Bought the game - Instant Regret - i hope this is a joke

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

2 hours ago, Moons said:

i doubt they needed the communmity to find those bugs

There are a few interesting posts by people who suggested that they actually don't need the feedback.  That they did know the exact state of the game... And had to release it anyway. 

That the patch coming out is only ancillarily related to anything reported by the players - but is actually the same part of the development cycle that they anticipated needing to introduce after being told to release as EA on the 24th no matter what.  If true, the devs are taking it on the chin and driving forward with the plan - when the real hiccup was being told to pivot and put together a EA package. 

[Casellina X]

55 minutes ago, Wheehaw Kerman said:

Just to be clear, you’re saying that $50 is a steep price?

Depending on financial ability, expectations about KSP2, and understanding of the concept of "Early Access", $50 is K2 levels of steep. For various reasons I don't agree with it being a steep price, but I understand why some see it that way.

[Vanamonde]

Some comments removed. Please make it less personal and stick to the subject. 

[cocoscacao]

Games are generally cheap commodity, if you're buying what you're going to play. Imagine how much $ per hour costed an average player of, say, Age of Empires 2, that bought it 20 years ago....

[Wheehaw Kerman]

2 minutes ago, Casellina X said:

Depending on financial ability, expectations about KSP2, and understanding of the concept of "Early Access", $50 is K2 levels of steep. For various reasons I don't agree with it being a steep price, but I understand why some see it that way.

Thing is, two of the three things you mentioned are  not on the same level as the other one.  You don’t want to cast shade at people over socioeconomic status, but “fifty bucks is too much/a lot of money” isn’t convincing for anybody for whom it isn’t.  It’s a purely subjective argument that disqualifies them in the eyes of unsympathetic people whose allowance has always been too high.  And only the most sympathetic of the rest of us care if they can afford the game or not.

As for their hopes about KSP2 and lack of comprehension of EA, the roadmap is a crystal clear indication of what we were not getting, and there was a ton of information put out before launch of what we were getting, bugs and all.  I’m less sympathetic to failure to pay attention and manage expectations…

[Casellina X]

19 minutes ago, Wheehaw Kerman said:

Thing is, two of the three things you mentioned are  not on the same level as the other one.  You don’t want to cast shade at people over socioeconomic status, but “fifty bucks is too much/a lot of money” isn’t convincing for anybody for whom it isn’t.  It’s a purely subjective argument that disqualifies them in the eyes of unsympathetic people whose allowance has always been too high.  And only the most sympathetic of the rest of us care if they can afford the game or not.

As for their hopes about KSP2 and lack of comprehension of EA, the roadmap is a crystal clear indication of what we were not getting, and there was a ton of information put out before launch of what we were getting, bugs and all.  I’m less sympathetic to failure to pay attention and manage expectations…

Trust me, I get where you're coming from. I've said in another thread my thoughts on the price (expect $50 to become $70 at the 1.0 release).

[adsii1970]

56 minutes ago, cocoscacao said:

Games are generally cheap commodity, if you're buying what you're going to play. Imagine how much $ per hour costed an average player of, say, Age of Empires 2, that bought it 20 years ago....

Yep. When I first purchased the original KSP, it was a Steam "Green Light" studio game - an early release from an indy studio at an amazingly low price of $5.99. At that time, it was version 0.24 and it was sometime around 2012/2013 maybe? I still play the game and have around 6k hours in it. So, if I consider my time of enjoyment as 5700 hours (a low estimate), the enjoyment value of the game far exceeds the price (the cost value is $0.00105 per hour). And in all honestly, KSP is not the oldest game in my Steam account. I have SimCity 4, Tropico 3, Cities:Skylines, and a few other games I regularly play - and a few of those games are approaching the 20 year+ mark. Their cost value would be even lower but their enjoyment value cannot be measured.

I imagine that when KSP2 is finished, we will see cost value will eventually work out the same. KSP2 is an early access game. It's gonna have bugs. Updates will solve old bugs and introduce whole new bugs. It's part of the early access process. Yes, it's worth the $50.00 because in the end, we will get a lot more out of it. KSP2, like KSP1, will become a legacy game once it is completed. It will be worth the ride.

[Alexoff]

41 minutes ago, Casellina X said:

Trust me, I get where you're coming from. I've said in another thread my thoughts on the price (expect $50 to become $70 at the 1.0 release).

or maybe 20$ at the Christmas sale

[cocoscacao]

13 minutes ago, adsii1970 said:

6k hours in it. So, if I consider my time of enjoyment as 5700 hours

And the remaining 300 hours consisted of what? 

[mcwaffles2003]

6 hours ago, Moons said:

The complaints in my thread are perfectly reasonable

In a similar fashion to a person approaching a dark room with people telling them to watch out they'll bump into a bunch of things in there and then offer up a flashlight  to the new guest to which they respond with "I'll be fine" and proceed to dash into the room head first only to come back out exclaiming "Owww! the room has a bunch of obstacles in it."

We know and the entire forum has been yelling that since day 1.

Yes, we know there are bugs, we've worked around them for now and many of them are avoidable or easily mitigated when you do. If you work to neither avoid or mitigate them then yes, you will have a bad time. Congrats *thumbs up*

Edited March 13, 2023 by mcwaffles2003

[Moons]

4 minutes ago, mcwaffles2003 said:

In a similar fashion to a person approaching a dark room with people telling you to watch out you'll bump into a bunch of things in there and then offer you a flashlight to which they respond with "I'll be fine" and proceed to dash into the room head first only to come back out exclaiming the room has a bunch of obstacles in it. 

 

Yes, we know there are bugs, we've worked around them for now and many of them are avoidable or easily mitigated when you do. If you work to neither avoid or mitigate them then yes, you will have a bad time. Congrats

Wow thats a pretty bad comparison. Also do you have no standards and expectations when you purchase a product?

Edited March 13, 2023 by Moons

[mcwaffles2003]

Just now, Moons said:

Wow thats a pretty bad analogy.

Seems pretty good from the perspective of a person on a 1650 mobile who's had a good time and avoided almost every issue you brought up cause I listened to the people around me... 

Ymmv

[Moons]

3 minutes ago, mcwaffles2003 said:

Seems pretty good from the perspective of a person on a 1650 mobile who's had a good time and avoided almost every issue you brought up cause I listened to the people around me... 

Ymmv

Yeah its not

This is a paid product not some F2P open beta. Out of interrest - so from your point of view - there is no state this game could be in that would be unacceptable to you since you can always avoid the problems/bugs by reading hundreds of threads and doing nothing that could trigger a bug and maybe simply buy and not play it until a patch?

 

Also i am sorry - i would bet money that you have had lots of bugs - most of the bugs arent avoidable - okay maybe if you just do very limited things.

Edited March 13, 2023 by Moons

[mcwaffles2003]

Just now, Moons said:

Yeah its not

This is a paid product not some F2P open beta.

Well maybe listen to the community... You were made well aware of its state, its hilarious anyone could be shocked still

[Moons]

2 minutes ago, mcwaffles2003 said:

Well maybe listen to the community... You were made well aware of its state, its hilarious anyone could be shocked still

No its normal to be shocked that anyone would sell a product in this state for 50 USD to long term fans. To me its hilarious that to you there doesnt seem to be any expectation when buying EA - its like a magic term that seems to make everything okay?

So from your point of view - is there anything that wouldnt be acceptable when a game is sold as EA?

Edited March 13, 2023 by Moons

[cocoscacao]

Alright, I'll bite the apple again. @Moons You have description on wikipedia what EA is. What is written there, matches with the current state of KSP. If you have a different source on what EA should represent, please share it.

Edited March 13, 2023 by cocoscacao

[K^2]

6 hours ago, Moons said:

EA means you purchase the product in the state it is when you do you purchase - they could simply stop development and i wouldnt be able to refund since the only thing i actually paid for was the game as is at the time of purchase.

If that was the case, then you would never get anything but a few bug fixes post-release. Corps aren't going to work for free. The improvements are inherent in the promise of the early access - that's the whole point. If you don't trust the company to make the game better, you should not be buying early access. And if you do, then let the company work. Again, that's the entire premise of the early access.

I completely understand the situation with some games where the trust erodes over time, but Intercept haven't even had the time to release their first patch yet, which is coming on precisely the kind of schedule that it was expected. (Two week development sprint + a week of testing.) If you have less trust in Intercept after that patch, some of the complaints might make sense. Right now, it's just silly.

[cocoscacao]

1 minute ago, K^2 said:

where the trust erodes over time

It would be interesting (and maybe they plan something similar) to release a video once a month on what their vague plan for the future is. Dev diaries give us what they're working on currently, a video per month gives us some bigger picture. Dunno.

[RocketRockington]

18 minutes ago, mcwaffles2003 said:

Well maybe listen to the community... You were made well aware of its state, its hilarious anyone could be shocked still

Half the community also says they like it - should @Moons be berated for at least checking it out and keeping an open-enough mind to view it?  I don't understand the people in this thread who are often the ones who most excuse the state of KSP2 also getting on Moons' case for at least trying it out and drawing their own conclusions, saying 'well you know about the bugs, what did you expect.'   Maybe the sheer # of bugs surprised them - maybe Moons thought there's a chance that people like me who say its a dumpster fire are exaggerating.

Edited March 13, 2023 by RocketRockington

[mcwaffles2003]

5 minutes ago, RocketRockington said:

Half the community also says they like it - should @Moons be berated for at least checking it out and keeping an open-enough mind to view it?  I don't understand the people in this thread who are often the ones who most excuse the state of KSP2 also getting on Moons' case for at least trying it out and drawing their own conclusions, saying 'well you know about the bugs, what did you expect.'   Maybe the sheer # of bugs surprised them - maybe Moons thought there's a chance that people like me who say its a dumpster fire are exaggerating.

Yes, many of us did like it... No one here come close to suggesting the game is bug free though, just those who like it work around the bugs. If you are someone who is unwilling to work around bugs and expects a smooth experience at this point then that is self injury. Also me finding self injury funny is not berating, it's natural, if it werent then Johnny Knoxville and Steve-o wouldn't be famous

Edited March 13, 2023 by mcwaffles2003

[cocoscacao]

4 minutes ago, RocketRockington said:

like me who say its a dumpster fire

I cannot answer you fully, because my post will be deleted. I'm curious why do you think it is a dumpster fire? I'm not gonna lie, there are things that aren't fully clear to me either.

[Moons]

17 minutes ago, cocoscacao said:

Alright, I'll bite the apple again. @Moons You have description on wikipedia what EA is. What is written there, matches with the current state of KSP. If you have a different source on what EA should represent, please share it.

You do realize that the only think that is imoportant is what you agreed to on Steam and the Steam EA FAQs - there is no clear definition what EA is in general and it doesnt matter what is written on Wikipedia.

[mcwaffles2003]

4 minutes ago, Moons said:

You do realize that the only think that is imoportant is what you agreed to on Steam and the Steam EA FAQs - there is no clear definition what EA is in general and it doesnt matter what is written on Wikipedia.

Then shouldn't you be arguing your point on the steam forums instead since you're unhappy that theyre the platform that allowed the sale? Maybe you can change their terms and there won't be any early access anymore! we would all be saved

Edited March 13, 2023 by mcwaffles2003

[cocoscacao]

@Moons Finally a proper answer. Alright, let's ditch wiki out of the picture. Here's the link to Steam rules page. I've read through them now. Which of those 7 points are violated from your perspective?

[Moons]

21 minutes ago, K^2 said:

If that was the case, then you would never get anything but a few bug fixes post-release. Corps aren't going to work for free. The improvements are inherent in the promise of the early access - that's the whole point. If you don't trust the company to make the game better, you should not be buying early access. And if you do, then let the company work. Again, that's the entire premise of the early access.

I completely understand the situation with some games where the trust erodes over time, but Intercept haven't even had the time to release their first patch yet, which is coming on precisely the kind of schedule that it was expected. (Two week development sprint + a week of testing.) If you have less trust in Intercept after that patch, some of the complaints might make sense. Right now, it's just silly.

But thats the case - thats a simple fact:

https://www.destructoid.com/valve-updates-steam-early-access-faq-with-warning-that-some-games-wont-be-released/

https://store.steampowered.com/earlyaccessfaq

Quote

Is this the same as pre-purchasing a game?

No. Early Access is a full purchase of a playable game. By purchasing, you gain immediate access to download and play the game in its current form and as it evolves. You keep access to the game, even if the game later moves from Early Access into fully released.

When will these games release?

Its up to the developer to determine when they are ready to 'release'. Some developers have a concrete deadline in mind, while others will get a better sense as the development of the game progresses. You should be aware that some teams will be unable to 'finish' their game. So you should only buy an Early Access game if you are excited about playing it in its current state.

 

 

 

 

https://partner.steamgames.com/doc/store/earlyaccess

Quote

"Early Access is not a pre-purchase
Early Access is not meant to be a form of pre-purchase, but a tool to get your game in front of Steam users and gather feedback while finishing your game.

Early Access titles must deliver a playable game or usable software to the customer at the time of purchase, while pre-purchase games are delivered at a future date. Read more about Pre-Purchasing on Steam."

Quote

2. Do not make specific promises about future events. For example, there is no way you can know exactly when the game will be finished, that the game will be finished, or that planned future additions will definitely happen. Do not ask your customers to bet on the future of your game. Customers should be buying your game based on its current state, not on promises of a future that may or may not be realized.

Quote

Q: What happens if I don't complete my game?

A: Sometimes things don't work out as you planned, and you may need to discontinue development of your game. If this happens, you should contact Valve to figure out the next steps. Before reaching out, take a moment to carefully consider whether or not pulling your game down is actually the right choice. Are you acting based on an emotional response to negative feedback, or is retiring your game the appropriate next step? We take our relationship with customers seriously, so if you choose to cancel development of a game and retire it from the store, we will not republish it again later and we may offer refunds to any users who purchased it. Treating customers fairly is the most important thing to us. You can learn more by reading Removing a Product From Steam.

EA isnt a pre-purchase.

 

 

 

1 minute ago, cocoscacao said:

@Moons Finally a proper answer. Alright, let's ditch wiki out of the picture. Here's the link to Steam rules page. I've read through them now. Which of those 7 points are violated from your perspective?

There is a lot of things you can do and that wont be against any rules - but that doesnt mean that they are okay. When did i ever say that KSP violated EA terms?

Edited March 13, 2023 by Moons