Size 0.5 (0.9375m)
        size1p2 = Size1p2  (1.5m)
        size2p5 = Size 2.5 (3.125m) 

Am I intruding?

[TBenz]

8 hours ago, linuxgurugamer said:

size0p5 size0 = size0p5 size0

That looks like a typo of "size0p5, size0". I also imagine all the #p#'s stand for #.#. I'll also throw my support behind this:

5 minutes ago, OrdinaryKerman said:

I'm not a part modder, but since the Squad circular sizes have their sizes in meters shown, here are the diameters of some of the other circular sizes (mostly taken from BDB):

        size00 = Size 00 (0.3125m)
        size000 = Size 000 (0.125m)
        size0p5 = Size 0.5 (0.9375m)
        size1p2 = Size1p2  (1.5m)
        size2p5 = Size 2.5 (3.125m) 

Am I intruding?

Although @CobaltWolfcould probably best answer how the BDB sizes should be named. 

[OrdinaryKerman]

 

6 minutes ago, TBenz said:

Although @CobaltWolfcould probably best answer how the BDB sizes should be named. 

I agree, sorry for interrupting

[OrdinaryKerman]

3 hours ago, TBenz said:

Although @CobaltWolfcould probably best answer how the BDB sizes should be named. 

The physical diameters aren't exclusive to BDB, though BDB is the only one that defines them as bulkheadProfiles

[PocketBrotector]

18 hours ago, linuxgurugamer said:

        size4p5 = Size4p5  
        size6 = Size 6 (11.25m)
        size7 = Size 7 (16.875m)
        size8 = Size 8 (23.3125m)

 

Another non-author here but I have a little familiarity with these from using mods that use these profiles.

• size4p5 is 5.625m, used for BDB's Saturn parts.
• size6 is 10m, used in SpaceY Expanded and Behemoth Aerospace
• Hypothetically, size7 and size8 would be 15m and 20m, respectively, if they continue the same size progression. However, I'm not personally aware of any part mods that use those sizes. Real-Scale Sea Dragon uses size8 for its 23m parts.

[Poodmund]

Those numbers above seem whack, Size Profile is generally considered as ( Size Profile * 1.25 ) = Stack Diameter (m) ... but is a little wonky for Size 0 and below as these size names are not numbers per se.

Size Profile	Diameter Rel. to Size 1	Diameter (m)
000	12.5%	0.15625
00	25.0%	0.3125
0	50.0%	0.625
0p5	75.0%	0.9375
1	100.0%	1.25
1p2	120.0%	1.5
1p5	150.0%	1.875
2	200.0%	2.5
2p5	250.0%	3.125
3	300.0%	3.75
3p5	350.0%	4.375
4	400.0%	5
4p5	450.0%	5.625
5	500.0%	6.25
5p5	550.0%	6.875
6	600.0%	7.5
6p5	650.0%	8.125
7	700.0%	8.75
7p5	750.0%	9.375
8	800.0%	10
8p5	850.0%	10.625
9	900.0%	11.25
9p5	950.0%	11.875
10	1000.0%	12.5
10p5	1050.0%	13.125
11	1100.0%	13.75
11p5	1150.0%	14.375
12	1200.0%	15

Edited February 6, 2021 by Poodmund

[linuxgurugamer]

11 hours ago, OrdinaryKerman said:

Am I intruding

Not at all, thank you.

1 hour ago, Poodmund said:

Those numbers above seem whack, Size Profile is generally considered as ( Size Profile * 1.25 ) = Stack Diameter (m) ... but is a little wonky for Size 0 and below as these size names are not numbers per se

That will very helpful, thank you.

[PocketBrotector]

2 hours ago, Poodmund said:

Those numbers above seem whack, Size Profile is generally considered as ( Size Profile * 1.25 ) = Stack Diameter (m) ... but is a little wonky for Size 0 and below as these size names are not numbers per se.

I've never seen a 6.25m or 8.75m part. This isn't the first time the community's had this discussion...

On 4/3/2017 at 3:25 PM, Kerbas_ad_astra said:

When I defined the bulkhead profiles for Filter Extension (compact list here), I chose to make the boundaries for the size categories a geometric progression rather than arithmetic.  Consider the 23m Sea Dragon.  Under your system, that would be classified as a size 18 (22.5 m).  Now suppose that I want to launch even bigger payloads than the Sea Dragon could carry.  It wouldn't make sense to go to the trouble of development, testing, and manufacturing a rocket that's only 1.25 m larger (size 19, 23.75 m), because that would only offer a small percentage improvement in performance.  (Obviously, we don't need to do 'real engineering' to make parts in KSP, but there's still non-trivial effort in making new models and such.)  It's only economical to develop a new line of parts if they are substantially larger (or otherwise more capable) than parts already on the market, and an arithmetic progression just runs out of steam.

On the other hand, if each new part size is made 33% or 50% bigger than the size before it, then each step is meaningful, without being negligible or excessive.  This is why I like 1.875m parts, like HGR and MOLE and the new DLC, and also why I had the sizes skip from 5 to 7.5 to 10 meters.  (Obviously, nobody's forcing parts to only be made in those sizes.  I guess it's to their creator's discretion as to whether they'd rather 'round up' or 'round down' in their bulkheadProfiles.)

Of course, the absolute size also matters -- we can follow the geometric scale backwards to negative infinity (size000, size0000...), but pretty soon parts get too small to be viable in the game and the differences between sizes start to get negligible, so I'm okay with skipping the 0.46875 m "size 00p5", and I'd also be okay with skipping 0.9375 m / size0p5 and 1.5 m / size1p2, but I see that parts already exist in those sizes and use those bulkheadProfiles.  (I'll add them to my 'to-do' list for Filter Extension.)

I've always liked this as it describes pretty well the progression that the mod community actually uses (with a few exceptions in replica-oriented mods like BDB); including those community sizes that were "made canon" by MH. Obviously that means the "sizeX" codes are not mathematically consistent, but that's because of their historical legacy, dating all the way back to when KSP had only a couple of part diameters.

Size	Diam    Increase	
00	0.3125		
0	0.6250	0.3125	100%
0p5	0.9375	0.3125	50%
1	1.2500	0.3125	33%
1p5	1.8750	0.6250	50%
2	2.5000	0.6250	33%
3	3.7500	1.2500	50%
4	5.0000	1.2500	33%
5	7.5000	2.5000	50%
6	10.0000	2.5000	33%

 

Edited February 6, 2021 by PocketBrotector

[Poodmund]

The problem is with that is that the references cited were all from one person who doesn't tend to make many parts mods and the jump in % increase falls down between Size 1, Size 1p5 and Size 2.

[PocketBrotector]

32 minutes ago, Poodmund said:

The problem is with that is that the references cited were all from one person who doesn't tend to make many parts mods and the jump in % increase falls down between Size 1, Size 1p5 and Size 2.

SpaceY and NFLV both use this size-naming scheme (size5 for 7.5m and size6 for 10m). And those links lead to discussions where community input was solicited and provided by multiple parties.

46 minutes ago, PocketBrotector said:

Obviously that means the "sizeX" codes are not mathematically consistent, but that's because of their historical legacy, dating all the way back to when KSP had only a couple of part diameters.

To be more specific... the increase progression is consistent between size1, size1p5, and size2, but the names are not because size1p5 was invented by the community after the fact to interpolate between size1 and size2. I think this happened with HGR, which was later maintained by @Kerbas_ad_astra, who described the sizing system above.

Edited February 6, 2021 by PocketBrotector

[linuxgurugamer]

19 hours ago, JadeOfMaar said:

Also, I'm surprised B9 Aero's HL, S2 and S2W didn't show up in Linux's initial list.

This concerned me, so I just manually scanned all the B9 folders (ignoring case):

• HL
• S2
• S2W

None of them show up in any bulkheadProfiles line.  So I examined some of the files and found that:

S2W is listed as a size2, HL I found were listed as (among others) size2, mk3.  I stopped at this point, because further investigation is a waste of time.  Whatever B9 names the parts, the internal bulkheadProfiles seems to be using the stock sizes

 

[linuxgurugamer]

On 2/5/2021 at 3:42 PM, Nertea said:

Octo-Truss, Hex-Truss, Spinal Truss are preferred for those entries.

Fixed.

Regarding the title including the size as is done with stock, there does seem to be some disagreement as to what size some of the larger ones are.  I will fix the following (since I made a math mistake) as well as adding descriptions to those which make sense:

size0.5 = Size-0.5 (0.9375m)
size00 = Size-00 (0.3125m)
size000 = Size-000 (0.15625m)
size0p5 = Size0p5 (0.9375m)
size1p2 = Size1p2 (1.5m)
size2p5 = Size2p5  (3.125m)
size4p5 = Size4p5 (5.625m)
size5 = Size 5 (6.25m)
size6 = Size 6 (7.5m)
size7 = Size 7 (8.75m)
size8 = Size 8 (10m)

All those other sizes listed in @Poodmund's post just weren't found in the mods that I checked.  I'd be happy to check any mods which do have oddball bulkheadProfiles which I may have missed, but I'm not going to add a lot of unused sizes just to fill it out.

Also, note that size0.5 and size0p5, while probably the same size, are actually in two different mods, since this is using the bulkheadProfiles, I have to keep them both

The size0.5 is used by one mod with 4 parts (Vostok Continued, by @IronCretin).  I've messaged the author who is still active, but I'm considering including a simple MM patch to change size0.5 to size0p5

If someone were to write it for me before I get around to it, would be a bit helpful

Edited February 7, 2021 by linuxgurugamer

[linuxgurugamer]

On 2/5/2021 at 11:50 PM, TBenz said:

That looks like a typo of "size0p5, size0"

It's actually a mistake in a part file, I've notified the mod author about it.

Edited February 7, 2021 by linuxgurugamer

[TBenz]

1 hour ago, linuxgurugamer said:

It's actually a mistake in a part file, I've notified the mod author about it.

Yeah, that's what I meant, a typo in the part files. I actually went ahead a created a pull request to fix it in BDB the other day, and it's already been merged, so it should be fixed in the next release.

Edited February 7, 2021 by TBenz