Please, give the community KSP1's source code

[Lisias]

Ha! I think I kinda did it. Poorly, but I did it!

This is what I managed to put together on a Sunday night. Let's see if I managed to do better as the week pass by!

Edited June 26, 2023 by Lisias
FIxing image

[chaos113]

ksp still makes money for squad and take 2, they aint gonna release it yet until ksp2 over takes it 

[Lisias]

New version, slightly more informative.

---- Post Edit ----

I need to.rework the subtitles. It was already marginal on a desktop,  but on mobile the central words look like crap.

Edited June 26, 2023 by Lisias
Post edit

[GGG-GoodGuyGreg]

No offense to the team currently developing KSP2 but after such a launch, KSP1’s source code became even more valuable and is quite a good plan B for revenue if KSP2 goes south. 
 

Therefore, I doubt it will happen and we will see KSP1’s source code.

Edited June 26, 2023 by GGG-GoodGuyGreg

[Lisias]

6 hours ago, GGG-GoodGuyGreg said:

No offense to the team currently developing KSP2 but after such a launch, KSP1’s source code became even more valuable and is quite a good plan B for revenue if KSP2 goes south. 
 

Therefore, I doubt it will happen and we will see KSP1’s source code.

Since the Source is already being used on the wild by shady practices (that are considered piracy on Forum and so I can't name them), the sad true is that they already lost control of it.

IMHO opening the Source, even in a controlled and restricted way as Unity does, will only formalize something that's already happening but extending it to people that are still willing to play by the rules.

I will say it again: the Source is already available to anyone having the tools and not giving a crap for the EULA and Forum Rules.

Our pledge is giving  access to it also to people that care about this Game and the Community that formed around it. The best people usually don't like to deal with shady practices!

The real value of the Franchise is in the Lore, the Graphic Assets, and this Community!

— — POST EDIT — — 

I think I nailed the text!

Found the fonts used on the 1984 Movie (Albertus and ITC Avante Guarde). At least the text looks tight now.

There's something to be improve on the Princess image?

Edited June 26, 2023 by Lisias
POST EDIT

[MashAndBangers]

I'll throw my hat into this.  The Source must flow.

[StormxWolf]

Why not just ask T2 directly? They won't just do it because a bunch of people signed a petition. Literally send an email to (publicly and legally available) anyone at T2 if you guys believe this is doable. All this talk about a turning point and doing the right thing seems rather pointless. This is a community of maybe 5000-10000 people spread across the globe. Maybe 50% of those people will actually get on board. It won't just explode and become a social movement so I imagine asking is really your only option.

 

I think the real solution is not to bark up this tree and waste the energy because I agree with most: they just wont release the source code for a barely 10 year old game still making plenty of money. The best possible solution (IMO) is to start an OpenKSP project (like OpenTTD, google it, highly successful). I am not a lawyer but I believe if you recreate the game with your own code they would have to issue a cease and desist to stop you. They only typically do that if it eats into the bottom line (this is a corporation, lets not forget). This is also easily possible but I imagine in the time it takes to recreate KSP with original (not crappy) code, KSP1 would hopefully be at a point where OpenKSP isn't a bottom line issue. Also issuing C&D's is typically not good for publicity especially in the PC game sphere and would probably tarnish the game's reputation.

[Lisias]

10 hours ago, StormxWolf said:

Why not just ask T2 directly? They won't just do it because a bunch of people signed a petition. Literally send an email to (publicly and legally available) anyone at T2 if you guys believe this is doable. All this talk about a turning point and doing the right thing seems rather pointless. This is a community of maybe 5000-10000 people spread across the globe. Maybe 50% of those people will actually get on board. It won't just explode and become a social movement so I imagine asking is really your only option.

I think the real solution is not to bark up this tree and waste the energy because I agree with most: they just wont release the source code for a barely 10 year old game still making plenty of money. 

You answered the question yourself. They will not do it just because a random crazy dude sent them an email. The employee receiving it will just delete the email and forget about - Kraken knows how many of the emails I received at day job nowadays are SPAM and go the same way.

But now it's not only a random crazy dude, it's some serious bunch of people, some of them influential community members. Additionally, we got a nice brainstorming where the pros and cons of the proposal were discussed, getting a grasp on how to better sell our fish.

Sending an email to someone there (as long as we find one that would at least read it) is the final logical step, but never the first.

About making plenty of money, assuming this is really happening - how much money more do you think they would make once the worst and more annoying bugs are properly fixed, cleaning up the code base and making at least feasible to repurpose it on new products (tablets, mobiles, whatever - there're wristwatches nowadays more powerful that the desktops that used to run the first versions of this game!)?

In essence: we are a bunch of skilled workmanship willing to do some Pro Bono work with our free time in order to get this game tight now.

Some people can do it in the shadows, outside this Community and for their own benefit. Some other people prefers to do it in the clear, inside the Community and giving back to it what this Community had given to us in the past.

In the end, this is really the only choice to be made: who they want running the Modding Scene? People relying on shady practices or people in compliance with their own EULA?

 

10 hours ago, StormxWolf said:

The best possible solution (IMO) is to start an OpenKSP project (like OpenTTD, google it, highly successful). I am not a lawyer but I believe if you recreate the game with your own code they would have to issue a cease and desist to stop you. They only typically do that if it eats into the bottom line (this is a corporation, lets not forget). 

And that's the problem: we don't want another game, we want this one fixed. There're already open source initiatives around, but none of them will remotely open our savegames so we can keep playing them. And this is what really matters in the end for the users.

 

10 hours ago, StormxWolf said:

This is also easily possible but I imagine in the time it takes to recreate KSP with original (not crappy) code, KSP1 would hopefully be at a point where OpenKSP isn't a bottom line issue. 

And that's the confusion: we are not pledging a way to create a new KSP, we are pledging legal access to the KSP's source code so we can fix bugs and do a better job on modding it without relying on shady practices in violation of the EULA and Forum Publishing Guidelines and Rules (no to mention some few draconian legislations around the World), and nothing beyound that.

Don't you see a problem here? A Community publicly relying on shady, EULA infringement practices in an officially sanctioned Forum?

 

10 hours ago, StormxWolf said:

Also issuing C&D's is typically not good for publicity especially in the PC game sphere and would probably tarnish the game's reputation.

it took me some time to understand "C&D", the result that appeared the most on Google was "Construction & Demolition"    But then I found "Creative & Development" and I finally understood.

Nope, you are not getting it. The problem on long discussions like this one is that people usually don't have the time neither the patience to read trough all of it and we ended up in a misunderstanding.

We do not want to clone KSP. We want legal access (even if limited) to the Source Code (and only to it) so we can do better our job on fixing bugs plaguing users and improving our Add'Ons. We don't want rights over the Creative Assets (meshes, lore, characters, textures, config files, missions, etc), we are not intending to recompile and redistribute the thing.

Spoiler

Obviously that having access to the code under a GPL license would be marvellous, but at least me understand that they will be very reticent on doing that without being sure about getting their part of the bargain - so a Unity style access to the Source is a short term compromise that would do the same for us.

And we can always talk again about the subject later, if this first part of the project renders good results.

You see, the Source itself is already available on the wild for people that knows how to use certain tools trough shady practices that this Forum consider piracy (believe on me about this one) and so I can't really talk about.

But there're people around here (apparently the majority of us) that are not willing to engage on such shady practices, and so the only real way to do a better job on this Scene would be by having legal access to the Source Code, even than a very limited way - we don't need the right to change and redistribute the code, because we are not pledging the right to do derivatives. What we want is the right to legally read the Source Code without risking our SASes by violating the EULA (as well some few draconian legislations as mine) - not to mention this Forum's Publishing Guidelines.

The Genie is already out of the Bottle, the Source is already being read by people that don't mind such details.

Our pledge is to give us the same right, under EULA and Forum Rules compliance, so we can do a better job without disrespecting such EULA and Forum rules.

Additionally, about Development… It's my understanding that game companies relies on outsourcing all the time. Why outsourcing the source code to Open Source workmanship would be bad? Apple did that in the past (Darwin), to say the least…

Edited June 28, 2023 by Lisias
Tyops, as usulla…

[AtomicTech]

On 6/27/2023 at 7:03 PM, Lisias said:

You answered the question yourself. They will not do it just because a random crazy dude sent them an email. The employee receiving it will just delete the email and forget about - Kraken knows how many of the emails I received at day job nowadays are SPAM and go the same way.

But now it's not only a random crazy dude, it's some serious bunch of people, some of them influential community members. Additionally, we got a nice brainstorming where the pros and cons of the proposal were discussed, getting a grasp on how to better sell our fish.

Sending an email to someone there (as long as we find one that would at least read it) is the final logical step, but never the first.

About making plenty of money, assuming this is really happening - how much money more do you think they would make once the worst and more annoying bugs are properly fixed, cleaning up the code base and making at least feasible to repurpose it on new products (tablets, mobiles, whatever - there're wristwatches nowadays more powerful that the desktops that used to run the first versions of this game!)?

In essence: we are a bunch of skilled workmanship willing to do some Pro Bono work with our free time in order to get this game tight now.

Some people can do it in the shadows, outside this Community and for their own benefit. Some other people prefers to do it in the clear, inside the Community and giving back to it what this Community had given to us in the past.

In the end, this is really the only choice to be made: who they want running the Modding Scene? People relying on shady practices or people in compliance with their own EULA?

 

And that's the problem: we don't want another game, we want this one fixed. There're already open source initiatives around, but none of them will remotely open our savegames so we can keep playing them. And this is what really matters in the end for the users.

 

And that's the confusion: we are not pledging a way to create a new KSP, we are pledging legal access to the KSP's source code so we can fix bugs and do a better job on modding it without relying on shady practices in violation of the EULA and Forum Publishing Guidelines and Rules (no to mention some few draconian legislations around the World), and nothing beyound that.

Don't you see a problem here? A Community publicly relying on shady, EULA infringement practices in an officially sanctioned Forum?

 

it took me some time to understand "C&D", the result that appeared the most on Google was "Construction & Demolition"    But then I found "Creative & Development" and I finally understood.

Nope, you are not getting it. The problem on long discussions like this one is that people usually don't have the time neither the patience to read trough all of it and we ended up in a misunderstanding.

We do not want to clone KSP. We want legal access (even if limited) to the Source Code (and only to it) so we can do better our job on fixing bugs plaguing users and improving our Add'Ons. We don't want rights over the Creative Assets (meshes, lore, characters, textures, config files, missions, etc), we are not intending to recompile and redistribute the thing.

  Reveal hidden contents

Obviously that having access to the code under a GPL license would be marvellous, but at least me understand that they will be very reticent on doing that without being sure about getting their part of the bargain - so a Unity style access to the Source is a short term compromise that would do the same for us.

And we can always talk again about the subject later, if this first part of the project renders good results.

You see, the Source itself is already available on the wild for people that knows how to use certain tools trough shady practices that this Forum consider piracy (believe on me about this one) and so I can't really talk about.

But there're people around here (apparently the majority of us) that are not willing to engage on such shady practices, and so the only real way to do a better job on this Scene would be by having legal access to the Source Code, even than a very limited way - we don't need the right to change and redistribute the code, because we are not pledging the right to do derivatives. What we want is the right to legally read the Source Code without risking our SASes by violating the EULA (as well some few draconian legislations as mine) - not to mention this Forum's Publishing Guidelines.

The Genie is already out of the Bottle, the Source is already being read by people that don't mind such details.

Our pledge is to give us the same right, under EULA and Forum Rules compliance, so we can do a better job without disrespecting such EULA and Forum rules.

Additionally, about Development… It's my understanding that game companies relies on outsourcing all the time. Why outsourcing the source code to Open Source workmanship would be bad? Apple did that in the past (Darwin), to say the least…

Let's make this a reality folks

[Aerodynamic Kerbal]

I feel like we need the 3D files of kerbals themselves, I REALLY REALLY WANT A 3D PRINTED KERBAL THAT LOOKS LIKE A KERBAL AND NOT 

Well... EULA problems I think, but the game is already abandoned so...

[AtomicTech]

16 minutes ago, Aerodynamic Kerbal said:

I feel like we need the 3D files of kerbals themselves, I REALLY REALLY WANT A 3D PRINTED KERBAL THAT LOOKS LIKE A KERBAL AND NOT 

Well... EULA problems I think, but the game is already abandoned so...

I think @JadeOfMaar has a homebrewed Kerbal that you might be able to borrow

[Lisias]

1 hour ago, Aerodynamic Kerbal said:

Well... EULA problems I think, but the game is already abandoned so...

And here we have yet another fellow Kerbonaut caring for the Franchise and not willing to commit to shady practices to reach their goals.

In the mean time, some other without this ethical problem keep (ab)using the EULA and Forum Publishing rules…

Seriously, this Community needs the KSP's Source Code, or it will be shadowed in the long run but these not strictly ethical people - the next step is creating their own Community, what may not be a so distant problem as one would think… (hint: Discord).

[Aerodynamic Kerbal]

21 hours ago, Lisias said:

Seriously, this Community needs the KSP's Source Code

(and the kerbal 3d file)

[Lisias]

38 minutes ago, Aerodynamic Kerbal said:

(and the kerbal 3d file)

Ah, that's the magic: you already have it - but there's no way to access it under EULA and Forum Guidelines.

However, the Fair Use Doctrine says that if something is installed in your computer legally, you are entitled to access it the way you want - what you are not allowed is to redistribute the material, as this would be Copyright Infringement.

So:

• If you had legally bought the game;
• If you find a way to reach the 3d model respecting the EULA and Forum Guidelines;
• If you have the skills to transform the material into something that fits your needs;
  • You can't outsource it, as this will mean you will send IP protected material to 3rd parties to be transformed, and even if that 3rd party had bought the game the same, they would not be able to send you back the changes under EULA.

You can adapt the model to be used on blender and make a video with it - again, you can't redistribute the model neither your derivative, but you can use it on a movie and publish it on Youtube legally, for example.

You will be still subject to a takedown if P.D. doesn't like what you are doing with their Intellectual Property but, really, this is valid for everybody that publishes a video or even a ScreenShot - the work is yours, but the I.P. still belongs to P.D. and if you do something that they consider deleterious to the I.P., they are entitled to ask you to put it down no matter what the material itself is.

So having access to the 3d model by knowing how to access it by reading the Source Code will not give you any unethical edge over anyone else (what's not the same when someone uses shady practices to accomplish that), neither P.D. will lose anything by allowing this to happen legally because, well, people are already doing it on the wild - and without bringing direct benefits to the Franchise, as these works can't be published here on Forum.

[Aerodynamic Kerbal]

9 minutes ago, Lisias said:

Ah, that's the magic: you already have it - but there's no way to access it under EULA and Forum Guidelines.

However, the Fair Use Doctrine says that if something is installed in your computer legally, you are entitled to access it the way you want - what you are not allowed is to redistribute the material, as this would be Copyright Infringement.

So:

• If you had legally bought the game;
• If you find a way to reach the 3d model respecting the EULA and Forum Guidelines;
• If you have the skills to transform the material into something that fits your needs;
  • You can't outsource it, as this will mean you will send IP protected material to 3rd parties to be transformed, and even if that 3rd party had bought the game the same, they would not be able to send you back the changes under EULA.

You can adapt the model to be used on blender and make a video with it - again, you can't redistribute the model neither your derivative, but you can use it on a movie and publish it on Youtube legally, for example.

You will be still subject to a takedown if P.D. doesn't like what you are doing with their Intellectual Property but, really, this is valid for everybody that publishes a video or even a ScreenShot - the work is yours, but the I.P. still belongs to P.D. and if you do something that they consider deleterious to the I.P., they are entitled to ask you to put it down no matter what the material itself is.

So having access to the 3d model by knowing how to access it by reading the Source Code will not give you any unethical edge over anyone else (what's not the same when someone uses shady practices to accomplish that), neither P.D. will lose anything by allowing this to happen legally because, well, people are already doing it on the wild - and without bringing direct benefits to the Franchise, as these works can't be published here on Forum.

So I shouldn't use it for commercial, only for personal use IF I find a way to access it?

[Lisias]

53 minutes ago, Aerodynamic Kerbal said:

So I shouldn't use it for commercial, only for personal use IF I find a way to access it?

Commercial use are, well, "tolerated" - we would not have parodies otherwise (like Star Wars vs Spaceballs).

But, it also bring liabilities to you - Ok, you can try to exploit it commercially, but if you lose a Fair Use claim on a Court, you will pay some damages based on the money you earned on the stunt.

Unless you are willing to make a living from this thing (and, so, will have a budget with money reserved for legalities), I suggest you to avoid commercially exploiting anything you do under the Fair Use. And this includes Patreon and "Donations" - without filing a Section 501(c)(3), you need to even pay taxes over these "Donations". Only Non Profit Organisations can receive Donations, for everybody else the name is "Funding".

[Cytauri]

On 7/4/2023 at 10:13 AM, Aerodynamic Kerbal said:

 

OH MY GOSH WHAT THE HECK HAPPENED TO THAT POOR KERBAL

Also, the source must flow.

[Aerodynamic Kerbal]

10 hours ago, Cytauri said:

OH MY GOSH WHAT THE HECK HAPPENED TO THAT POOR KERBAL

He saw Dres

[WhatALovelyNick]

1 hour ago, Aerodynamic Kerbal said:

He saw Dres

He couldn't. Dres is a lie.

[Royalswissarmyknife]

9 minutes ago, WhatALovelyNick said:

He couldn't. Dres is a lie.

that's what the Kerbal Goverment wants you to think

DRES IS REALLLLL!!!!!!!!!!

[Aerodynamic Kerbal]

1 hour ago, Royalswissarmyknife said:

that's what the Kerbal Goverment wants you to think

DRES IS REALLLLL!!!!!!!!!!

Then why can't I get an intersection with it

[Nazalassa]

2 minutes ago, Aerodynamic Kerbal said:

Then why can't I get an intersection with it

It just has no SOI due to a bug caused by Dres warping the game assets near itself (you know, regular KSP physics...)

[Royalswissarmyknife]

6 minutes ago, Aerodynamic Kerbal said:

Then why can't I get an intersection with it

Skill Issue

[Cytauri]

On 7/12/2023 at 6:28 AM, Royalswissarmyknife said:

Skill Issue

Bug issue 

[darthgently]

On 7/13/2023 at 7:12 PM, Cytauri said:

Bug issue 

Have you matched inclination? Many have gotten intercepts and landed on Dres, I've done it even, so it can be done

Edited July 15, 2023 by darthgently