The Skyhawk Science System - a new, realistic tech tree for KSP, now including Kerbalism support - [v1.1.1 - "For Science!" 8/11/22)]

[Cheesecake]

On 3/28/2024 at 12:01 AM, Shadow Wolf TJC said:

Personally, and no offense, but I get the feeling that it sounds more like YOUR problem than MY problem, since I personally don't mind if tech nodes have only just 1 or 2 parts to unlock (assuming I was just playing stock KSP with no other mods besides yours). Moreover, with the Hide Empty Tech Tree Nodes mod installed, not even empty science nodes would've been a problem for me either.

Besides, I've discovered that BDB doesn't really seem to do much to innovate beyond the limits of what stock KSP does (besides having some different engines with different fuels, such as Hydrazine-powered or Cryogenic Engines, but even then, many other mods offer those as well). In fact, I'm willing to bet that your mod would've worked just fine without BDB, instead using only stock KSP+Expansions' parts, plus a few other parts mods that, unlike BDB, would've actually added new gameplay features to stock KSP (such that stock KSP endgame technologies, like Ion Engines, Nuclear Engines, R.A.P.I.E.R. Engines, and In-Situ Resource Utilization technologies, would've been made to look more like midgame technologies), mods like the following (many of which you may already be quite familiar with):

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

• Recycled Parts mods (Adds a wide variety of stockalike parts from various older mods, much like BDB, only it's been done a-la-carte style.)
• Dr. Jet's Chop Shop (These add some additional uniquely-designed stockalike parts.)
• Near Future mods (A variety of mods that, like BDB, add in many new parts, but unlike BDB, are geared towards expanding the gameplay further into the future.)
• Far Future Technologies (Same, only that it adds more endgame-level technologies.)
• Impossible Innovations, MEV Heavy Industries (MEV) (Adds even more future-tech parts.)
• Atomic Technologies Inc Junkyard, Kerbal Atomics (Both of these add even more nuclear engines.)
• BurstAtomicThrustModule (Adds afterburner-like effects towards both stock and modded nuclear engines.)
• Cryogenic Engines, CryoEngines Extensions (Adds cryogenic engines that are powered by resources such as Liquid Hydrogen and Liquid Methane, which have better isp than regular liquid fuel engines, but require power to keep their fuel from boiling off.)
• Explodium-Breathing Engines (Adds jet engines that are designed to intake flammable air (such as, presumably, Hydrogen or Methane) from celestial bodies (such as Eve or Jool), and use it along with onboard Oxidizer to produce thrust similar to ordinary Liquid-Fuel-Powered Oxygen-Breathing Jet Engines.)
• TAC Life Support (Adds a life support system, along with many parts that would help keep your spacefaring Kerbals alive.)
• Deep Freeze (Allows Kerbals to be frozen in order to save on life support resources during long interplanetary trips.)
• Global Construction, Keridian Dynamics (KDVA) (Adds parts that allow players to use resources to build spacecraft from orbit, or from the surfaces of alien worlds.)
• Hangar (Adds hangar parts that allow other spacecraft to be unloaded from the game when stored inside, waiting to be loaded back in as desired, sort of like more developed cargo bays.)
• Beamed Power (Adds power beaming parts, which allows power to be beamed between spaceships, such as a solar collection spacecraft located close to the sun beaming power to other spacecraft located further away from the sun.)
• Photon Sailor, M.O.T.H.S. (Adds solar sails, which allow spacecraft to use only natural sunlight to slowly propel themselves across the solar system.)
• Silly Photon Drives (Adds photon drives, which allow spacecraft to use lots of electrical power to produce light, which is then used to push the spacecraft forwards.)
• Ore Engines (Adds engines that are powered by ore.)
• Netherdyne Mass Driver Mod (Adds mass driver/coilgun parts, which can accelerate spacecraft through its rings.)
• Alcubierre Warp Drive (Adds a fairly broken, yet limited, means of faster-than-light travel: an Alcubierre Warp Drive, which produces a warp bubble of limited size that would destroy parts that touch the bubble's edge.)
• Interstellar Warp Drive (Adds a slightly less broken means of faster-than-light travel: another Warp Drive, though this one has restrictions where the drives are less effective near gravity sources.)
• FTL Drive Continued (Adds a far less broken means of faster-than-light travel: Jump Drives and Jump Beacons, which could be used to create jump gate/stargate networks.)
• ESLD Jump Beacons (Adds yet more means of faster-than-light travel: Jump Beacons, which allow nearby ships to jump towards other beacons, though are initially too unstable for Kerbals or various energetic resources to survive the trip.)
• Comfortable Landing (Adds parts that aid in landing safely onto the ground, including some inflatable airbag-like lithobrakes and buoys.)
• Inline Ballutes (Adds balloon parts that, like drogue chutes, help in slowing down descent vehicles as they descend in atmospheres.)
• Ablative Airbrake (Adds an ablator-coated airbrake for controlling spacecraft as they enter a planet's atmosphere.)
• Radial Heat Shields (Adds heat shields that can be attached onto spacecraft radially.)
• TweakScale: Rescale Everything! (Allows existing stock parts, along with other modded parts that make use of this mod, to be rescaled, effectively making existing stock and modded parts flexible enough to be able to effectively fulfill the kinds of functions that far more massive parts mods like BDB would've been able to offer without this mod installed.)
• Procedural Parts, B9 Aerospace Procedural Wings (Offers a handful of parts with lots of flexibility, allowing them to make up for the absence of the wide varieties of part choices that parts mods like BDB would offer.)
• FuelWings (Allows various stock and modded wing parts to carry fuel inside of them.)
• Simple Fuel Switch (Allows fuel tanks to have their contents switched from, say, the base-game Liquid Fuel + Oxidizer, Liquid Fuel only, Monopropellant, and Xenon Gas resources that they were assigned to various other resources, both of the aforementioned kinds, and of modded resources such as Liquid Hydrogen, Liquid Methane, Hydrazine, and Argon Gas.)
• Airships (Adds lighter-than-air parts to better allow a more thorough exploration of such planets as Eve or Jool.)
• Ballast Water Tanks, MOIST! Underwater Technologies (Adds specialized parts, including ballast tanks, to allow for more underwater exploration.)
• SinkEmAll (Adds buoyancy controls to various stock parts.)
• Bargain Rocket Parts (Adds some silly junk parts that span a wide variety of uses, you know, to round out the bunch of parts that were already included.)
• Rusty Star Rockets (Likewise, though with more potential to complement stock parts.)

 

I'll check later on my PC to see if your mod would indeed work fine with stock + all of these above-mentioned mods (and then some, which all add up to around 17.2 GB within my GameData folder), but no BDB mod, installed. (Also, feel free to add support to any of the above mods, if missing.)

 

P.S.: Oh, and one last thing that I noticed is that your mod might be in conflict with the Community Tech Tree mod, since I'm seeing some messed-up nodes on the tech tree. It might be better for your mod to be able to work with the Community Tech Tree, if present, so that could be overwritten after having been loaded, since a few mods, like Interstellar Fuel Switch, FuelWings, KSP Interstellar Expanded, and Interstellar Technologies - A KSPI-E Expansion, all rely upon the Community Tech Tree mod as a dependency.

Sorry to say it like this but:
1. nowhere did @bigyihsuan say anything about YOUR or HIS problem.
@bigyihsuan merely gave you an answer to your question.
2. you are talking to @bigyihsuan as if it were his mod. But he is not the modder. The modder is @CessnaSkyhawk, which isn`t active since a few months.
3. I find it presumptuous to judge how others do THEIR mods. Whether this techtree would have worked with other mods is irrelevant here. The fact is that this techtree was created specifically for BDB. And a lot of people play with this combination.
If you don't like BDB or this techtree then just don't use BDB and use another techtree. Nobody is forcing you to use mod x or y.

But back to your question and to give you a simple answer:

Quote

what I question is WHY it depends on a mod as massive as Bluedog Design Bureau

Answer: Because the modder @CessnaSkyhawk wanted it that way.

[Shadow Wolf TJC]

Well, that explains alot. I take it I'm on my own when it comes to testing if this mod would really need BDB as a dependency?

And sorry for the apparent rudeness, but time is in short supply for me, so I don't always have time to check if the current mod maintainers are really the same people who developed the mod.

[JonnyOThan]

On 3/27/2024 at 6:01 PM, Shadow Wolf TJC said:

P.S.: Oh, and one last thing that I noticed is that your mod might be in conflict with the Community Tech Tree mod,

Tech tree mods are in general incompatible. It really sounds like you want skyhawk to be something that it isn’t.

Hey @Gupyzer0 and others: I started up a repo here for community maintenance on skyhawk: https://github.com/KSPModStewards/SkyhawkScienceSystem

I’ve merged the outstanding PRs and Gupyzer0’s whole branch there.  Feel free to send PRs there or if you’d like I can add you to the organization to make fixes directly.

@CessnaSkyhawk if you’re still around, let me know if you’re ok with that fork becoming the official release.  I don’t have a whole lot of time for active development but I can certainly coordinate merging fixes and making releases.

[Shadow Wolf TJC]

3 hours ago, JonnyOThan said:

Tech tree mods are in general incompatible.

I figured as much, though I'm still personally pretty annoyed when some mods list particular tech trees as their sole dependencies, locking out other mods in the process.

For example, the following mods list the Community Tech Tree as a dependency:

• Interstellar Fuel Switch
• KSP Interstellar Extended
• Grond's Micrometeorite Shield Mod
• Interstellar Technologies - A KSPI-E Expansion
• Fuel Wings (due to having Interstellar Fuel Switch as a dependency)

I've also noticed that a bunch of other mods that also list the Community Tech Tree as a dependency, though they merely make their own changes to the tree, whereas the mods mentioned above don't necessarily focus on making changes to the tech tree.

On the other hand, it seems that no other mods besides Skyhawk Kerbalism depends on Skyhawk Science System. And yet I just have so much appreciation for how Skyhawk organizes particular branches of technology, such as cryogenic engines, hypergolic engines, traditional kerolox engines, solid fuel engines, nuclear propulsion, nuclear power generation, aerodynamics, science, etc., with accompanying text descriptions to add some enjoyable humor throughout the tech tree.

3 hours ago, JonnyOThan said:

It really sounds like you want skyhawk to be something that it isn’t.

Perhaps I do, indeed? And perhaps I should focus on figuring out by myself how to get Skyhawk to play nicely with the Community Tech Tree mod, starting with loading Skyhawk after Community Tech Tree, so that the Community Tech Tree could be overwritten, and that any other mods that depend on the Community Tech Tree could have their parts' tech requirements moved to appropriate Skyhawk tech tree nodes?

With that said, however, I do wonder if the dev team in charge of maintaining Skyhawk wouldn't mind if someone were to develop and upload a mod that would help Skyhawk play nicely with the Community Tech Tree. (I sure hope so.  )

[JonnyOThan]

13 minutes ago, Shadow Wolf TJC said:

With that said, however, I do wonder if the dev team in charge of maintaining Skyhawk wouldn't mind if someone were to develop and upload a mod that would help Skyhawk play nicely with the Community Tech Tree. (I sure hope so.  )

I really doubt it because skyhawk basically IS the tech tree. 
 

interstellar fuel switch doesn’t depend on community tech tree, where did you get that idea?

Edited March 29 by JonnyOThan

[Shadow Wolf TJC]

48 minutes ago, JonnyOThan said:

interstellar fuel switch doesn’t depend on community tech tree, where did you get that idea?

CKAN

[JonnyOThan]

7 minutes ago, Shadow Wolf TJC said:

CKAN

Are you talking about the recommendation?  You can uncheck that.

[bigyihsuan]

2 hours ago, Shadow Wolf TJC said:

CKAN

In CKAN, a recommendation is not requirement; it's an entirely optional addition.

[Aelfhe1m]

Except CKAN does show IFS as having a dependency on CTT.

IFS core doesn't have it as a dependency or recommendation.

[AmanitaVerna]

4 hours ago, Shadow Wolf TJC said:

Perhaps I do, indeed? And perhaps I should focus on figuring out by myself how to get Skyhawk to play nicely with the Community Tech Tree mod, starting with loading Skyhawk after Community Tech Tree, so that the Community Tech Tree could be overwritten, and that any other mods that depend on the Community Tech Tree could have their parts' tech requirements moved to appropriate Skyhawk tech tree nodes?

It would be easier to copy the mm patches in the mods that depend on CTT and modify them to depend on Skyhawk instead and put the various parts into whatever part of the tech tree you want them in.

[JonnyOThan]

1 hour ago, Aelfhe1m said:

Except CKAN does show IFS as having a dependency on CTT.

IFS core doesn't have it as a dependency or recommendation.

Interesting, thanks. I didn’t check the ckan metadata but the forum post doesn’t list it as a dependency. I’ll have to check how that happened…

[Shadow Wolf TJC]

32 minutes ago, AmanitaVerna said:

It would be easier to copy the mm patches in the mods that depend on CTT and modify them to depend on Skyhawk instead and put the various parts into whatever part of the tech tree you want them in.

That seems like a good plan for a KSP modding newbie like myself to try tomorrow, after some nice shuteye. Thanks, and good night. <(zzz)

Edited March 30 by Shadow Wolf TJC

[Shadow Wolf TJC]

Progress has been slow, but here's an idea for a tiny little change to the start of SkyhawkScienceSystem.cfg that would force Skyhawk to load after the Community Tech Tree mod (which could be modified to include other tech tree mods such as Un-Kerballed Start, CSI Tech Tree, or Kiwi Tech Tree Overhaul):

@TechTree:AFTER[CommunityTechTree] // <-- Adding this should force Skyhawk's tech tree to load after Community Tech Tree.
{
	RDNode
	{
		id = start
		title = #autoLOC_501020 //#autoLOC_501020 = Start
		description = #autoLOC_501021 //#autoLOC_501021 = The technology we started out with.
		cost = 0
		hideEmpty = False
		nodeName = node0_start
		anyToUnlock = False
		icon = RDicon_start
		pos = -2600,1340,0
		scale = 0.6
	}
...

More discoveries and breakthroughs to follow...

Edited March 31 by Shadow Wolf TJC

[Shadow Wolf TJC]

Since some mods, like Interstellar Technologies and Blueshift, both current and futuristic, include technologies that I doubt that Skyhawk is equipped to deal with (such as, say, Kugelblitz Black Hole Drives, or different varieties of FTL travel that seem less OP than others, such as Jump Gates when compared to Alcubierre Warp Drives), I'd like to suggest some additional tech tree nodes (some for futureproofing reasons) for some additional sci-fi technologies as the following:

Spoiler

Futuristic Science Experiments Branch (for conducting various scientific experiments to better understand the nature of such sci-fi concepts as Tachyons, Gravimetrics, Wormholes, Hyperspace, Quantum Field Manipulation, and Warp Travel, eventually culminating in the development of a Unified Field Theory of life, the universe, everything!):

Spoiler

Tachyon Experimentation:

• Requires Quantum Computing and Machine Learning (due to the research likely being too much for even the most brilliant of Kerbal minds to be able to tackle without the assistance of such advanced computing algorithms)
• Would be a prerequisite for Tachyon Communications and Gravimetric Experimentation
• Would deal with the discovery of faster-than-light particles, called Tachyons, that the Kerbals could study throughout space (to see how they'd be affected by strong gravity, planetary masses, and other kinds of phenomena, even if subtly, by being in high orbit, low orbit, or even landed/splashed down on the surface in various biomes), which could prove quite useful for figuring out how they could be manipulated for other purposes, such as FTL communications.

Gravimetric Experimentation:

• Requires Tachyon Experimentation and A.I. Guidance
• Would be a prerequisite for Artificial Wormhole Experimentation
• Would deal with building upon the ability to detect and manipulate Tachyons in order for the Kerbals to develop the ability to detect gravitational disturbances in a way that would allow for the development of sensors that could more broadly map out gravitational disturbances (while in either high orbit, low orbit, or landed/splashed down on the surface of various celestial bodies) in a way that they could be displayed on a visual screen, much like how one could map out various frequencies of light or sound in such detail that they could be put on a screen (thus making the stock Gravioli Detectors seem like primitive instruments in comparison), not only allowing for the easier detection of asteroids, comets, black holes, and rogue planets in interstellar space, but could later allow for the development of such FTL technologies as Wormhole Generators.

Artificial Wormhole Experimentation:

• Requires Gravimetric Experimentation, Laser-Line Relays, Microwave Power Transmission, and A.I. Networks
• Would be a prerequisite for Hyperspace Experimentation, Hyperspace Communications, Hyperspace Power Transmission, and Jump Gates
• Would deal with building upon the discoveries made into the fields of Gravimetrics and Tachyonics in order for the Kerbals to develop the ability to create artificial wormholes to facilitate 2-way FTL travel between 2 points in space, and conduct experiments with how these wormholes could be influenced by the presence of celestial objects (whether they're in high orbit, low orbit, or landed/splashed down on the surface), in the hopes that the information gathered would be quite helpful in the development of such FTL technologies as Jump Gates (which would be limited in range), Hyperspace Communicators, and Hyperspace Power Transmitters, and would open the door to further exploration of Hyperspace.

Hyperspace Experimentation:

• Requires Artificial Wormhole Experimentation and Strange Matter Experimentation
• Would be a prerequisite for Quantum Field Manipulation and Hyperdrives
• Would deal with the ability to conduct experiments through Hyperspace, a parallel dimension of space where either the distances between celestial objects, including stars, are much smaller (like, say, 1% the distance or smaller for example), or the effects of gravity are far stronger (at least 1,000x stronger for example, also allowing for FTL travel, albeit limited to being alongside gravitational fields), where experiments would need to be carried out from various locations (such as in high orbit of a celestial object only, and not landed/splashed down on the surface, flying through the atmosphere, or even in low orbit due to concerns about, say, accidentally tearing apart large chunks of the celestial object in question due to, say, some unforeseen cataclysmic gravitational resonance phenomenon being generated through entering/leaving hyperspace), so that the Kerbals would eventually be able to learn that safe travel through Hyperspace would only be possible within interstellar space, on the edges of the gravitational fields of other stars, where the Oort Cloud would be, due to how dangerously-turbulent regions of hyperspace near gravitational fields tend to be, not only for the ships themselves, but also potentially for any nearby celestial objects.

Quantum Field Manipulation:

• Requires Hyperspace Experimentation and Kerbal Mind Emulation (since, by then, it would take a hypercomputer capable of processing data with enough memory to equal a thousand Kerbal minds)
• Would be a prerequisite for Warp Field Experimentation, Ansibles, and Vanometric Power Transmission
• Would deal with using the knowledge gained through the study of Tachyons, Gravimetrics, and Hyperspace to allow the Kerbals to conduct more thorough studies of the manipulation of the universe's quantum foam at various locations in space-time (such as in high orbit, low orbit, and landed/splashed down on the surface at various biomes), so that the research would help further the development of ever-more advanced FTL technologies like Ansibles (devices capable of instantaneous communications, even across galaxies), Vanometric Power Transmitters (sci-fi devices from RimWorld that act like power-beaming satellites, only they're capable of beaming power with no range limits), and Alcubierre Warp Drives.

Warp Field Experimentation:

• Requires Quantum Field Manipulation and Technological Singularity
• Would be a prerequisite for Unified Field Theory, Alcubierre Warp Drives, Blink Devices, and Stargates
• Would deal with the study of how different regions of space time would have an effect on Alcubierre Warp Fields, in order to determine how to safely use them for FTL travel, even within the limits of a planetary or star system, or move between solar systems that are hundreds, if not thousands, of light years apart in an instant.

Unified Field Theory:

• Requires Warp Field Experimentation and Mature Black Hole Generators
• Would be a prerequisite for Space Folding
• Would deal with the culmination of how the Kerbals' newly-granted knowledge regarding all of these various sci-fi concepts would have an effect upon their understanding of the nature of life, the universe, everything! Would also help in the creation of such hyper-advanced sci-fi technologies as Inertialess Drives (which would allow for infinite acceleration without any fear of G-forces affecting the spacecraft, as seen with alien UFOs that accelerate and decelerate in space in an instant), Anti-Gravity Devices (which could suspend spacecraft at certain altitudes and points without worrying about gravity), and Space Folding Devices (which would allow instantaneous travel towards distant star systems without the need of a Jump Gate or Stargate, though at a tremendous cost, even in comparison with other FTL technologies, such as, say, the cost of a Miniature Black Hole's worth of power).

Interstellar Communications Branch (for communications between star systems, starting with neighboring star systems, and progressing all the way to instantaneous long-distance FTL communications across galaxies via Ansibles):

Spoiler

Interstellar Communications:

• Requires A.I. Guidance, Deep Space Exploration, and Laser-Line Relays
• Would be a prerequisite for Tachyon Communications
• Would deal with using conventional technologies to not so much as communicate directly with spacecraft over a distance of at least 5 light years, but more like guide them in doing the right kinds of things.

Tachyon Communications:

• Requires Tachyon Experiments and Interstellar Communications
• Would be a prerequisite for Hyperspace Communications
• Would deal with manipulating faster-than-light particles known as Tachyons to effectively guide spacecraft over a distance of at least 25 light years.

Hyperspace Communications:

• Requires Artificial Wormhole Experimentation and Tachyon Communications
• Would be a prerequisite for Ansibles
• Would deal with creating artificial wormholes in space-time, and relaying data through them, in order to effectively communicate with spacecraft over a distance of at least 100 light years.

Ansibles:

• Requires Quantum Field Manipulation and Hyperspace Communications
• Would deal with manipulating the universe's quantum foam in order to effectively communicate with spacecraft anywhere in space, regardless of distance (even in another galaxy)!

Antimatter/Subatomic Matter/Strange Matter/Miniature Black Hole Generation Branch (for both power storage and propulsion):

Spoiler

Antimatter Experimentation

• Requires Mature Plasma Propulsion and Mature Fusion Systems
• Would be a prerequisite for Antimatter Reactions
• Would deal with early experiments in the collection, production, storage, and use of Antimatter in power production (though not yet in propulsion, which would come later on), which could be adequate for powering some early FTL technologies as Tachyon Relays and Jump Gates.

Antimatter Reactions

• Requires Antimatter Experimentation and Fusion Drives
• Would be a prerequisite for Improved Antimatter Reactions
• Would deal with further improvements in Antimatter collection, production, storage, and use in not only power production, but now also in propulsion systems.

Improved Antimatter Reactions

• Requires Antimatter Reactions
• Would be a prerequisite for Mature Antimatter Technology
• Would deal with even further improvements in Antimatter collection, production, storage, and use in both power production and propulsion systems.

Mature Antimatter Technology

• Requires Improved Antimatter Reactions
• Would be a prerequisite for Atom Smashers
• Would deal with reaching the pinnacle of Antimatter collection, production, storage, and use in both power production and propulsion systems.

Atom Smashers

• Requires Mature Antimatter Technology
• Would be a prerequisite for Strange Matter Experimentation
• Would deal with the splitting of atomic matter (and/or antimatter) into subatomic particles, or quarks, and using them for both power and propulsion.

Strange Matter Experimentation

• Requires Atom Smashers
• Would be a prerequisite for Miniature Black Hole Experimentation, Hyperspace Experimentation, Hyperspace Communications, Hyperspace Power Transmission, and Jump Gates
• Would deal with the compression of subatomic matter to densities approaching that of a neutron star, creating so-called Strange Matter (which could, alternatively, be created from such modded resources as Graviolium from Blueshift), which could then be used to power various sci-fi technologies, especially intermediate-level FTL technologies like Hyperdrives and Ansibles, or be compressed even further in order to create miniature black holes.

Miniature Black Hole Experimentation

• Requires Strange Matter Experimentation
• Would be a prerequisite for Mature Black Hole Generators
• Would deal with the early creation of miniature black holes, and their uses in early black hole drives and reactors, which should be sufficient at powering Alcubierre Warp Drives and Stargates.

Mature Black Hole Generators

• Requires Miniature Black Hole Experimentation
• Would be a prerequisite for Unified Field Theory
• Would deal with the maturation of miniature black hole technology in not only propulsion, including the use of only light in the creation of so-called Kugelblitz black holes, but also in energy production that would be sufficient for powering many of the more advanced FTL technologies like Alcubierre Warp Drives and Stargates, along with some physics-breaking non-FTL technologies like Inertialess Drives and Anti-Gravity Devices.

A.I. Technology Branch (for when A.I. grows advanced enough to not only be able to maneuver in space like a level 5 pilot, but also perform in-field repairs like an Engineer, reset experiments like a Scientist, and even process science data like a Scientist inside of a Mobile Processing Lab):

Spoiler

A.I. Networks

• Requires A.I. Guidance and Deep Space Exploration
• Would be a prerequisite for Artificial Wormhole Experimentation and Kerbal Mind Emulation
• Would deal with the creation of advanced autonomous probes, including self-replicating Von-Neumann Probes, with the capability of using swarms of miniature droids to manipulate objects in the field with precision rivaling, if not exceeding, a Kerbal Engineer's, including the ability to access inventories, place small parts onto spacecraft (including itself), deploy science experiments, and create surface bases (as if, like Kerbals, it had access to the Kerbal Inventory System).

Kerbal Mind Emulation

• Requires A.I. Networks
• Would be a prerequisite for Quantum Field Manipulation and Technological Singularity
• Would deal with the creation of autonomous probes with intelligence rivaling that of a particularly inexperienced Kerbal Scientist, granting it the capability of resetting experiments like only a Scientist could.

Technological Singularity

• Requires Kerbal Mind Emulation
• Would be a prerequisite for Warp Field Experimentation
• Would deal with the creation of autonomous probes with intelligence that would put even a talented Kerbal Scientist, like Bob, to shame, granting it the capability of using collected experiment data to generate science points, much like a Mobile Processing Lab with a Scientist.

FTL Power Transmission Branch (for when power needs to be transferred to distant spacecraft at superluminal velocities):

Spoiler

Starlifting:

• Requires Solar Sails
• Would be a prerequisite for Nicoll-Dyson Beams
• Would deal with the collection of resources, such as Hydrogen and Helium, from solar flares from within low solar orbit. (Named after the technique of using solar panels to reflect sunlight back at the star in a way that would cause matter to be ejected from it, though that would require a Dyson Swarm's worth of solar satellites to pull off.)

Nicoll-Dyson Beams:

• Requires Starlifting
• Would be a prerequisite for Hyperspace Power Transmission
• Would deal with the use of large amounts of power-beaming satellites in low solar orbit beaming power towards spacecraft with solar sails to propel them up to large fractions of the speed of light.

Hyperspace Power Transmission:

• Requires Artificial Wormhole Experimentation and Nicoll-Dyson Beams
• Would be a prerequisite for Vanometric/Quantum Power Transmission
• Would deal with the use of Wormhole Generators to beam power to distant spacecraft that are several light years away in a near-instant.

Vanometric/Quantum Power Transmission (named after the fictional Archotech devices from Rimworld that generate power from seemingly nowhere through quantum manipulation):

• Requires Hyperspace Power Transmission and Quantum Field Manipulation
• Would deal with the use of quantum field manipulation to transmit large amounts of power virtually anywhere else in the universe, even to the opposite side of the galaxy.

FTL Drives Branch (for when spacecraft need to reach their destinations in less time than it would take light to reach them):

Spoiler

Bussard Ramjets

• Requires Fusion Drives and Mature Plasma Propulsion
• Would be a prerequisite for Hyperdrives
• Would deal with the development of Bussard Ramjets, fusion drives which require Hydrogen that's scooped up from the interstellar medium via an enormous electromagnetic intake while flying across space at large fractions of the speed of light.

Hyperdrives

• Requires Bussard Ramjets and Hyperspace Experimentation
• Would be a prerequisite for Alcubierre Warp Drives
• Would deal with the development of Hyperdrives, which would allow spacecraft to fly through Hyperspace, which would drastically shorten their flight trips in-between solar systems when compared to simply flying through the interstellar medium.

Alcubierre Warp Drives

• Requires Hyperdrives and Warp Field Experimentation
• Would be a prerequisite for Space Folding
• Would deal with the development of Alcubierre Warp Drives, which would allow spacecraft to fly at FTL speeds, even between planets within a solar system.

Space Folding

• Requires Alcubierre Warp Drives and Unified Field Theory
• Would deal with the development of Space Folding Devices, which would use advanced A.I. technology (or horribly-mutated spice slugs) to safely facilitate travel between planets and stars in an instant, without having to worry about distance from either the departure or destination points towards any nearby celestial bodies in question, albeit at the cost of tremendous amounts of power, even when compared to other FTL technologies.

FTL Jump Gates Branch (for when spacecraft need to go from point A to point B back in an instant without needing to bring their own FTL Drives):

Spoiler

Jump Gates

• Requires Antimatter Experimentation and Artificial Wormhole Experimentation
• Would be a prerequisite for Stargates
• Would deal with the development of Jump Gates, which would allow 2-way instantaneous travel between it and any other Jump Gate within, say, a 25-light-year range, but must be placed at the edge of any planetary body's gravitational sphere of influence for interplanetary, intrasystem travel, or at the edge of any star's gravitational sphere of influence (such as within the Oort Cloud) for interstellar travel.

Stargates

• Requires Jump Gates and Warp Field Experimentation
• Would deal with the development of Stargates, which would allow 2-way instantaneous travel between it and any other Stargates within the universe, regardless of distance, but would otherwise be subject towards the same limitations as Jump Gates, except that Stargates can ONLY be used for interstellar travel, and not intrasystem interplanetary travel.

----------

Alternatively, I suppose those additions to Skyhawk's tech tree (along with the Community Tech Tree) could instead be saved or reserved for some other future mods that would indeed add sci-fi technologies such as these.

[JonnyOThan]

4 hours ago, Shadow Wolf TJC said:

I doubt that Skyhawk is equipped to deal

Did you check?  I see patches for blueshift…though admittedly I’ve never got that far in a playthrough.

[Shadow Wolf TJC]

@JonnyOThanYes, I did check, and I found it woefully underdeveloped (like one-of-two-sizes-fits-all underdeveloped) for the variety of FTL technologies that might be present in not only science fiction in general, but with all the mods that we currently have that do add FTL options, with only one tech node (plus a second one if BlueShift is present) covering all forms of FTL travel, whether it's more balanced and limited forms, like Jump Gates and Jump Drives from ESLD's Jump Beacons, or more "broken", like the standalone Alcubierre Warp Drive mod's, well, inner-system-capable Alcubierre Warp Drives, or more in-between, like Hyperdrives that could only be used safely at the edges of solar systems.

Again, like I said before, perhaps this might be better saved, at least for now, for a different mod to tackle, that does expand on the sci-fi elements in a manner that would've been more faithful towards the KSP experience, especially the science experiments (which I'd imagine our real-life scientists would've wanted to carry out before they'd consider certain FTL technologies mature enough to see wider acceptance, if such sci-fi concepts as Tachyons, Wormholes, Hyperspace, and Quantum Manipulation, were real), which I'm surprised nobody had ever thought about doing a mod for up until now (at least to my knowledge).

[JonnyOThan]

3 hours ago, Shadow Wolf TJC said:

I found it woefully underdeveloped (like one-of-two-sizes-fits-all underdeveloped)

Yeah I looked a little deeper, it does seem like it could be expanded.  I'd be surprised if CTT doesn't already have more options though.  But you'd need to figure out which parts from which mods go in which nodes, how much the nodes cost, and how the whole thing will work for different combinations of mods.

I wonder...is there any way to unlock a tech node based on doing a science experiment?  That seems fairly easy to build, and would be a really cool addition to what you're talking about.

[Shadow Wolf TJC]

47 minutes ago, JonnyOThan said:

Yeah I looked a little deeper, it does seem like it could be expanded.  I'd be surprised if CTT doesn't already have more options though.  But you'd need to figure out which parts from which mods go in which nodes, how much the nodes cost, and how the whole thing will work for different combinations of mods.

Alas, CTT also shares the same flaw with Skyhawk in that FTL technologies aren't adequately represented based on how balanced vs how game-breaking they are, though in CTT's case, there's no representation towards FTL technologies at all. Just the vague and generic Unified Field Theory and Ultra High Energy Physics nodes are likely used for such sci-fi FTL technologies as those represented in BlueShift.

Quote

I wonder...is there any way to unlock a tech node based on doing a science experiment?  That seems fairly easy to build, and would be a really cool addition to what you're talking about.

Not to my very limited knowledge, though I'd imagine that these sci-fi experiments would've yielded far more science than what's normally given in stock KSP, and yet, would've only been enough science points to help unlock the next tier of FTL technologies (provided that enough biomes at enough planets were visited), though not necessarily the tier afterwards.

Take a look at the base science values found in the base KSP game (science caps are in parentheses):

• Crew Report: 5
• EVA Report: 8
• Mystery Goo: 10 (13)
• Surface Sample: 30 (40)
• Materials Study: 25 (32)
• Temperature Scan: 8
• Pressure Scan: 12
• Seismic Scan: 20 (22)
• Gravity Scan: 20 (22)
• Atmospheric Analysis: 20 (24)
• Infrared Telescope: 15 (22)
• Magnetometer Report: 45
• EVA Science Experiment: 25
• Asteroid Sample: 60 (70)
• Short-Period Comet Sample: 90 (100)
• Intermediate-Period Comet Sample: 135 (150)
• Long-Period Comet Sample: 270 (300)
• Interstellar Comet Sample: 900 (1000)

Of course, countless other factors would need to be considered, including the data scales provided by being on different planets (with harder-to-reach planets typically yielding greater science rewards), or on different biomes on planets, or while on the surface, splashed down in liquid, flying through an atmosphere, or in high or low orbit above the planet, how much mass each science experiment possesses, how expensive each science experiment part is, which situations the experiment can be used on (such as seismometers only being useful while landed, while atmospheric analyzers only being useful within an atmosphere), whether the science experiments would need a Scientist to reset the experiment, and so on and so forth. However, there does seem to be a trend for science experiments that can only be carried out by more expensive, more high-tech, and more massive parts, such as Magnetometers, Gravioli Scanners, Surface Samples, and Materials Studies, all yielding more science gains than such cheap science experiments as mere Crew Reports, EVA Reports, Temperature Scans, Pressure Scans, and Mystery Goo Observations.

Of course, Comet Samples, especially the Interstellar ones, blow everything else out of the water due to how rare they are, how difficult they are to reach, and how massive they are, making them far, FAR more difficult to redirect for different science experiments around different planets than they are to reach.

If we were to continue with this trend, plus also adding in ever-larger energy costs (such as requiring a whole miniature black hole's worth of power for, say, powering up an Alcubierre Warp Drive), whilst also keeping in mind the kinds of science scaling that these extrasolar celestial bodies would likely possess that would make even Moho, Eve, and Eeloo seem uninteresting in comparison, then perhaps the following values for these kinds of sci-fi experiments would be adequate (assuming that each new FTL tech tier would double the amount of celestial bodies that could be reached in a reasonably-short period of time, and could also be within communication range, and that each new tier of FTL tech would require roughly 5-10x the amount of science as the previous tier)?

• Tachyon Scan: 100
• Gravimetric Scan: 500
• Wormhole Experiment: 5,000
• Hyperspace Experiment: 100,000
• Quantum Field Experiment: 4,000,000
• Warp Field Experiment: 320,000,000

That kind of exponential approach is what some other games with science systems might take to better push the player into settling for a larger base, empire, etc., and for getting used to everything within a tier of the technology tree before the game would consider the player ready to move on to the next tier. (Some games that I've played before that have done this include Autonauts, Factorio, Satisfactory, Dyson Sphere Program, and even a few old-school grand strategy games like Civilization, Master of Orion, and Galactic Civilizations.)

Of course, these values could be toned down by ALOT, and/or at certain places, if you'd rather like to keep giving the player incentives towards continuing with all of the lower-tech science experiments.

[AmanitaVerna]

2 hours ago, JonnyOThan said:

I wonder...is there any way to unlock a tech node based on doing a science experiment?  That seems fairly easy to build, and would be a really cool addition to what you're talking about.

Kerbal Flying Saucers can do this, in theory. When you do a particular experiment near a crashed UFO and return the results to KSC, there's supposed to be a chance to discover a UFO technology if you don't have it, or some other technology if you do. I don't actually know if it works because the chance of success is so low, and because I'm using Kerbalism and it might interfere because of how it changes science and the experiment modules.

[Aelfhe1m]

6 minutes ago, Shadow Wolf TJC said:

 

Quote

I wonder...is there any way to unlock a tech node based on doing a science experiment?  That seems fairly easy to build, and would be a really cool addition to what you're talking about.

Not to my very limited knowledge,

Contract Configurator allows you to specify the unlocking of a tech node as the reward for completing a (custom) contract, which could include collecting science from a specific experiment. So possible through a contract pack.

[AmanitaVerna]

Just now, Aelfhe1m said:

Contract Configurator allows you to specify the unlocking of a tech node as the reward for completing a (custom) contract, which could include collecting science from a specific experiment. So possible through a contract pack.

This wouldn't work if you're playing science mode, of course, since there are no contracts.

[Gupyzer0]

On 3/29/2024 at 11:42 AM, JonnyOThan said:

Tech tree mods are in general incompatible. It really sounds like you want skyhawk to be something that it isn’t.

Hey @Gupyzer0 and others: I started up a repo here for community maintenance on skyhawk: https://github.com/KSPModStewards/SkyhawkScienceSystem

I’ve merged the outstanding PRs and Gupyzer0’s whole branch there.  Feel free to send PRs there or if you’d like I can add you to the organization to make fixes directly.

@CessnaSkyhawk if you’re still around, let me know if you’re ok with that fork becoming the official release.  I don’t have a whole lot of time for active development but I can certainly coordinate merging fixes and making releases.

Ok!

I've been working on a new tech tree based on Skyhawk. My objective it's to merge that with my kerbalism config (made to work with BDB, SOCK and reDirect for now).

[Shadow Wolf TJC]

13 hours ago, Gupyzer0 said:

Ok!

I've been working on a new tech tree based on Skyhawk. My objective it's to merge that with my kerbalism config (made to work with BDB, SOCK and reDirect for now).

Sounds interesting. I'd be interested in taking a look at it if at all possible.

[Gupyzer0]

On 4/4/2024 at 12:08 AM, Shadow Wolf TJC said:

Sounds interesting. I'd be interested in taking a look at it if at all possible.

Sure.

The Kerbalism config is here -> https://github.com/Gupyzer0/Spacelines-Kerbalism

And the required tech tree here -> https://github.com/Gupyzer0/Spacelines_Tree

Still in the work  any bug/error you see (other than the SAS1 stuff that pops up in the loading screen) please tell me!

[Shadow Wolf TJC]

1 hour ago, Gupyzer0 said:

Sure.

The Kerbalism config is here -> https://github.com/Gupyzer0/Spacelines-Kerbalism

And the required tech tree here -> https://github.com/Gupyzer0/Spacelines_Tree

Still in the work  any bug/error you see (other than the SAS1 stuff that pops up in the loading screen) please tell me!

After taking a brief look, it seems like the tech tree doesn't have any new nodes, which is a bit disappointing, at least for me personally.

Nonetheless, I have no real complaints (especially since I have yet to try out Kerbalism myself, since I'm still new to modding for KSP in general). I am curious as to if you have plans to publish your mod on CKAN.