Week One Adventures

[TheArturro]

2 hours ago, BmB said:

Yet good companies do push out hotfixes for critical issues within sometimes a few hours or days.

Are you a software developer @BmB? A QA tester?

Everything you say in this thread only shows that you have no idea about anything related to software development. Which is OK - we're players not devs. But just like devs are not telling us how to play, let's not tell them how to do their job.

[Haustvindr]

3 hours ago, BmB said:

Yet good companies do push out hotfixes for critical issues within sometimes a few hours or days.

That's not really true, and you should not believe that. When games goes "gold", they freeze everything for the distribution in several media, i.e. they stop working in that build. Then, and because they know they have still issues, begin to work to have a patch ready for the day of the launch (day zero, does it ring a bell?). If I am to believe my memory, I've read that between going gold and release day it can take around a month or more, but I guess in full digital distribution it might be a little less.

That's one month companies gives themselves to patch their "full" games, and sometimes it is far from enough. So much for "good" companies eh.

Hours vs. weeks. Not the same at all.

[RocketBoy1641]

4 hours ago, BmB said:

The VAB does not work, it often breaks. Many times your flights will be destroyed by bugs, sometimes you can't launch, sometimes you can't save or load. And yes, there are crashes. The game is basically non-functional.

You *DO* know that a 0.1 release means Beta???

You *DO* know that EA means Beta???

So, how many betas have you provided *GOOD* and *ACTIONABLE* feedback for?

[Snark]

Some content has been redacted and/or removed.  Folks, please don't make things personal.  This means it's not appropriate to criticize a person's attitude or behavior (no matter how unreasonable you think they are), and it's not appropriate to use demeaning or insulting language about people just because they happen not to agree with you.

Ideally, every argument could be settled in amicable fashion by people having civil discussion, with appropriate citations as needed (evidence, relevant expertise, etc.)  In the ideal case, if someone has a wrong idea, then presenting reasonable evidence that they're wrong would change their mind.  They'd be happy to get a better understanding of how things work, and everyone wins.

Alas (surprise surprise) we do not live in an ideal world, and it rarely works out that way.    Sometimes a person just won't budge from their position.  Yes, even if they don't actually have any evidence or relevant experience.  Yes, even when presented with evidence or relevant expertise to the contrary.  You could say "that's unreasonable," and you wouldn't necessarily be wrong... but people have opinions and sometimes you can't budge them.  It is not helpful to get angry or dismissive when you can't persuade someone to change their opinion.  That won't persuade them, and it will likely just make them more stubborn.

Accordingly, please take it down a notch, folks.  Some people are going to have ideas that you're convinced are very wrong, and are going to be stubborn about it.  You can counter-argue, if you feel like it, but you can't force them to change their mind.  But making it irate and personal solves nothing, and personal remarks are not allowed.

Thank you for your understanding.

 

[The Aziz]

45 minutes ago, Haustvindr said:

If I am to believe my memory, I've read that between going gold and release day it can take around a month or more, but I guess in full digital distribution it might be a little less.

I've seen games, really big games, going gold within 2 weeks before release. So yeah.

[Lisias]

3 hours ago, TheArturro said:

Are you a software developer @BmB? A QA tester?

No. They are a really frustrated user that really love the game and are losing the hope and doing whatever they can in a less than ideal attempt to get heard in the hopes this could change something.

They need someone to hear them and to explain to them why things may not be so bad as it appears, why the people they think is the responsible for the mess may not be and, so, they are only making things more harsher for the dev that they need to be - what ends up increasing the risks of things going to the south. Something that I'm almost sure it's not what's they want, because - look - they didn't asked for the refund, they are yelling for the fix!

Dude, this Fellow Kerbonaut didn't asked for a refund. They are fighting for something they want badly, and bickering with them will not improve things - au countraire, will cement the conviction that the ship is going to capsize.

They need someone to talk with them acknowledging where they are right, where they are wrong, in a way that doesn't sounds like a spin doctor hired to save the Company's face on the Internet.

You don't ask a paying customer "Are you a dev? A QA tester?", this never ends well. Sooner or later the dude will be, and so they will chew you and your team to their colleagues on the field, trashing the company's reputation - and when not, they will just give you the finger, taking their money back and giving it to your competition.

While telling everybody why they decided to do so.

Do you want this game to succeed or not?

[attosecond]

On 3/3/2023 at 2:40 PM, Nate Simpson said:

We appreciate your patience as we continue to bring improvements to the game, and we thank you for your help in continuing to identify bugs and report them to us via our Customer Support page.

@Nate Simpsonthank you for the transparency - those of us who have participated in beta programs before understand that there are processes in place to turn feedback into action, and that it takes variable amounts of person-hours to root out and squash each bug found. Perhaps this has been requested before, but I'm far too lazy to read through every post, so I'll make the following suggestion/request:

Please consider providing a community update on current activities on a set cadence - once per week, for example. Here's the part I'd like to stress: publish your intent to update weekly (or bi-weekly, or whatever) and stick to that schedule. Make the post with your intended schedule sticky at the top of a sub-forum. Much of the angst expressed in the forums would be alleviated, I think (or hope), with regular updates on what's currently on your big blackboard of stuff to do. Details with timelines are obviously a mistake, but a running list of current tasks with no timelines seems appropriate. The important piece is keeping the communications flowing. 

[The Aziz]

Well, some news are coming tomorrow so it turns out they're sticking to weekly comms. Whatever it's going to be.

[croviking]

2 hours ago, Lisias said:

No. They are a really frustrated user that really love the game and are losing the hope and doing whatever they can in a less than ideal attempt to get heard in the hopes this could change something.

They need someone to hear them and to explain to them why things may not be so bad as it appears, why the people they think is the responsible for the mess may not be and, so, they are only making things more harsher for the dev that they need to be - what ends up increasing the risks of things going to the south. Something that I'm almost sure it's not what's they want, because - look - they didn't asked for the refund, they are yelling for the fix!

Dude, this Fellow Kerbonaut didn't asked for a refund. They are fighting for something they want badly, and bickering with them will not improve things - au countraire, will cement the conviction that the ship is going to capsize.

They need someone to talk with them acknowledging where they are right, where they are wrong, in a way that doesn't sounds like a spin doctor hired to save the Company's face on the Internet.

You don't ask a paying customer "Are you a dev? A QA tester?", this never ends well. Sooner or later the dude will be, and so they will chew you and your team to their colleagues on the field, trashing the company's reputation - and when not, they will just give you the finger, taking their money back and giving it to your competition.

While telling everybody why they decided to do so.

Do you want this game to succeed or not?

Yes, I want this game to succeed, that's why I bought it KNOWING WELL IN ADVANCE that it is going to be Early Access, so I didn't expect half the things to work, and was not disappointed. I knew exactly what I signed up. I'm having a lot of fun just enjoying the Kerbal way of doing this and it's epic. It's exactly what KSP 2 was supposed to be. Following all the official announcements I was well informed of what to expect. The team has been open and transparent the whole time.

I don't know what announcement channels were you and Fellow Kerbonaout reading, but somehow you expected a fully functional game at launch even though for months everything was pointing towards a buggy early release but we get to jump on the early rocket and we get to help fixing it.
What gives you any impression that the developer team doesn't want those fixes just as badly as the rest of us do? Because obviously you think they have no clue what state the game is in and somehow, magically your screaming will fix things? When the bug fixes come out you get to say "yeah, because we told them to fix that"?

Apart from some glitches and misoptimizations, we got a completely rebuilt Kerbol system and rockets we can build today to explore it and modders get to start working on the amazing things they do - for you unproductive screamers. Thank you for your valuable insight. We should all send the money to you guys because your screaming is what makes the game run better.

[RaccoonRonin]

9 minutes ago, croviking said:

Yes, I want this game to succeed, that's why I bought it KNOWING WELL IN ADVANCE that it is going to be Early Access, so I didn't expect half the things to work, and was not disappointed. I knew exactly what I signed up. I'm having a lot of fun just enjoying the Kerbal way of doing this and it's epic. It's exactly what KSP 2 was supposed to be. Following all the official announcements I was well informed of what to expect. The team has been open and transparent the whole time.

I really, really can't see how you actually believe everything was open and transparent. I think the game is rather far behind most EA games on launch in terms of a fully operable game. It's not that most people that have an idea about how betas and EA work are upset that it's not "fully functional" but rather that for many, its barely functional at all. Wobbly rockets, performance, camera drifting from craft mid flight, decoupler bugs, etc etc. You and a lot of others may be having fun because you managed your own expectations in a more reserved way, or just aren't having the same bugs, but in my opinion, unless you were really wary or maybe had some inside knowledge before release, you couldn't have known it was going to be so difficult for so many to even test some of the major bugs, because other bugs are blocking them from even progressing beyond building a model rocket. 

 

[m4inbrain]

Bit torn on this one, i'll be honest. 

On one hand, of course any information is appreciated, the launch as we know didn't go very well - so as much as anyone else, i want to soak up information as to when and how the game becomes what it's supposed to be. So in that regard, yay Nate, cheers for that.

But there's a second side to that medal: very clearly it has been stated that the patch takes so long due to vigorous testing. Something i actually very much doubt after the statements that KSP2 was delayed for over a year for "polish" to then release as something that can reasonably called "quite a mess". More importantly though, if this patch finally arrives and it breaks things in a quite obvious way or for systems that are fundamental to the  game, i'm not quite sure where "we" go from there. 

As an example, orbits. As we know, orbits are a bit in an odd place right now - and there really isn't an excuse to miss that. It's fundamental to the gameplay - if you play KSP2, you have to do orbital stuff eventually. So missing the decaying orbits (or as another example, docking ports creating drag behind a nose cone etc) in a game that was delayed for polish, or QA tested, i don't know Jim. 

Sure, if the game breaks after some obscure krakenhunting, as in trying to intentionally break the physics etc - eh. It's what it is, i don't expect Devs to spend as much time on trying to break the game as Stratzenblitz does - but if it's fundamental stuff, .. yeah, i can see how this can become a "make or break" moment for the game, and Nates post basically puts a gun on his chest. 

Personally i'm fine with where the game's at - i played for a whopping hour, and then continued Hogwarts/Roguetech for the last week or two. Yeah it sucks that it got released this way, but i'm not going to lose sleep over it. What is important to me though is how they move from here, and how they present themselves. Nates post does raise hope - but actions are louder than words. If the next patch is a good addition, great, worth waiting for - if it's yet another mess, it's going to be pretty hard to explain/justify that away. 

Edited March 10, 2023 by m4inbrain

[BmB]

Early Access is, once again, NO EXCUSE.

Early Access games must still be working games.

If this was a closed alpha I'd say whatever.

But this is a finished product that costs 50€.

Stop using that excrementsty excuse.

21 hours ago, Rits said:

CP2077 was not recalled, no platform besides play station stopped selling the game due to its un-playability. Not even steam

So it was recalled. On Steam, Batman Arkham Knight was recalled, and that was way more functional than this is.

[Wyleg]

Game works. You can launch it, build a spacecraft, plane, rover, and use it. Fly somewhere else, land on another planet etc. Game is playable.

[pandaman]

3 minutes ago, BmB said:

Early Access is, once again, NO EXCUSE.

Early Access games must still be working games.

If this was a closed alpha I'd say whatever.

But this is a finished product that costs 50€.

Stop using that excrementsty excuse.

Sorry, but it never claimed to be 'finished product'.

Yes $50 feels a bit steep for what we currently have, but that is a different issue.

However, it does 'work', and it is certainly playable, as many others have proved far better than I can given my sub optimal hardware (but it is still playable).

 

[BmB]

By releasing in Steam Early Access for 50€ it did make that claim, it's implicit to the platform.

[snip]

Edited March 10, 2023 by Vanamonde

[dragonart777]

i am glad there is some people left with some hope.   i been fighting and backing them up in forums.  never got a refund  i pulled 89 hours in gameplay.  and check and follow ksp2 channels every day most the day.   hoping to read something that came from the devs.  or see a update in my steam.   but  this last 2 days.  i just falling down.  and really just do not feel the ksp2 power.  i feel like i am losing hope.  what if they or leaving us.   i never had a game that does not communicate with there buyers like this.   don't say discord  cause i am a discord user   and  i gone into there discord asking for help and no one would respond to me.   but that is ok  cause i asked for help all damn day in there and nothing. they talk but they don't care to answer simple questions.   yea that made me so mad.  i just kind of quit after that one.   i love ksp  i am a big fan of it.  but  i do not know.   feels like meeting your fav sanger and they stick there nose up at you as they pass by.   yea what ever.  look i hope they do something but into i see some kind of action i guess i should just stand down drop my weapons' and pray this is not the end.   i am not going to bash  on ksp2.. i holding on to this last string  but  i just  yea  i don't know really what to say atm besides  wish us all luck.  

[Wyleg]

5 hours ago, BmB said:

By releasing in Steam Early Access for 50€ it did make that claim, it's implicit to the platform.

Sorry, I'm not that obsessed with excrements, so can not make that comparsion. Game is buggy, yes, but it's also playable.

And label "Early Access" is more telling than any imaginary implications.

Edited March 10, 2023 by Vanamonde

[BmB]

Once again, Steam Early Access means a finished product.

[razark]

So why are so many finished games not Early Access?

[Wyleg]

11 minutes ago, BmB said:

Once again, Steam Early Access means a finished product.

https://partner.steamgames.com/doc/store/earlyaccess

Quote

Don't launch in Early Access if you are finished with development. If you have all your gameplay defined already and are just looking for final bug testing, then Early Access isn’t right for you. You’ll probably want to send out some keys to fans or do more internal playtesting instead. Early Access is intended as a place where customers can impact the final game.

Bro, you just couldn't get your logic more wrong even if you tried.

Edited March 10, 2023 by Wyleg

[captainradish]

Early Access is supposed to be used when you have the entire skeleton of your game in place but want community input on the rest. That's what Workers and Resources Soviet Republic does, for example. It's supposed to be in an advanced Beta state. What we got was not that.

At the same time don't forget that first impressions are important. What we got was a very bad first impression of a game that was *technically* functional but certainly not very feature complete.

[razark]

Can you define what you mean by "finished" when used in the context of Early Access?

[captainradish]

Having the basic superstructure of your game in place. In the context of KSP2 to already have the promised colonization and interstellar travel in place just in a possibly primitive or incomplete state. What we have right now is a bit of a tech demo. Admittedly W&R is not the best example of EA (despite being an excellent game) as the devs keep rolling out new features (water, courts, garbage, etc) but the basic fundamentals of the game have remained unchanged since the first release.

Edited March 10, 2023 by captainradish

[BmB]

I will say I'm fine with it being just sandbox mode with a limited selection of parts right now, it's the game breaking bugs that are the issue.

[attosecond]

From the link that @Wylegposted, words about EA directly from Steam:

"Early Access is a place for games that are in a playable alpha or beta state, are worth the current value of the playable build, and that you plan to continue to develop for release."

Is KSP2 worth $50 in its current state? Debatable. 

Is KSP2 in a playable alpha or beta state? Yes.