A week in... 10% still playing

[Bej Kerman]

19 minutes ago, Alexoff said:

35 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

K2 has experience and has eloquently explained their reasons for what they said.

As far as I remember, K2's experience allowed him to predict the release of science a month after the appearance of early access.

May I ask what experience you have in the gaming industry (besides mistaking doors for rendering artefacts, of course)?

[TomKerbal]

21 hours ago, Alexoff said:

Well, I seem to have said something stupid with those gates, since I have never been around. But that doesn't mean I've changed my mind. Let's analyze the graphics at maximum settings on my 3070.

Ladders...

  Hide contents

Weird pixelations

Unity indie horror

It is not visible in the picture, but these are moving streaks of light

Layers of the atmosphere

Weird lights

Well, no Kerbol light for us

Well, I can repeat myself - is it worth expecting breakthroughs from developers with such graphics?

 

Of course I don't own a copy! It's the 21st century, only the publisher owns copies of the game, the players own almost nothing!

I think there are a few things that are still seriously wrong with KSP2, but the graphics are definitely not one of them ! Maybe with the exception of Eoloo (or whatever this mini-planet is called - should play KSP2 more often...just very stuck on Juno, the graphics is of course much less good there... and KSP1 with RSS only). It looks like a glass ball

Edited May 1, 2023 by TomKerbal

[caipi]

21 hours ago, Dantheollie said:

The KSP2 section of these forums is essentially at an impasse. Everything that could have been said has been said... to death.

Too bad the devs or their PR/Community Managers aren't really engaging in a conversation on how to improve the game. Because - and I said that before on various occasions - the game doesn't just have a performance and content problem, which might be expected in an alpha/EA. More to the point, it has a disimprovement problem. So many things are worse than in KSP1 and instead of acknowledging anything, all we see are their "everything is fine, these are not the droids you are looking for"-PR statements* and new disimprovements (like that maneuver planning thingy which is restricted to current dV).

This game - and by that I mean KSP1 - has always had such a great community. Why not use it and listen to it? Why ignore them completely and develop a game with a narrow-minded intention to just fit the playstyle of the developers?

This game was always about being a very flexible sandbox, which could easily be shaped for everybody's joy and taste. Why limit it the way they are doing it right now?

I still think they should scrap the current game, use KSP1 as base (they have the rights to use it, don't they?), port it to the latest unity engine, make changes to the graphics, physics engine, etc. pp.  to improve the performance and style of the game. Add various popular mods (or at least their function) to the base game to make the game even more versatile. Add colonies and other solar systems/interstellar travel, and scrap multiplayer. It's a niche aspect that will cause more headache than its worth - unless they implement it right from the beginning. And then put a KSP2 sticker on that. That would be commercially more successful than whatever mess they are trying to create right now, in my humble opinion.

 

/edit: *Trying to control the narrative, not engaging in conversations, and trying to make everyone believe something by just simply repeating a story over and over seems to be quite popular these days, unfortunately. But unfortunately, also successful way too often. :-/ I'm sure the devs (or somebody else) will find a scapegoat to blame for the bad reviews/sales numbers after the KSP2 Release...

Edited May 1, 2023 by caipi

[Bej Kerman]

9 minutes ago, caipi said:

I still think they should scrap the current game, use KSP1 as base (they have the rights to use it, don't they?), port it to the latest unity engine, make changes to the graphics, physics engine, etc. pp.  to improve the performance and style of the game.

KSP 2 was literally made to avoid all the crap KSP 1 is plagued with by virtue of running off a horrible amateur codebase from 2011.

[TomKerbal]

14 minutes ago, caipi said:

Too bad the devs or their PR/Community Managers aren't really engaging in a conversation on how to improve the game. Because - and I said that before on various occasions - the game doesn't just have a performance and content problem, which might be expected in an alpha/EA. More to the point, it has a disimprovement problem. So many things are worse than in KSP1 and instead of acknowledging anything, all we see are their "everything is fine, these are not the droids you are looking for"-PR statements and new disimprovements (like that maneuver planning thingy which is restricted to current dV).

This game - and by that I mean KSP1 - has always had such a great community. Why not use it and listen to it? Why ignore them completely and develop a game with a narrow-minded intention to just fit the playstyle of the developers?

This game was always about being a very flexible sandbox, which could easily be shaped for everybody's joy and taste. Why limit it the way they are doing it right now?

I still think they should scrap the current game, use KSP1 as base (they have the rights to use it, don't they?), port it to the latest unity engine, make changes to the graphics, physics engine, etc. pp.  to improve the performance and style of the game. Add various popular mods (or at least their function) to the base game to make the game even more versatile. Add colonies and other solar systems/interstellar travel, and scrap multiplayer. It's a niche aspect that will cause more headache than its worth - unless they implement it right from the beginning. And then put a KSP2 sticker on that. That would be commercially more successful than whatever mess they are trying to create right now, in my humble opinion.

Ah, that's would be nice, but it is not the way money is made... earned (sorry for my english). Since I am a little bit older perhaps I don't like the permanet trying of the wheels reinventions often leading to more bad than better things. But a completly new product will sell much better (and can be more expensive) than another dll.  I for one really like to repair and reuse things and really appreciate the tried and true. But of course, innovations sometimes bring a lot of progress, I see that too. You have to find an ideal middle ground (?), I think.

Edited May 1, 2023 by TomKerbal

[Bej Kerman]

11 minutes ago, caipi said:

Why not use it and listen to it?

To put it nicely, because next to nobody on this forum is fit to be giving development-oriented suggestions, and in addition the team is not deleting the last five years of progress to work on KSP 1's dated codebase for some "power to the users" gorm.

[DunaManiac]

Just now, Bej Kerman said:

KSP 2 was literally made to avoid all the crap KSP 1 is plagued with by virtue of running off a horrible amateur codebase from 2011.

The question is: is it succeeding?

KSP2's code is in bad shape, that's undeniable. Are a lot of things worse than KSP1? Arguably yes. Has it failed to meet its promises? So far. Does what KSP2 has to offer better than KSP1 could do with mods and/or further development? I don't think so.

[dr.phees]

> Why ignore them completely and develop a game with a narrow-minded intention to just fit the playstyle of the developers?

> all we see are their "everything is fine, these are not the droids you are looking for"-PR statements*

Sadly, this characterizes pretty much all I get from KSP 2, currently. I still very much doubt this will come even close to KSP 1 with mods, which a KSP successor clearly should. The lack of interaction and lack of acknowledgement of the serious flaws in KPS 2 are a big red flag.

[Bej Kerman]

2 minutes ago, DunaManiac said:

Does what KSP2 has to offer better than KSP1 could do with mods and/or further development? I don't think so.

I've never seen any mods that have fixed the god-awful UI and attempts at running interstellar modpacks just lead to the usual crashes or save corruptions when trying to mount these missions. KSP 2 on day one was similar, but after a few patches I've been able to cruise around without finding part modules missing or anything, and mission-breaking bugs tend to fix themselves after a reload. The developers are here and are fixing bugs, which I couldn't say for Squad. KSP 2 just came out and I can confidently say the stability has gone up more than I've ever seen KSP 1 do over the course of 1-2 patches.

7 minutes ago, dr.phees said:

I still very much doubt this will come even close to KSP 1 with mods

Mods fundamentally suck. Sorry, but even having thousands of mods provided for free, it's still a high price to pay for a fractured experience with no sole dev team to consult when things go awry.

8 minutes ago, dr.phees said:

all we see are their "everything is fine, these are not the droids you are looking for"-PR statements*

 You are absolutely free to ignore their acknowledgement of the bugs and the fact they've went on to kill many of them.

[caipi]

9 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

To put it nicely, because next to nobody on this forum is fit to be giving development-oriented suggestions

  Wait, are you saying users aren't fit to say what they like and dislike? That the removal of the part window is a bad idea? Are you saying that the users aren't fit to know what they want? Wait, I've heard that before. Where was it...?

9 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

and in addition the team is not deleting the last five years of progress to work on KSP 1's dated codebase for some "power to the users" gorm.

So, stubborness is your argument here? Seriously, how often have we in KSP dismissed an entire concept and recreated something entirely new? And ended up with better results? Surely, this concept cannot be lost on the devs, can it? I mean sometimes you just develop something into a direction that leads nowhere (except of course into a collossal implosion, which ironically this game is all about and where they are heading. So Mission achieved? xD).

3 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

 You are absolutely free to ignore their acknowledgement of the bugs and the fact they've went on to kill many of them.

A: He was quoting me. B: You are taking this statement, which he agreed on, out of context. Which was that this game has more severe issues than just bugs.

To quote myself: Because - and I said that before on various occasions - the game doesn't just have a performance and content problem, which might be expected in an alpha/EA. More to the point, it has a disimprovement problem. So many things are worse than in KSP1 and instead of acknowledging anything, all we see are their "everything is fine, these are not the droids you are looking for"-PR statements*

 

Thanks for trying to control the narrative of negative feedback/criticism. Thanks, next. *ignored in the future*

[Bej Kerman]

2 minutes ago, caipi said:

Wait, are you saying users aren't fit to say what they like and dislike?

I'll spell it out then. Building off of KSP 1's codebase is a stupid idea, and when 98% of the forum is stupid ideas like this or people who do not understand development then it's no wonder the team isn't taking advice on the backend of things when forum-goers think it's a good idea trying to shoehorn interstellar into a game that mods demonstrate isn't fit for such features.

4 minutes ago, caipi said:

So, refusing to use an decade-old codebase for interstellar when it already struggles at interplanetary your argument here?

Yes, despite the fact you label it "stubbornness". KSP 2 benefits a lot from Unity features KSP 1 didn't get just through updating.

[Scarecrow71]

47 minutes ago, TomKerbal said:

I think there are a few things that are still seriously wrong with KSP2, but the graphics are definitely not one of them !

I disagree.  Nothing I've seen in the game makes me think that the graphics are better.  Sure, planets look nice from space...but every landing I've been able to do has resulted in being on a flat piece of land that has no contours or color.

9 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

I've never seen any mods that have fixed the god-awful UI

You haven't looked hard enough then.  There are multiple mods (a simple search should do you fine here) that change up the UI.

9 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

Mods fundamentally suck. Sorry, but even having thousands of mods provided for free, it's still a high price to pay for a fractured experience with no sole dev team to consult when things go awry.

For starters, this is your own opinion and not the opinion of every person on the forum.  Which makes you neither right nor wrong; your opinion is your opinion and you are entitled to it, provided you aren't speaking for anyone but yourself.

As far as not having a dev team when things go awry...that is patently wrong.  Most mods have someone dedicated to fixing bugs that crop up; all you need to do is go into the mod subforum, find the mod in question, check the thread and, if you can't find an answer, go to GitHub and log an issue.

19 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

because next to nobody on this forum is fit to be giving development-oriented suggestions,

Again, this is patently wrong.  A lot of us have development experience.  Perhaps not game development experience, but certainly software/database/hardware development experience.  And the people who are modding the game right now are certainly knee-deep in the code and should absolutely be giving their input on what they are finding.

[cocoscacao]

12 minutes ago, caipi said:

More to the point, it has a disimprovement problem

Eh. Can you elaborate further? 

[Bej Kerman]

Just now, Scarecrow71 said:

You haven't looked hard enough then.

1 minute ago, Scarecrow71 said:

that is patently wrong

1 minute ago, Scarecrow71 said:

Again, this is patently wrong.

In your opinion. 

[Meecrob]

2 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

I'll spell it out then. Building off of KSP 1's codebase is a stupid idea, and when 98% of the forum is stupid ideas like this.

You cannot say this when IG specifically says they want feedback. Also, your bias is showing when you call 98% of ideas from the forum "stupid."

 

[Bej Kerman]

Just now, Meecrob said:

7 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

I'll spell it out then. Building off of KSP 1's codebase is a stupid idea, and when 98% of the forum is stupid ideas like this.

You cannot say this when IG specifically says they want feedback.

So you're saying you think IG never cared about feedback as long as they're not taking advice like "build your game on a codebase that is literally unfit for its own purpose"?

[dr.phees]

24 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

I've never seen any mods that have fixed the god-awful UI and attempts at running interstellar modpacks just lead to the usual crashes or save corruptions when trying to mount these missions. KSP 2 on day one was similar, but after a few patches I've been able to cruise around without finding part modules missing or anything, and mission-breaking bugs tend to fix themselves after a reload. The developers are here and are fixing bugs, which I couldn't say for Squad. KSP 2 just came out and I can confidently say the stability has gone up more than I've ever seen KSP 1 do over the course of 1-2 patches.

Mods fundamentally suck. Sorry, but even having thousands of mods provided for free, it's still a high price to pay for a fractured experience with no sole dev team to consult when things go awry.

 You are absolutely free to ignore their acknowledgement of the bugs and the fact they've went on to kill many of them.

Quoting correctly isn't your thing, right? Try to find out who posted what and only then comment on it.

[Bej Kerman]

1 minute ago, dr.phees said:

Quoting correctly isn't your thing, right? Try to find out who posted what and only then comment on it.

Noted.

[Meecrob]

3 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

So you're saying you think IG never cared about feedback as long as they're not taking advice like "build your game on a codebase that is literally unfit for its own purpose"?

Buddy, calm down. You are putting words in my mouth. Just because I disagree with you having a very low opinion of fellow community members doesn't mean I agree that they should refurbish KSP1's codebase.

 

My point is that IG asked for feedback. In fact, that's what they tried to sell the whole EA release on. You might have the opinion that the forums have bad suggestions...the problem is that according to official releases from IG, they disagree with you.

[Alexoff]

1 hour ago, Bej Kerman said:

May I ask what experience you have in the gaming industry (besides mistaking doors for rendering artefacts, of course)?

I have a lot of experience watching franchises collapse. And I also have a lot of experience working with people who say more than they do.

[DunaManiac]

10 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

Mods fundamentally suck. Sorry, but even having thousands of mods provided for free, it's still a high price to pay for a fractured experience with no sole dev team to consult when things go awry.

I don't think that's the case. Take KSP1's EVE/Scatterer mods that provide comparable (if not better, but solely my opinion) visuals to KSP2. On my machine I can run Spectra with a NVIDIA GT 710 at about 15-25 fps, which I suppose isn't optimal but I've gotten used to it. It's very old, but some people don't have the financial means to buy the newest graphics card to play games. However, the minimum specs for KSP2 is a GTX 1070, currently on the market for approximately $400. So we're looking at worse performance for equivalent or worse (subjectively) visuals.

18 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

The developers are here and are fixing bugs, which I couldn't say for Squad.

 

You forget that Squad has been around here for a lot longer then Intercept has been.

[Scarecrow71]

11 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

In your opinion. 

No, not in my opinion.  There ARE mods that change the UI.  There ARE people dedicated to correcting issues that exist in said mods.  And there ARE people here on the forums qualified to give development advice.

[Alexoff]

34 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

Mods fundamentally suck.

This is only if the game does not provide other options. There are not enough options in KSP2. And also in KSP1, many updates were actually the implementation of well-known mods into the game. If these mods did not exist, the game would not exist in the form that we know today either.

Edited May 1, 2023 by Alexoff

[caipi]

4 minutes ago, cocoscacao said:

Eh. Can you elaborate further? 

Again? Well, just a few from the top of my head:

Missing part windows (yes, I see the point of a part manager or resource manager, but they should be in addition, not a complete replacement)

Fuel Transfer and the way it works in the resource manager

essentially removal of asparagus staging by: (a) not being able to separate symmetry parts from each other (remember, no part window) and (b) not being able to separate symmetry added parts in the stage manager (right side, try separating two decouplers that were added at once into two stages - unless they fixed that and it wasn't a design choice. I refunded my copy and haven't played the latest patch)

removal of being able to set fuel flow priority

the entire UI (so many little things, but also big things, like the size of the UI and it not being adjustable - for now, admittedly, but that's just the size).

restricting maneuver planning to current dV

no money planned for career mode

Part manager being a nightmare and becoming very confusing with large part counts

 

Those are just from the top of my head, a few things I noticed when I was testing KSP2. Which was like what, 2 months ago? This list is by no means complete. If you want further examples, I'm sure there are a lot of them all over this forum - not just in this thread. As Dantheollie said: Everything that can be said, has been said.

 

[cocoscacao]

2 minutes ago, caipi said:

Again? Well, just a few from the top of my head

Maybe I wasn't going back enough.

PM is still a topic of discussion according to Nate. I hate it more and more with each passing day, tbh.

Symmetry stuff, agreed as of now, but there's no mention if it is going to stay that way. 

dV restriction while planning will be changed.

Career mode... I can't answer that without bias, since I never cared much about it. I am curious what Adventure mode will include though.