KSP 2 Suggestion: Beamed Energy

[GoldForest]

I was thinking beamed energy would be nice to have as a mid to late game mechanic.

We already have IR energy transmitters for the home. Yes, the power isn't that much, but the technology exists today. 

NASA and other space agencies have shown interest in beamed energy via solar arrays out in space. They would beam the energy to a receiver and then the receiver would send the energy into the power grid of a city. 

I think this would be very nice to have in KSP 2, especially for tidally locked planets where the sun never sees one side of the planet.

Here's a picture and a video of the idea for anyone who doesn't understand:

 

[Snafu225]

Interesting suggestion. I remember Scott Manley building a power relay network in his interstellar quest series, pretty certain it was part of the Interstellar mod. With all those rumours about mysterious planets in the kerbal system which are faaaar away it could be a nice alternative. 
From a technological standpoint I could see it fit the general scope KSP2 aims for. 
If CommNets are a thing again it also shouldn't be too hard to implement.

[SolarAdmiral]

This would be a fun feature. And not just for beaming power down to a planet but also going the other way. Using a huge ground fusion plant to beam power up to tiny super light ion probes and stuff.

 

A similar vein, I'd love to see solar sails eventually added as a propulsion method, with an added possibility of constructing massive laser stations either on the ground or in orbit which can be used to boost the craft with sails.

[GoldForest]

Just now, Snafu225 said:

With all those rumours about mysterious planets in the kerbal system which are faaaar away it could be a nice alternative. 

Wait... are you suggesting beaming energy from the inner solar system to Eeloo? 

Just now, SolarAdmiral said:

This would be a fun feature. And not just for beaming power down to a planet but also going the other way. Using a huge ground fusion plant to beam power up to tiny super light ion probes and stuff.

 

A similar vein, I'd love to see solar sails eventually added as a propulsion method, with an added possibility of constructing massive laser stations either on the ground or in orbit which can be used to boost the craft with sails.

Beaming Energy to a moving target would be difficult, so an ion probe would be out of the question. There would also be the problem of energy losses due to the distance. At some point, you would need to switch to something like RTGs or Solar Panels. Same with a space station. Moving targets are hard to hit, and you're beaming HIGH ENERGY MICROWAVES to the target. Humans and Microwaves don't mix, so I doubt Kerbals and Microwaves mix too. The only logical thing would be beaming energy down. 

As for solar sails and laser sails, would be nice, but I believe Intercept said no to those. 

[Snafu225]

Just now, GoldForest said:

Wait... are you suggesting beaming energy from the inner solar system to Eeloo? 

Wouldn't that be a usecase for it? Or do you think other methods would be more viable? Haven't put too much thought into it after reading your suggestion, though it sounded like a cool idea.

 

1 minute ago, GoldForest said:

Beaming Energy to a moving target would be difficult, so an ion probe would be out of the question. There would also be the problem of energy losses due to the distance. At some point, you would need to switch to something like RTGs or Solar Panels. Same with a space station. Moving targets are hard to hit, and you're beaming HIGH ENERGY MICROWAVES to the target. Humans and Microwaves don't mix, so I doubt Kerbals and Microwaves mix too. The only logical thing would be beaming energy down. 

As for solar sails and laser sails, would be nice, but I believe Intercept said no to those. 

Now we need to guesstimate how efficient/advanced a system like that would work in a near future setting like KSP aims to be. I remember Scott building multiple beam stations on Kerbin, so his crafts could always connect to them like multiple commnet sations are used. 

[SolarAdmiral]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beam-powered_propulsion

 

I mean systems have been proposed. None of the challenges are more difficult to overcome than say all the potential fusion power systems in the game.

And the microwaves from beamed power are no more dangerous than the atomic bombs and fusion particle beams were currently looking at for ksp2 propulsion. There's already going to be a system for radioactivity and I assume crew safety, it could just use that. Power recievers could simply be placed a long way from creating quarters. Or crew could be hidden behind some shielding discs.

Also, I don't think they said no to the laser and solar sail systems, they said they weren't currently working on them. But I'd be surprised if they didn't eventually add them if it is possible in the game engine without too much work. As it's a propulsion system that is currently being considered.

Edited January 15, 2023 by SolarAdmiral

[GoldForest]

Just now, Snafu225 said:

Wouldn't that be a usecase for it? Or do you think other methods would be more viable? Haven't put too much thought into it after reading your suggestion, though it sounded like a cool idea.

 

Now we need to guesstimate how efficient/advanced a system like that would work in a near future setting like KSP aims to be. I remember Scott building multiple beam stations on Kerbin, so his crafts could always connect to them like multiple commnet sations are used. 

Hmmm, while microwaves don't really lose energy over distance, I would think it would be hard to hit a target a few billion kilometers away instead of a few hundred thousand away. Although... the orbit is so slow that far that it might be easy for the transmitter to stay on target... hmmm. I don't know now. You might have a point to beamed power to the outer solar system.

 

Just now, SolarAdmiral said:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beam-powered_propulsion

 

I mean systems have been proposed. None of the challenges are more difficult to overcome than say all the potential fusion power systems in the game.

And the microwaves from beamed power are no more dangerous than the atomic bombs and fusion particle beams were currently looking at for ksp2 propulsion. There's already going to be a system for radioactivity and I assume crew safety, it could just use that. Power recievers could simply be placed a long way from creating quarters. Or crew could be hidden behind some shielding discs.

Also, I don't think they said no to the laser and solar sail systems, they said they weren't currently working on them. But I'd be surprised if they didn't eventually add them if it is possible in the game engine without too much work. As it's a propulsion system that is currently being considered.

Ah, right, true true. You could put a shield between the microwaves and crew. 

[Snafu225]

8 minutes ago, GoldForest said:

Hmmm, while microwaves don't really lose energy over distance, I would think it would be hard to hit a target a few billion kilometers away instead of a few hundred thousand away. Although... the orbit is so slow that far that it might be easy for the transmitter to stay on target... hmmm. I don't know now. You might have a point to beamed power to the outer solar system.

Shouldn't be any harder than pointing a space telescope at an interstellar object and track it. I'd say it could be feasible already, so it shouldn't be a problem in a more future setting. 

Edit: But I'm not an engineer in the slightest, so who knows  

 

8 minutes ago, GoldForest said:

Ah, right, true true. You could put a shield between the microwaves and crew. 

Either that, but to be honest I envisioned it's primary use for probes or powering colonies. In the latter you could have the receiver seperated from the colony itself.
 

Edited January 15, 2023 by Snafu225
See above

[SolarAdmiral]

14 minutes ago, GoldForest said:

Ah, right, true true. You could put a shield between the microwaves and crew. 

Also, the crew areas would have to have some sort of shielding built in. I'm not sure what sort of shielding microwave power would require, but whatever is keeping the kerbals safe from years or decades of solar and cosmic radiation surely would at least help.

But yes I'd mostly envisioned it used for unmanned probes. Maybe even cargo delivery.

Edited January 15, 2023 by SolarAdmiral

[tstein]

20 hours ago, GoldForest said:

I was thinking beamed energy would be nice to have as a mid to late game mechanic.

We already have IR energy transmitters for the home. Yes, the power isn't that much, but the technology exists today. 

NASA and other space agencies have shown interest in beamed energy via solar arrays out in space. They would beam the energy to a receiver and then the receiver would send the energy into the power grid of a city. 

I think this would be very nice to have in KSP 2, especially for tidally locked planets where the sun never sees one side of the planet.

Here's a picture and a video of the idea for anyone who doesn't understand:

 

With one condition, is a kerbal  cross in front of it its head should catch on fire and he/she shoudl  automatically start to run in circles for 5 minutes.

[GoldForest]

Just now, tstein said:

With one condition, is a kerbal  cross in front of it its head should catch on fire and he/she shoudl  automatically start to run in circles for 5 minutes.

They won't catch on fire, but they will be cooked from the inside out. It's microwaves, not a heat beam. 

[tstein]

1 minute ago, GoldForest said:

They won't catch on fire, but they will be cooked from the inside out. It's microwaves, not a heat beam. 

It is kerbal,  comedic physics overrule precise physics.

[GoldForest]

2 minutes ago, tstein said:

It is kerbal,  comedic physics overrule precise physics.

Yes, it's kerbal, but it still has to be within the realm of possibility. 

[tstein]

22 minutes ago, GoldForest said:

Yes, it's kerbal, but it still has to be within the realm of possibility. 

But do you know if kerbal skin is not made of an unique  substance that  flamates under microwave?

[Skorj]

Pretty sure this was a thing in the interstellar mod at some point.  Obviously, if there's a laser + solar sail system for propulsion, then the question about tracking has been answered.  Otherwise, if there's no speed of light delay, there's really no difficulty in tracking.

[AtomicTech]

On 1/15/2023 at 10:05 AM, GoldForest said:

I was thinking beamed energy would be nice to have as a mid to late game mechanic.

We already have IR energy transmitters for the home. Yes, the power isn't that much, but the technology exists today. 

NASA and other space agencies have shown interest in beamed energy via solar arrays out in space. They would beam the energy to a receiver and then the receiver would send the energy into the power grid of a city. 

I think this would be very nice to have in KSP 2, especially for tidally locked planets where the sun never sees one side of the planet.

Here's a picture and a video of the idea for anyone who doesn't understand:

 

Knowing a thing or two about EMR, this is a really bad idea on many different levels.

[GoldForest]

10 minutes ago, AtomicTech said:

Knowing a thing or two about EMR, this is a really bad idea on many different levels.

Bad idea IRL maybe, but not for Kerbals. They'll be fine. 

[AtomicTech]

3 hours ago, GoldForest said:

Bad idea IRL maybe, but not for Kerbals. They'll be fine. 

I can't imagine that a thick beam of high power microwaves would be good to a passing airplane or spacecraft.

Edited January 19, 2023 by AtomicTech

[Snafu225]

11 hours ago, Skorj said:

Pretty sure this was a thing in the interstellar mod at some point. 

As I said earlier Scott Manley built a network for it in his interstellar quest series.

 

23 minutes ago, AtomicTech said:

I can't imagine that a thick beam of high power microwaves would be good to a passing airplane or spacecraft.

It'll be fiiiiiine. Space is cold anyways so a little heat send to them little kerbalnauts is a good thing, right? RIGHT?!

[AtomicTech]

49 minutes ago, Snafu225 said:

As I said earlier Scott Manley built a network for it in his interstellar quest series.

 

It'll be fiiiiiine. Space is cold anyways so a little heat send to them little kerbalnauts is a good thing, right? RIGHT?!

[JadeOfMaar]

@GoldForest

Beamed power would be a fabulous addition to KSP2. The selling point of it is that the craft that needs power can skip from carrying the mass of an internal power source and the fuel for it. Since distance and the Inverse Square law make for a fundamental problem with beamed power and solar power, if the craft isn't super-heavy from carrying a nuclear reactor, it's super heavy from carrying lots of solar panel. A beamed power receiver still needs to have lots of surface area like a solar panel but it will have a much better power to mass ratio.

Tracking a vessel and catching beamed energy aren't a problem. Everything will be easily calculated and automated. Setup your infrastructure right and it would be like having a railway system. The problem then becomes if a ship ever has an emergency and needs to deviate from its set course. It better have a backup power source or be near to a planet with a beamed power relay system (so any wait on the power system to track it remains as short as possible).

Not all beamed power would be microwaves. KSP Interstellar allows for several options between that and UV rays and hard X-rays. Not all beamed power has to be sourced from solar either. The source can easily be a fusion powered station on or near a planet. While it is sourced from solar, there's another thing that very much needs to happen. That is Dyson Swarms. It can easily be worthwhile to deliver dozens of concentrator vessels (these would be very large vessels) into low orbit of Kerbol, then liberally/freely tap into the total concentrated power and deliver it to Jool, Eeloo, or far beyond them.

[AtomicTech]

12 minutes ago, JadeOfMaar said:

UV rays and hard X-rays

Which are quite problematic with both organic and inorganic components.

13 minutes ago, JadeOfMaar said:

The source can easily be a fusion powered station on or near a planet. While it is sourced from solar, there's another thing that very much needs to happen. That is Dyson Swarms. It can easily be worthwhile to deliver dozens of concentrator vessels (these would be very large vessels) into low orbit of Kerbol, then liberally/freely tap into the total concentrated power and deliver it to Jool, Eeloo, or far beyond them.

Inverse square law, also Kerbol would likely still realisitically do a better job.

Would I like to see it?

Yes, of course! I'd just want to see its hazards represented realisitically.

[Snafu225]

While I can't keep up with inverse square laws and what not. Yes I agree with both of you guys @AtomicTech and @JadeOfMaar. 

 

43 minutes ago, AtomicTech said:

Which are quite problematic with both organic and inorganic components.

Life support willl consist of two ressources: snacks and sunscreen. Also Kerbals can have glasses now .

For x-rays. Eh, whatever. 

[Skorj]

For those worried about the radiation damage from beamed power: there's a heck of a lot of radiation in space.  It's that giant unshielded fusion reactor at the center of things.  And of course the faster you go, the worse it gets, at least at interstellar speeds.  The beamed power to a ship designed to receive it is just not much danger compared to the general environment.

[SolarAdmiral]

21 hours ago, Skorj said:

For those worried about the radiation damage from beamed power: there's a heck of a lot of radiation in space.  It's that giant unshielded fusion reactor at the center of things.  And of course the faster you go, the worse it gets, at least at interstellar speeds.  The beamed power to a ship designed to receive it is just not much danger compared to the general environment.

Yes this is part of my point. Outside of earth's magnetosphere there's lots of radiation from the sun. Outside the sun's heliosphere there's cosmic radiation. All the new fusion and fission engines (even the old nerv) should be kicking out some pretty intense radiation. 

Beaming power via uv should be 100% safe to any kerbals because if your spacecraft can't block out uv then your crew will quickly be cooked. Whatever you're using to shield from other radiation should be more than enough to protect them from whatever you're using to beam power too.