Rooting for JUICE

[The Aziz]

On 5/11/2023 at 7:44 AM, Redneck said:

OR.....they could of released the game without the obvious bugs that everybody on the team knew were there and were obvious but they chose to release anyways at top dollar prices i may add. We would prolly be further along in the development roadmap by now.  And all these complaints prolly wouldn't be as big an issue as they are now. But i know that just makes to much sense.........SMH

Could have*

Ok, who *chose* to release? I don't think Intercept had much to say about the final date at that point. There was no choice.

[PDCWolf]

1 hour ago, The Aziz said:

Could have*

Ok, who *chose* to release? I don't think Intercept had much to say about the final date at that point. There was no choice.

Do we place the full blame on T2 rushing them? Why would T2 announce a full release for Early 2020 only to kill an entire studio, delay 3 times and then end up with an Early Access almost 4 years later? Something bigger than "oops we missed a deadline" had to have happened. I obviously don't have 100% certainty on this, but Star Theory and later on PD might be involved in "overstating their progress" if we can call it that.

Further on, Reddit's version of this thread has some very interesting and damaging information in it:

Spoiler

 

First link from the first image

Second link from the first image

Link to "NateFromUber" Reddit's profile

[The Aziz]

This again?

Yes I'd blame T2 for understaffing such complex project, underestimating customer expectations and overall interest (hence the whole wipe and start over thing, I still believe what we would see in 2020 would be nowhere near what the team is cooking now). 

And T2 wanted to get it out before Fiscal year ended, cuz, you know, financial reports matter for those higher up in corporate hierarchy, and the latest financial reports had KSP2 launch slated for no later than march 2023.

As for reddit, can't be bothered, if the hate and toxicity was rocket fuel, a single thread there would be enough to send me to Mars.

 

Why isn't anyone calling out Squad for promising multiplayer anymore? People loved to do that.

[Scarecrow71]

Just now, The Aziz said:

Why isn't anyone calling out Squad for promising multiplayer anymore? People loved to do that.

While I have no inside information, I have a hunch as to why.  In 2 parts.

First, mods.  While KSP1 wasn't built to handle multiplayer, there is at least 1 mod that pulled it off to some degree.  Not the best solution, but it does (from what I understand) work.

Secondly, with KSP2 having promised multiplayer, it is possible that the community here decided to just drop it with KSP1 in the hopes that KSP2 would just be too kewl for words.  Which of course hasn't happened yet.

Again, this is just me spitballing.  I could be wrong 

[PDCWolf]

On 5/12/2023 at 6:05 AM, The Aziz said:

Why isn't anyone calling out Squad for promising multiplayer anymore? People loved to do that.

First off, I literally did that on the last big multiplayer discussion thread.

On 5/12/2023 at 6:05 AM, The Aziz said:

Yes I'd blame T2 for understaffing such complex project, underestimating customer expectations and overall interest (hence the whole wipe and start over thing, I still believe what we would see in 2020 would be nowhere near what the team is cooking now).

Yeah, you can totally do that to a certain point. Underestimating interest is certainly not a reality though, as the peak was 25000 players, so clearly interest in KSP2 outside of... us, wasn't that high to begin with. What we saw in 2020 really doesn't look different enough to me, there's minor graphical alterations, and performance remained consistent during the whole media campaign, so I don't buy they started from absolute zero.

On 5/12/2023 at 6:05 AM, The Aziz said:

And T2 wanted to get it out before Fiscal year ended, cuz, you know, financial reports matter for those higher up in corporate hierarchy, and the latest financial reports had KSP2 launch slated for no later than march 2023.

They wanted it on FY 2019, then they slated it for FY 2020, FY 2021, and finally, the fourth fiscal year since they originally promised. I think delaying a return on investment for however many years it was in development +4 is not something you can accuse them off. They didn't "rush" the thing.

[snip]

Edited May 14, 2023 by Vanamonde

[Meecrob]

1 hour ago, The Aziz said:

And T2 wanted to get it out before Fiscal year ended, cuz, you know, financial reports matter for those higher up in corporate hierarchy, and the latest financial reports had KSP2 launch slated for no later than march 2023.

This is not a great argument. "Let's accept an unfinished game cuz some shareholders wanted to make money off of us"

I thought this was supposed to be a long-term project? But they need to make money NOW apparently...

Edited May 12, 2023 by Meecrob

[MarcAbaddon]

I agree with those concerns - there is some history that isn't super promising.

Additionally, we got 2 dev diaries since release from the people responsible for graphics programming and QA - both very central parts of the games and both parts which the game had severe issues which on release (and still has). Both of those diaries were written by people who had just joined the team. That's just strange. Either there is huge turn-around in staff (not a good sign) or there was shuffling due to the EA issues (not good either). 

As for Take Two's role, that is very hard to tell. They invested quite heavily in the game, it stands to reason that they are not happy with endless delays and want to see something happen. It doesn't even need to do with the Fiscal Year as people speculate and might be more about testing if it worth investing further into the team, after them missing timeline after timeline.

Edited May 12, 2023 by MarcAbaddon

[Alexoff]

I wonder if T2 had not set a hard deadline for the release of the game in some form last fall, when the developers would have finished polishing the game? In 2033?

[Scarecrow71]

You know, if the community really wants to get their voices heard, we could all just file regulatory complaints over breach of contract.  We did pay money based on the promises and communication that came out, and it's possible we could claim that those promises were not met and that the game we got was not what they said they were going to deliver.  If enough people complain, the FDC might look into things with the company further.  Which would be compounded by the fact that this company was involved in 2 other instances (Human Resources, Planetary Annihilation) that didn't turn out the best.

Just saying.

[PDCWolf]

2 minutes ago, Scarecrow71 said:

You know, if the community really wants to get their voices heard, we could all just file regulatory complaints over breach of contract.  We did pay money based on the promises and communication that came out, and it's possible we could claim that those promises were not met and that the game we got was not what they said they were going to deliver.  If enough people complain, the FDC might look into things with the company further.  Which would be compounded by the fact that this company was involved in 2 other instances (Human Resources, Planetary Annihilation) that didn't turn out the best.

Just saying.

Apart from tax evasion on certain jurisdictions, one of the other umbrellas provided by Early Access is that your game doesn't qualify as a finished product for the law. You're paying for access to the development process of a yet to release product. Further on, a lot of us are not from the states so we're pretty much unable to be legally involved.

I'd love to see a videogame company taken to court for false advertising, but we also know courts only consider proper advertisement for that definition: I.E. the ads they ran on youtube/TV.

 

[Scarecrow71]

4 minutes ago, PDCWolf said:

Apart from tax evasion on certain jurisdictions, one of the other umbrellas provided by Early Access is that your game doesn't qualify as a finished product for the law. You're paying for access to the development process of a yet to release product. Further on, a lot of us are not from the states so we're pretty much unable to be legally involved.

I'd love to see a videogame company taken to court for false advertising, but we also know courts only consider proper advertisement for that definition: I.E. the ads they ran on youtube/TV.

 

Well, I didn't say it would be easy.  Or that it would stick.  Only that it is an avenue if the community gets fed up enough with it.

And not living in the states shouldn't be a deterrent as the publisher and developers live here.

[Meecrob]

I would hesitate to take legal action simply because it would give them an excuse to not develop the game. "We wanted to make the game but our funds and time were absorbed by litigation"

[PDCWolf]

5 minutes ago, Meecrob said:

I would hesitate to take legal action simply because it would give them an excuse to not develop the game. "We wanted to make the game but our funds and time were absorbed by litigation"

T2 is not even remotely close to "spending all their money on legal fees", and the threat of defunding and canning the project is already bigger than ever right now without even a hint of a threat.

[Meecrob]

Oh, I agree totally. Take Two has more than enough money, but it still gives them the excuse. I mean look at what they have tried to tell us so far. I think litigation would be the straw that breaks this camel's back. Shareholders would not stand for it, or at least they would be very displeased.

 

Having said that, I wish companies could be taken to court over issues like this without repercussions. We want them to just make the game they said they would make, but legal issues may make them just declare bankruptcy since IG has nothing else going on. Its easier to just close the studio from Take Two's perspective.

Edited May 12, 2023 by Meecrob

[Kimera Industries]

Very fun! I love the work that's being done. KSP2 looks so amazing, I wish  my computer could run it just so I could stare in awe at the graphics and fancy features!

I actually learned about JUICE just yesterday. Recently I've been looking into why we don't have more probes in the solar system. It's really sad that the main reason is the cost. Good thing that's not a concern in KSP!

[Alexoff]

3 hours ago, Meecrob said:

Its easier to just close the studio from Take Two's perspective.

Rather, they will close the entire Private Division. I don't really understand what they do at all, who plays their other games? Or is it some clever tax evasion? I heard that high-tech companies pay taxes on profits, and if they spend real profits on investments, then they will not pay taxes. Perhaps T2 is spending on papers on the indie sector a much larger amount than they actually invest, thats why the result is so depressing.

[Meecrob]

I'm not trying to dole out blame, I'm just saying that bringing a legal case is likely to be detrimental to KSP2's development, even though many people are at the point where they would like to see a legal case brought. There are not many avenues that people who are unhappy about the state of the game at time of posting can go down to be satisfied and it is human nature to want *someone* to blame when something does not live up to expectations. I'm included in that last sentence...at least my lizard brain is.

We do not know if this is the fault of Private Division, but something tells me they are not needing KSP2 to sell to remain solvent.

Edited May 12, 2023 by Meecrob

[stephensmat]

Turning back to the Title of the thread for a moment: They Did It!

 

https://www.space.com/juice-jupiter-probe-fixes-antenna-glitch

[Vanamonde]

Some comments removed. Don't make it personal about staff, as well as each other.