Parallel-sequential missions: allow returning to the past after completing a mission

[Vl3d]

18 minutes ago, stephensmat said:

When I did Jool missions, I sent a large digger with a lot of engines on it. When my actual crew got there, I had a return booster waiting, full of fuel gathered from Pol or Bop, to bring them home. The Parallel Mission would only be able to work if there was only one craft in orbit at a time. Send a second craft to the same moon/planet, and there can be no interaction. Try to dock two craft during a single mission, and what happens?

Mission A ends when craft A is landed on Pol (the digger). Revert (which places the events on the main timeline) and do mission B which ends when the return booster arrives at Jool and is filled by the digger/refinery. Revert again and send the crew. While doing the crew journey the main timeline events take place and you find the fully fueled return booster and the digger there. Finish the mission by landing the crew back on Kerbin. Revert again. So you launched 3 missions using the same Jool transfer window. Everything from all missions has been recorded and placed on the main timeline. Each mission recording was added to the main timeline after you reverted time for each. Everything will happen in the future as you played it. No limitations regarding docking during missions.

Interactions reset the craft recordings from that point forward. New events are recorded. Missions branch out from the main timeline but the future events are copied to the mission timeline. When reverting the recorded events are placed on the main timeline. If you don't revert (there should be a choice), the mission timeline becomes the main timeline.

Edited February 2, 2023 by Vl3d

[Vl3d]

If this is how KSP2 works it will be mind-blowing. And the feature should be included in the EA release from the beginning. I really wonder if they also worked on AI agencies that you can have single player space races with.

I hyped myself up!

Edited February 2, 2023 by Vl3d

[Vl3d]

And I would like to add something else: this system works very well with other features like construction time, radiation damage and parts wearing out.. because you can always time warp during missions without paying the price of permanent failures. I'm not saying these will be stock, but they could be difficulty toggles.

[Vl3d]

I've taken it one step further. What if in KSP2 we'll be able to time warp in the direction of the past also? It would develop the F5-F9 mechanic. Of course it's not a major improvement of the OP idea, just streamlining. This one I would recommend for KSP3.

Edited February 2, 2023 by Vl3d

[linuxgurugamer]

4 hours ago, Vl3d said:

Most kinks can be avoided if the mission recording resets in the case of interaction. In case of assuming direct control or interaction it just sets a new mainline T-zero and a new mission timeline starts. Returning to the starting point would be optional of course.

Certainly an idea, but kind of restricts your options.

2 hours ago, tstein said:

That woudl be hellish complicated  to implement  AND would   go in a bad direction  of the feeling of managing a space program. It becomes too much  a n arcade feeling for me

Well, some people want to manage a space program.  Kind of like what I do currently, but I just do it in the game itself.

[RealKerbal3x]

1 hour ago, Vl3d said:

If this is how KSP2 works it will be mind-blowing. And the feature should be included in the EA release from the beginning. I really wonder if they also worked on AI agencies that you can have single player space races with.

I hyped myself up!

If you're basing your excitement for the game on a feature that you yourself thought up and has never been officially discussed or confirmed, you're setting yourself up for disappointment.

Not to say it's a bad idea - I think it could be pretty neat if implemented right - but it's unlikely we're getting something like this from the beginning given how significant of a feature it would be.

11 minutes ago, Vl3d said:

This one I would recommend for KSP3.

Maybe a little off-topic, but does the idea of KSP3 even make sense? The scope increase of interstellar travel was a logical next step for KSP2, but beyond that I don't see where you could take the franchise without leaning into fantasy/soft sci-fi elements that aren't really what KSP is about.

[Vl3d]

2 minutes ago, RealKerbal3x said:

Maybe a little off-topic, but does the idea of KSP3 even make sense? The scope increase of interstellar travel was a logical next step for KSP2, but beyond that I don't see where you could take the franchise without leaning into fantasy/soft sci-fi elements that aren't really what KSP is about.

Give the complete quote. It was just a very short extra comment about having reversible time zoom, a thought experiment. The reference to KSP3 was a joke referring to the complexity of having reversible rigid body array physics.

20 minutes ago, Vl3d said:

I've taken it one step further. What if in KSP2 we'll be able to time warp in the direction of the past also? It would develop the F5-F9 mechanic. Of course it's not a major improvement of the OP idea, just streamlining. This one I would recommend for KSP3.

 

[Vl3d]

4 hours ago, Vl3d said:

Braching off of mission timelines should be avoided. Best to only allow branching off of the main timeline and then focus exclusively on a mission until the desired on-rails / static state which marks the missions end is achieved (can be craft in orbit .. even a transfer is an orbit .. or landed or docked etc.).

If I think about it more.. I believe that branching off mission timelines is not even an issue, considering that even during a mission you're on the main timeline but warped in the future. There are really no alternative timelines, just recorded events that get added to the main timeline and the possibility of going back to a point in time before the events take place.

25 minutes ago, linuxgurugamer said:

Certainly an idea, but kind of restricts your options.

If interacting with / taking control of craft resets the future events recording, that would mean that also any future events from other missions that interacted with the craft get deleted from the point of interaction onward. So if you take control you only have to redo the parts of the missions for which casualty changed.. but you still have the milestones up to that point recorded on the main timeline.

27 minutes ago, RealKerbal3x said:

If you're basing your excitement for the game on a feature that you yourself thought up and has never been officially discussed or confirmed, you're setting yourself up for disappointment.

Nah, no disappointment, worst case it's groundwork for future game updates or mods. Best case.. devs already thought this through and implemented it.

Edited February 2, 2023 by Vl3d

[linuxgurugamer]

3 hours ago, Vl3d said:

If interacting with / taking control of craft resets the future events recording, that would mean that also any future events from other missions that interacted with the craft get deleted from the point of interaction onward. So if you take control you only have to redo the parts of the missions for which casualty changed.. but you still have the milestones up to that point recorded on the main timeline.

You are ignoring the issue of how to reconcile any vessel(s) in the branch which need to be placed at the appropriate locations/orbits/etc if you break the branch.  Not saying it's undoable, but certainly not a simple issue.  The mod would have to keep track of all vessels, locations, orbits, maneuvers etc.

[Vl3d]

I've thought about it some more and I think interaction with the craft could be feasable without resetting the recorded events timeline from that point onward if we have mechjeb-like automated control using milestones.

The craft (or capable subassembly in case of separation) would just try to adapt and continue with the mission even if crippled or modified. If the physics simulation doesn't allow it to be successful (not enough Delta V for example of broken solar panels) then.. yes it would fail.

[Vl3d]

On 2/2/2023 at 7:38 PM, linuxgurugamer said:

The mod would have to keep track of all vessels, locations, orbits, maneuvers etc.

Yes.. that's why it's not going to be a mod. It's going to be a sequel.

[linuxgurugamer]

1 hour ago, Vl3d said:

I've thought about it some more and I think interaction with the craft could be feasable without resetting the recorded events timeline from that point onward if we have mechjeb-like automated control using milestones.

The craft (or capable subassembly in case of separation) would just try to adapt and continue with the mission even if crippled or modified. If the physics simulation doesn't allow it to be successful (not enough Delta V for example of broken solar panels) then.. yes it would fail.

I read this, and it's very obvious you haven't ever done anything like this.  Do you even know how to code?

The phrase:

1 hour ago, Vl3d said:

just try to adapt and continue

is just so oblivious to the issues involved.

15 minutes ago, Vl3d said:

Yes.. that's why it's not going to be a mod. It's going to be a sequel.

You sound so sure of yourself.  Who is going to write this "sequel"?

[Vl3d]

2 minutes ago, linuxgurugamer said:

Do you even know how to code?

Yes. I understand the scale of the undertaking. I have the utmost respect for you, the modders and the devs. I understand what it takes.

3 minutes ago, linuxgurugamer said:

Who is going to write this "sequel"?

I believe it has already been written by the devs. The sequels' name is KSP2.

If I'll be proven wrong and this is not how the game will be, I hope someone will do it someday.

[linuxgurugamer]

1 hour ago, Vl3d said:

I believe it has already been written by the devs. The sequels' name is KSP2.

Very funny.  But I'm pretty sure they aren't implementing what you are looking for.  Among other things, multiplayer is at the end of the roadmap, which is where something like this would fit.

[Vl3d]

11 minutes ago, linuxgurugamer said:

Very funny.  But I'm pretty sure they aren't implementing what you are looking for.  Among other things, multiplayer is at the end of the roadmap, which is where something like this would fit.

Space races against AI could be added at any time, even at EA release. And what's fun about that is that you don't have to really worry about interactions. You could allow physical contact, sabotage the AI, even destroy their craft to prevent them reaching the destination. Great gameplay!

We will see.. maybe I'm dreaming.

[Snafu225]

I have absolutely no issue with you dreaming about features, but it becomes a problem when those dreams spill over into other threads and/or the discord where it often sounds like some sound speculation or even confirmed. There are many, many users who aren't knowledgeable about these threads and run off with bad information. 
I understand your hype and I'm really hyped myself, but those "make believe upcoming-features" combined with the fact that you're (what feels like) here all day everyday (which isn't bad in itself) is a dangerous combination and those dreams have to be clearly separated from facts.

Much love

[Vl3d]

22 minutes ago, Snafu225 said:

I have absolutely no issue with you dreaming about features, but it becomes a problem when those dreams spill over into other threads and/or the discord where it often sounds like some sound speculation or even confirmed. There are many, many users who aren't knowledgeable about these threads and run off with bad information. 
I understand your hype and I'm really hyped myself, but those "make believe upcoming-features" combined with the fact that you're (what feels like) here all day everyday (which isn't bad in itself) is a dangerous combination and those dreams have to be clearly separated from facts.

Much love

What does this have to do with the OP suggestion? It sounds to me like you're saying that hypothetical ideas can pass as information about the game because nothing is revealed, confirmed or denied. If you want to talk about official information about the game, ask the team.

[LHACK4142]

Back to the idea, one way of doing it would be to actually record all of the things the user does to the craft that's launched first, for example write in a file that the user throttled up to 20% at exactly 2 days, 5 hours, 18 minutes, and 23.12 seconds in the mission, and automatically execute all those actions while the user is flying the parallel mission. This way, you don't really have to worry about much at all- the ship can even be docked to, interacted with, etc, and would act exactly like any other ship (except for the fact that it would be doing stuff on its own). This definitely might take up too much space though, or suck performance-wise, but if it doesn't, it might be a good way to do this

[Snafu225]

This has to do with you hyping yourself up about this idea to a point where you consider it like the following:

5 hours ago, Vl3d said:

It's going to be a sequel.

5 hours ago, Vl3d said:

I believe it has already been written by the devs. The sequels' name is KSP2.

On 2/2/2023 at 2:50 PM, Vl3d said:

worst case it's groundwork for future game updates

and I remember you even once saying that this will be feature causing KSP2 to become "award winning" but this was since edited out (Kudos to that) and similar exclamations being done in discord, where I've seen people take that as fact. Some believed you, when you said that AI agencies are possible at launch and I don't know if they realized that this was just some speculation.  So yes I'm saying that hypothetical ideas are being passed as information by you even if I honestly believe that this wasn't your intention. 
All that while really experienced modders ( @linuxgurugamer ) voice valid questions, issues or upcoming problems, which are given close to no regard only to one up the original idea after thinking about it some more.

 

Coming back to the topic itself: I do agree with you and could see a feature like that work, maybe piggybacking off the delivery route system but it certainly won't be coming any time soon most definetily not with EA release. But as Linuxgurugamer said, as soon as timeshifting and having to manage different "game branches" in the background things can become complicated and hard to overlook really easily. So additionally in my oppinion we'd need a tool which helps us track what is happening/has happened but hasn't manifested itself yet and will be happening.
The trick will be to find a ressource friendly system for tracking/logging lots of stuff for example for an interstellar mission which will take years maybe even decades ingame time in which other  stuff will happen and need to be recorded. This has to work on top of background colonies, accelerations under timewarp,  the ressource system etc. 

 

Edit: TLDR: Nothing against your hype and nothing personal, just be careful how some stuff is worded as I don't want some wild speculations to be spread as fact which in the end will just end as dissappointment, not for you but others.

Edited February 6, 2023 by Snafu225
^

[Vl3d]

51 minutes ago, Snafu225 said:

it certainly won't be coming any time soon most definitely not with EA release

I don't agree with this type of sentiment. I have written about a lot of new ideas and how they can be implemented. If you're not coming up with solutions about how cool ideas can actually be made to work in the game, what's the point of the comment?

Yes I think KSP2 will include some of these concepts, it's obvious for me. Yes I think KSP2 will be ground breaking and will win awards. I can't be disappointed because I know for a fact the devs are passionate and creative. They probably thought about this stuff years ago and it's already done.

I care about ideas, not about hype or disappointment. I want KSP2 to be the best game ever made. I come up with sound suggestions and use logical arguments to explain them. It's that simple.

Just ignore my ideas if you don't like them.

51 minutes ago, Snafu225 said:

timeshifting and having to manage different "game branches" in the background things can become complicated

There are no different branches. There's just the main timeline current time and the mission time. That's it. Events get recorded during the mission and get added to / placed on the main timeline. As time advanced the events of the main timeline take place.

The system is theoretically functional and allows for a lot of new cool gameplay mechanics.

Edited February 6, 2023 by Vl3d

[Snafu225]

5 minutes ago, Vl3d said:

Just ignore my ideas if you don't like them.

See below:

50 minutes ago, Snafu225 said:

I do agree with you and could see a feature like that work

_______

6 minutes ago, Vl3d said:

If you're not coming up with solutions about how cool ideas can actually be made to work in the game, what's the point of the comment?

See below:

51 minutes ago, Snafu225 said:

maybe piggybacking off the delivery route system

52 minutes ago, Snafu225 said:

The trick will be to find a ressource friendly system for tracking/logging lots of stuff for example for an interstellar mission

53 minutes ago, Snafu225 said:

So additionally in my oppinion we'd need a tool which helps us track what is happening/has happened but hasn't manifested itself yet and will be happening.

________

8 minutes ago, Vl3d said:

I can't be disappointed

See below:

54 minutes ago, Snafu225 said:

not for you but others.

 

[Vl3d]

1 hour ago, Snafu225 said:

I don't want some wild speculations to be spread as fact which in the end will just end as dissappointment, not for you but others.

It's not your responsibility to manage expectations just to avoid disappointment. If the game is good, then it will be well received. If it's mediocre, then it will be improved. I took it on myself to find ideas and suggestions that could make this game great and to show people that stuff they say "can't be done" is very much possible.

Speculation encourages creativity. Good ideas can become mods or game mechanics.

Don't worry about people's feelings, that's just your love for KSP trying to be protective of the game and the community.

[Kerbart]

With the discussions on autosave and the ability to rewind at will in mind, how does "rewind to before I done goofed up" distinguish itself from "rewind to before this future mission that I certainly want to happen?"

Not meant to criticize or "shoot holes," just food for thought.

[Vl3d]

10 minutes ago, Kerbart said:

With the discussions on autosave and the ability to rewind at will in mind, how does "rewind to before I done goofed up" distinguish itself from "rewind to before this future mission that I certainly want to happen?"

Not sure I understand the question. Rewinding would be useful during a mission, it would rewind only the current craft's recorded events. When you're done rewinding, events outside of the current mission are still on the timeline and play out like they've been recorded. But this is more appropriate for the F5-F9 thread.

Edited February 6, 2023 by Vl3d

[Snafu225]

42 minutes ago, Vl3d said:

There are no different branches. There's just the main timeline current time and the mission time. That's it. Events get recorded during the mission and get added to / placed on the main timeline. As time advanced the events of the main timeline take place.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding it but it would look like this?

Mission A: Events 1-15 are happening -> Final ingame time: 3y

Mission B: Events 1-10 are happening -> Final ingame time 2y

etc add however many we want, now they all get recorded. Now I jump back into time to do my really long interstellar. 

And now everything  recorded and saved somewhere/somehow (haven't come up with a way to do it) gets projected onto the mission.So do I tell that system that it has to record now or is it supposed to record all the time until I hit the button to jump back? How do I queue multiple timelines and how would you tell the system that now it's go time?

 

Spoiler

 

18 minutes ago, Vl3d said:

It's not your responsibility to manage expectations just to avoid disappointment

No, it's not. You're right. It's yours not to spread false information as fact or close to fact.  I'm just pointing out that it is considered bad practice and is not welcome by most (especially discord mods though) to spread false information.

To quote you from the discord:

Quote

do you guys realize that we might be getting AI controlled space agencies and space-race gameplay right from the start of Early Access?

 

 

Edited February 6, 2023 by Snafu225