Parts & Vessels Wobbly rockets

[DancZer]

Generally rockets are pressured gas tanks. Tanks has pressure and wall thickness. Since object does not bend in KSP, technically the wobbling is the only way to add a "bending" of object to the game.

Pressure could wary based on the volume and amount of fuel (not necessary, because they usually fill the tank with another gas to keep the pressure on, but it could be a factor if you wish (probably it shouldn't be linear)).

Thickness could be a parameter for structural parts + fuel tanks, as a tradeoff changing thickness should increase the mass

Decuplers/docking should have strength, which would require more energy as a tradeoff

By adding similar options fo the parts, I think the Struct would not needed at all.

Benefits:

Player has control over it, no tweaking needed form the development side (basically it would be a UX for the player to control what they internally try to achieve)

It would be visible for the player, not like autostruct, which is a bit strange solution

Struct on the vessels are not fancy at all. 

However:

If the struct is the only way, and players intend to use as many of them as they need to have a rigid structure, they will basically makes the ship as one big rigid ship. So technically the wobbling is a matter of time and pain to get rid of by the players with a lot of struct. If that's what players have to do they basically wants rigidity, no matter how the rocket/ship looks like. They don't want simulation of rigidity in the game, no matter what. 

[KerbolExplorer]

I really don't get how the devs see this issue and say "Yeah it's part of what makes Kerbal Kerbal", Like...making a game harder to play just cause is fun?! And considering the scope of the game, making interstellar ships than don't fit in the VAB, with the current philosophy it seems like those would just wobble and break apart.

That's why I like mods like RO, they made the rockets rigid, you can built a 20 meter rocket and it will act as a proper rocket. It's just plain better this way imo.

[S_Coriolis]

Here a suggestion from Kavaeric, instead of wobbling, joints should stay fixed and after too much stress, visually vibrate with metal bending sounds with to then fail spectacularly.
Read more there:

 

[LunarMetis]

Holy Kraken, more than 160 upvotes as of this writing.

Take notes, Nate.

[alexonkerbal]

If it works without struts and superstructures in real life, it should work in Kerbal. There seems to be a dissonant design philosophy caught between "near-realism" when it comes to the KSC, parts, and general art style, but then the physics engine behaves like we are in a Dr. Seuss world.

[AlphaMensae]

10 hours ago, KerbolExplorer said:

I really don't get how the devs see this issue and say "Yeah it's part of what makes Kerbal Kerbal", Like...making a game harder to play just cause is fun?! And considering the scope of the game, making interstellar ships than don't fit in the VAB, with the current philosophy it seems like those would just wobble and break apart.

That's why I like mods like RO, they made the rockets rigid, you can built a 20 meter rocket and it will act as a proper rocket. It's just plain better this way imo.

Way back in the early days of KSP (like the first public release, v0.7.3) in 2011, there were few parts. You had things like a single fuel tank and a single engine...and the tri-coupler. The only way to build a rocket to reach orbit was to make a tri-coupler monstrosity, which would often literally fall apart when you hit the space bar, or shortly afterwards. The game was still very primitive, and this kind of thing was seen as part of its charm...and what Nate seems to be eternally in love with, RO has apparently never happened in his KSP universe.

Edited July 6, 2023 by AlphaMensae

[mattihase]

I remember those days. When getting into orbit was an achievement, those monstrosities were fun, and even when getting to the mun, but after 0.17 and especially after 0.18 and the introduction of docking, I'd say fighting the joints system became more of a chore than anything.

 

Considering the proposed Interstellar scale of KSP2 it's even less welcome a "feature" to have to fight tooth and nail against when designing vessels.

[sym]

Wobbly rockets only works in conjunction with good framerate. As we don't have good framerate with even medium size rockets...

[AmandaHugginkiss]

While I accept that autostrut and/or eliminating all wobble is not "realistic" as far as the physics is concerned, I think it's important to remember first and foremost, this is a game! 

Building ambitious/ridiculous monstrosities is part of what made KSP1 fun and while we all expect and enjoy the occasional explosion, the game needs to be enjoyable. I would mirror those who say that if wobbly rockets were not an issue, autostrut would never have been introduced as a feature. Nor for that matter would it have been  so widely used.

Wobbly rockets are just NOT FUN! Funny to look at, but a hideous barrier as far as gameplay comes.  I think Nate Simpson is missing the point when he says "Wobbly rockets are sometimes fun and funny. A big part of what originally got many of us hooked on the original KSP was the silliness and emergent problem solving that came from playing World of Goo with rocket parts. Broadly, we see this as part of the Kerbal DNA, and want to preserve it in some form. " Yes, they were part of Kerbal DNA, a part that was eliminated as KSP was improved over each subsequent release. KSP1 when released was the plucky outsider, there were problems and there were bugs, the community laughed, because it was the plucky outsider. Wobbly rockets were never fun. We laughed at them, sure, just as we laughed at the Kraken tearing apart our carefully constructed crafts at the end of a 20hr mission. ...but they weren't gameplay features! They were annoying! 

KSP2 is not KSP1. KSP2 launched at £49.99 and had been in pre-production for years. It is no longer the plucky outsider and while it may fall short of AAA status, it's a lot closer than it's predecessor. It should have been playable at launch and my tolerance for these types of bugs is therefore much reduced.  The fact that the entire community is calling out for a fix to this issue should be an indicator to the devs that we do not see this as a feature, nor do we particularly want it as a feature. 

The game should be fun for budding aerospace engineers and casuals alike. KSP core mechanics are what makes it fun. While it should be a challenging game, we are not looking for gritty realism, we are looking for a fun time. 

[wefightforpeace]

wobbly bad

[AlexE]

Wobbly rockets are fine, but only if you make mistakes while building them. A solidly built 0815-Rocket should not wobble like this. Nobody wants to fly into space with wobbly rockets, and it's no fun either. So I am also for an extreme downgrade of the wobble.

[Justasimplepotato]

Reported Version: v0.1.3.2 (latest) | Mods: none | Can replicate without mods? Yes 
OS: Windows 11 home | CPU: AMD Ryzen 7 5700G with Radeon Graphics | GPU: AMD Radeon RX 6700 XT | RAM: 16gb

 

Whenever I have a rocket that is fairly tall (not too tall, but not short, either) my rocket tends to flip during ascent. I believe that this is because of a fairing bug, where wobbly rockets (pls fix soon) cause the rockets COG to move, causing the rocket to flip around wildly. I can fix this using a large amount of huge fins, but it just doesn't look right. Also. can you make fairings solid, because otherwise, wobbly rockets cause the payload to clip through the fairing.

 

Please fix this soon,

A Potato

 

Edited July 24, 2023 by Anth12

[Anth]

@Justasimplepotato Merged your bug report with this one.

[squibonacid]

Joining in: Please fix this, thanks!

[Guest Voltmanderer]

Felipe Falanghe has a really good solution to this in KitBash Model Club. Felipe (AKA HarvesteR) wrote the original code base for the first game himself. Maybe, just maybe, the dev team should contact him and bring him back into the fold on this one, or at least pay him for his ideas. According to HarvesteR in an interview with Matt Lowne, noone from the current dev team has ever made contact with him.

[dandoesstuff]

wobbling the rockets are wobbly the wobbly yes woblbing yes

[almagnus1]

If the rocket is wobbly, it should be because I screwed up the design, not because the game designers think it's "fun".

I can't recommend KSP2 over KSP1 until this issue gets fixed because it renders the game hugely unplayable in the later stages because you absolutely need the really big rockets if you are going to be building anything worthwhile in orbit or offworld.

I'm seriously starting to wonder if the devs never did a Saturn-V type mission and tried to pilot it out of the atmosphere.

[mazer924]

Fix wobbling, it is neither fun nor realistic.

[CorkyTheCactus]

Please fix wobbly rockets.

[CrossTR15_YT]

Reported Version: v0.1.5 (latest) | Mods: none | Can replicate without mods? Yes 
OS: Windows 11 Pro | CPU: Intel Core i5-10500F | GPU: NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1060 6GB | RAM: 32GB

Severity: High

Frequency: High

I made a little space station/ship and I was going to dock another ship to it. Suddenly, it decided to flip and die. 

Included Attachments:

Grabacin2023-10-29141320.mp4

[The Space Peacock]

@Diego_ Moved your report out of the archive (hopefully for the final time!)

 

@CrossTR15_YT merged your report with this one

[The Space Peacock]

@142857 merged your report with this one

 

[142857]

@The Space Peacock, This bug isn't regular wobble , it happens for no reason outside of atmosphere on a very small craft

[The Space Peacock]

37 minutes ago, 142857 said:

This bug isn't regular wobble , it happens for no reason outside of atmosphere on a very small craft

Wobble isnt limited to atmosphere, i can be caused by a range of factors. The common culprits are certain part interactions, oscillations exasturbated by SAS or just the plain old kraken. It can be bad enough to shake a craft appart, as was happening with yours. I'll do some additional testing with your craft to make sure that is indeed whats happening here, but if a craft is shaking itself appart in any way its usually another instance of wobbly rockets. I've fallen victim to it quite a few times myself

Spoiler

If this happens to you again in the future, there is a workaround; reload the craft and immediately pause as soon as it loads. some parts may not be in their correct positions, but it should prevent it from violently shaking itself to pieces

[The Space Peacock]

@142857 added the video you provided to your report