Was a first person in space actually a women (that flown before Gagarin)

[StrandedonEarth]

Going off on a tangent, there is this interesting podcast about the Mercury 13 women who passed the same tests as the Mercury 7, but were ignored by NASA.

https://www.theguardian.com/science/audio/2019/jul/19/mercury-13-the-forgotten-women-of-the-space-race-science-weekly-podcast

[DDE]

1 hour ago, StrandedonEarth said:

the same tests as the Mercury 7

But, importantly, they were just the medical tests, and the whole affair had no NASA backing. They were utterly unsolicited volunteers.

Let's avoid bringing known Culture War bait onto this forum, please.

[StrandedonEarth]

3 hours ago, DDE said:

But, importantly, they were just the medical tests, and the whole affair had no NASA backing. They were utterly unsolicited volunteers.

Let's avoid bringing known Culture War bait onto this forum, please.

My apologies, that was not my intention. I merely wished to share something I had only recently heard about. Yes, I was short on details, but my time was limited and people are welcome to listen to the podcast and/or do their own research if they want to know more. 

[55delta]

My first thought was to ask if conspiracy theorists were taking story elements from the Metal Gear Solid games seriously, because that's the only other place I've heard of it. But I'm not sure if there's enough points in common. Spoilers for Metal Gear Solid 3: Snake Eater. Heaven help anyone who take Hideo Kojina's writing as fact.

 

Spoiler

Borrowing from a wiki entry on The Boss: 

The Mercury Project

Later on, The Boss was chosen for participation in the Mercury Project and met for the first time Strangelove, who was assigned to Mercury as a key staff member. She was sent to space on a mission to acquire data on how well the human body could cope in such conditions, but during which radiation was an inevitability. She unofficially became the first American in space, and seeing the Earth from above sparked her dream of uniting the world as one.

Unfortunately, as she returned to Earth from her flight on April 12, 1961, the addition of a "window" caused her re-entry capsule to veer off course and crash land in the ocean, resulting in The Boss being thrown from the capsule and severely burned by both the cosmic radiation, and the heat of re-entry. Miraculously, The Boss did survive, but she was hospitalized as a result, and she and Strangelove never saw each other again. The injuries sent The Boss into another deep coma for six months. The military covered up the accident by claiming that The Boss took part in the CIA's botched Bay of Pigs Invasion in Cuba. The Boss | Metal Gear Wiki | Fandom

But the only other considerations I would add is that the game is set in the Soviet Union, and that the character is later required to sacrifice herself and her reputation in an effort to stop potential nuclear war.

 

[Ziggy Kerman]

On 3/11/2021 at 10:27 PM, kerbiloid said:

To get off course by 500 km after first 500 km of distance, the rocket should have a lot of excessive delta-V.

No R-7 have ever fallen in China.

The  most efficient path into orbit from Baikonur is over China (Xinjiang), but they fly NE to make sure nothing drops over Mongolia or China, at first probably to keep their stuff under wrap, then it was because all their crap was at that inclination.

Edited March 13, 2021 by Ziggy Kerman

[wumpus]

On 3/11/2021 at 11:27 PM, kerbiloid said:

To get off course by 500 km after first 500 km of distance, the rocket should have a lot of excessive delta-V.

No R-7 have ever fallen in China.

Why did they build there if they didn't intend to launch over China?  Or did Chinese relations improve between construction and first test launch?  Couldn't they get less inclination restrictions by building where they wouldn't have re-route rockets?

On 3/12/2021 at 6:43 AM, SunlitZelkova said:

Yuri Gagarin was the first human being in space.

There are a few problems with the "someone else was the first in space and they covered it up" conspiracy theory-

Robert Heinlein published a book called "Expanded Universe" around 1980.  It had a bunch of collected stories, some interesting predictions, and a lot of RAH pontificating.  It also mentioned that he was told by a Soviet cadet that they had put a "man in orbit", and the same day all Pravda (and any other) newspapers were removed from the shelves (this doesn't seem to match any historical account of the Ivan Ivanovich flights, but perhaps something was vetoed in that local area).  Heinlein died in 1987, well before the information you list was available in the West.  No mentions about the "lost cosmonaut" being a woman.

[Ziggy Kerman]

2 minutes ago, wumpus said:

Why did they build there if they didn't intend to launch over China?  Or did Chinese relations improve between construction and first test launch?  Couldn't they get less inclination restrictions by building where they wouldn't have re-route rockets?

It was build there so the US wouldn't find it but they did, this is from a U-2 Spy Plane . It was also there because, the Steppe is empty and they could just, make bigger stuff without killing people.

[kerbiloid]

1 hour ago, wumpus said:

Why did they build there if they didn't intend to launch over China? 

Where "there"? It's built in Kazakhstan, deep inside the Soviet territory, far away from the Chinese border.

Alternatives were at the North and on Caucasus. The latter was rejected exactly because one beacon station would be placed on Chinese territory.

[mrfox]

3 hours ago, wumpus said:

Why did they build there if they didn't intend to launch over China?  Or did Chinese relations improve between construction and first test launch?  Couldn't they get less inclination restrictions by building where they wouldn't have re-route rockets?

Robert Heinlein published a book called "Expanded Universe" around 1980.  It had a bunch of collected stories, some interesting predictions, and a lot of RAH pontificating.  It also mentioned that he was told by a Soviet cadet that they had put a "man in orbit", and the same day all Pravda (and any other) newspapers were removed from the shelves (this doesn't seem to match any historical account of the Ivan Ivanovich flights, but perhaps something was vetoed in that local area).  Heinlein died in 1987, well before the information you list was available in the West.  No mentions about the "lost cosmonaut" being a woman.

Play around with this

https://observablehq.com/@jake-low/satellite-ground-track-visualizer

Placing the launch site anywhere else within the USSR would have require orbits of even higher inclinations if the constraint of no overflight over china in the initial orbit is observed.

 

[SunlitZelkova]

3 hours ago, wumpus said:

Why did they build there if they didn't intend to launch over China?  Or did Chinese relations improve between construction and first test launch?  Couldn't they get less inclination restrictions by building where they wouldn't have re-route rockets?

Robert Heinlein published a book called "Expanded Universe" around 1980.  It had a bunch of collected stories, some interesting predictions, and a lot of RAH pontificating.  It also mentioned that he was told by a Soviet cadet that they had put a "man in orbit", and the same day all Pravda (and any other) newspapers were removed from the shelves (this doesn't seem to match any historical account of the Ivan Ivanovich flights, but perhaps something was vetoed in that local area).  Heinlein died in 1987, well before the information you list was available in the West.  No mentions about the "lost cosmonaut" being a woman.

http://www.russianspaceweb.com/baikonur_origin.html this website gives a good overview of why Baikonur was selected. Contrary to "wanting to launch over China" for whatever reason, launching over foreign countries and overflying population centers were the things they wanted to avoid while picking a launch site.

The selection of Baikonur was entirely related to the R-7 missile program, and the process began long before launching things and people into space was on anyone's (except Korolev and a small number of other engineers') minds.

About Heinlein-

That story is reprinted from an article he wrote shortly after the event occurred on May 15th, 1960. The same day as the Korabl-Sputnik 1 launch, which carried a mannequin and voice recordings of a human voice to test the radio. The newspapers were likely a pure coincidence, as there seems to be no account of such a thing happening somewhere else. In any case, the removal of them was not related to the space program as is shown by various declassified documents.

But most important of all, there are numerous declassified documents that disprove any accusation that someone went into orbit before Gagarin. We should trust those much more than a few young soldiers that might have just wanted to mess with a foreign tourist.

To use an analogy to point out how bad of an idea it is to rely purely on people's word, seriously considering the possibility that Gagarin was not first in space because some soldiers said that they put a man into orbit earlier is like seriously considering the possibility that the Moon landing was faked because some low-level employee from Rocketdyne said they might have been... oh wait.

I would like to make it clear that if a professional historian with credentials found actual documents that pointed to a coverup, then by all means consider that possibility, but as "logical" as the idea sounds- the Soviets did cover a lot of stuff up- there is no evidence for it, and there is lots of evidence against it, and therefore still considering the idea, despite all of that, is conspiracy theorist thinking.

[magnemoe]

1 hour ago, SunlitZelkova said:

http://www.russianspaceweb.com/baikonur_origin.html this website gives a good overview of why Baikonur was selected. Contrary to "wanting to launch over China" for whatever reason, launching over foreign countries and overflying population centers were the things they wanted to avoid while picking a launch site.

The selection of Baikonur was entirely related to the R-7 missile program, and the process began long before launching things and people into space was on anyone's (except Korolev and a small number of other engineers') minds.

About Heinlein-

That story is reprinted from an article he wrote shortly after the event occurred on May 15th, 1960. The same day as the Korabl-Sputnik 1 launch, which carried a mannequin and voice recordings of a human voice to test the radio. The newspapers were likely a pure coincidence, as there seems to be no account of such a thing happening somewhere else. In any case, the removal of them was not related to the space program as is shown by various declassified documents.

But most important of all, there are numerous declassified documents that disprove any accusation that someone went into orbit before Gagarin. We should trust those much more than a few young soldiers that might have just wanted to mess with a foreign tourist.

To use an analogy to point out how bad of an idea it is to rely purely on people's word, seriously considering the possibility that Gagarin was not first in space because some soldiers said that they put a man into orbit earlier is like seriously considering the possibility that the Moon landing was faked because some low-level employee from Rocketdyne said they might have been... oh wait.

I would like to make it clear that if a professional historian with credentials found actual documents that pointed to a coverup, then by all means consider that possibility, but as "logical" as the idea sounds- the Soviets did cover a lot of stuff up- there is no evidence for it, and there is lots of evidence against it, and therefore still considering the idea, despite all of that, is conspiracy theorist thinking.

Agree, now back before the Soviet collapse it was semi plausible. Afterward why deny it and it probably leak anyway. 
The idea that they wanted to send an tape recording to space or simpler just relay the message sent to satellite make perfect sense as they wanted to talk to the cosmonaut. 
One of the things you want to test here is distress calls from some is serious problems. Nominal you can send as data or morse. 
70 RPM jaw on stabilizing burn, manual override does not work, is something you will get in voice and want to understand
 

[Ethan13]

2 hours ago, SunlitZelkova said:

http://www.russianspaceweb.com/baikonur_origin.html this website gives a good overview of why Baikonur was selected. Contrary to "wanting to launch over China" for whatever reason, launching over foreign countries and overflying population centers were the things they wanted to avoid while picking a launch site.

The selection of Baikonur was entirely related to the R-7 missile program, and the process began long before launching things and people into space was on anyone's (except Korolev and a small number of other engineers') minds.

About Heinlein-

That story is reprinted from an article he wrote shortly after the event occurred on May 15th, 1960. The same day as the Korabl-Sputnik 1 launch, which carried a mannequin and voice recordings of a human voice to test the radio. The newspapers were likely a pure coincidence, as there seems to be no account of such a thing happening somewhere else. In any case, the removal of them was not related to the space program as is shown by various declassified documents.

But most important of all, there are numerous declassified documents that disprove any accusation that someone went into orbit before Gagarin. We should trust those much more than a few young soldiers that might have just wanted to mess with a foreign tourist.

To use an analogy to point out how bad of an idea it is to rely purely on people's word, seriously considering the possibility that Gagarin was not first in space because some soldiers said that they put a man into orbit earlier is like seriously considering the possibility that the Moon landing was faked because some low-level employee from Rocketdyne said they might have been... oh wait.

I would like to make it clear that if a professional historian with credentials found actual documents that pointed to a coverup, then by all means consider that possibility, but as "logical" as the idea sounds- the Soviets did cover a lot of stuff up- there is no evidence for it, and there is lots of evidence against it, and therefore still considering the idea, despite all of that, is conspiracy theorist thinking.

Perhaps they were talking about the astronaut dogs of 1960? (Yes, I remember they didn't fly to the moon). And then something went wrong. Wrong conclusions can be drawn from any conversation.

[DDE]

9 hours ago, SunlitZelkova said:

But most important of all, there are numerous declassified documents

The mantra of anyone unwilling to let this pesky fact get into the way of their claims is that the documents have long since been purged and doctored. Everyone does it, from the people who don't find Stalin's bodycount to be high enough, to those who claim the Secret Protocol to the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact is a CIA falsification.

Lack of evidence of a conspiracy is evidence of a conspiracy, of course. /s

[kerbiloid]

It's like the belief in the First Sputnik unexpected launch, when this was done in accordance of commitments undertaken in honour of International Geophysical Year, and widely known and expected.

https://www.thespacereview.com/article/1457/1

(USSR, USA, and China stated that they are going to launch the first sat, but China later rejected, USA skipped the deadline, and USSR had a free rocket due to continuing warhead test failures).

I.e. expected by everybody but random people.

[DDE]

8 hours ago, kerbiloid said:

I.e. expected by everybody but random people.

I've seen way too many act people surprised when faced with utterly predictable things... often, bias is to blame.

Especially when the standard cliche of propaganda is that the adversary is somehow simultaneously pathetic and a universal threat.

[Meecrob]

3 hours ago, DDE said:

 somehow simultaneously pathetic and a universal threat.

THIS!!!

These cosmonaut conspiracies reek of "ok, the Soviets got to space first, but they screwed up, so we're even"

Edited March 16, 2021 by Meecrob

[SunlitZelkova]

21 hours ago, Ethan13 said:

Perhaps they were talking about the astronaut dogs of 1960? (Yes, I remember they didn't fly to the moon). And then something went wrong. Wrong conclusions can be drawn from any conversation.

I don't think so. The cadets said it was on that day (when the conversation took place) which was May 15th, 1960. No dog launches took place then.

Also compared to human spaceflights which were announced as they were underway, dogs weren't revealed until after landing if I remember correctly. There were dogs that died that were covered up, but they are known now as the documents about them have been declassified.

Keep in mind though that the "coverup" only went so far as not letting info leak to outsiders. It's not like low level employees at OKB-1 were literally being told "we never sent those dogs into space", or that newspapers were removed off the shelves en masse and regular civilians were being told "that thing you read about never happened". It was simply a secret (and it is no longer a secret).

Rather than mistranslation, I think the soldiers were just messing with him or they themselves were to dumb to interpret the news correctly.

Reading more about Korabl-Sputnik 1 (the May 15th test flight) the Soviets actually had a surprisingly detailed announcement of the flight, mentioning it was only an uncrewed test flight with no pilot on board.

[paul_c]

The thing which seals it as a hoax for me, is that the spoken Russian (as well as being poorly phrased, like someone learning Russian as a second language).........has an Italian accent to it! By sheer chance, their sister was learning Russian.......

Sure, they intercepted a few transmissions, got a bit of recognition for that...but then it all went a bit quiet, so they decided to start making stuff up instead of just fading back into insignificance. A bit of fun that went too far.

[Ziggy Kerman]

On 3/15/2021 at 3:26 PM, SunlitZelkova said:

Korabl-Sputnik 1 launch, which carried a mannequin and voice recordings of a human voice to test the radio.

Wasn't the recording a Borscht recipe or something like that?

On 3/15/2021 at 2:10 PM, mrfox said:

Play around with this

https://observablehq.com/@jake-low/satellite-ground-track-visualizer

That's pretty good, it can make a SSO too.

[mrfox]

3 hours ago, Ziggy Kerman said:

Wasn't the recording a Borscht recipe or something like that?

They must’ve sent up the wrong core

 

[Ziggy Kerman]

10 hours ago, mrfox said:

They must’ve sent up the wrong core

 

Shall I use this recipe for making a actual cake?

[SunlitZelkova]

20 hours ago, Ziggy Kerman said:

Wasn't the recording a Borscht recipe or something like that?

That's pretty good, it can make a SSO too.

The English info I have just says "voice communications recordings".

[DDE]

On 3/17/2021 at 3:44 AM, Ziggy Kerman said:

Wasn't the recording a Borscht recipe or something like that?

Apparently they were more relevant - relevant enough to give the CIA a serious scare when the Zonds began broadcasting the recordings during their Lunar flybys.

[Nuke]

are we retconning history again, winston?  or do we need to visit room 101 again?

[kerbiloid]

"It's full of starrrz!"

Edited March 18, 2021 by kerbiloid