Missing Titanic tourist sub

[DDE]

19 hours ago, kerbiloid said:

https://news.sky.com/story/uk-billionaire-hamish-harding-on-board-missing-titanic-submersible-family-confirms-12905616

And this peculiar crew already makes conspiracy theories swirl.

[Kerbart]

15 hours ago, Nuke said:

how close to the wreck were they allowed to go? 

By who? It's not like the wreckage is patrolled by the International Waters Sea Police.

[Minmus Taster]

Reportedly the companies CEO is on board as well. This is well and truly a disaster on all fronts.

Just now, Kerbart said:

By who? It's not like the wreckage is patrolled by the International Waters Sea Police.

There are treaties in place and this is a public mission. Not that there's anything rock solid protecting the wreck. It's been looted quite a bit sadly but I do not believe the Titan can even pick up artifacts.

[Minmus Taster]

The final crew member is now thought to be Paul-Henry Nargeolet. Former member of the French navy and a prominent reashercher of the titanic. He's been down to the wreck many times before.

[Superluminal Gremlin]

From the BBC, an area larger than Connecticut has been searched. It's most probable that it is below the water.

[tater]

Almost certainly imploded. Any pressure vessel failure would be catastrophic, and nearly instantaneous. Submarine crush failures occur in on the order of 10s of miliseconds.

I read something that said there was a lawsuit from a former employee who wanted more safety testing.

20 hours ago, TheSaint said:

3. They had a catastrophic flooding accident. If that happened, this isn't a rescue op, this is a recovery op.

A subset of this would be a hull failure. They only have one vessel, and they never destructively tested one. It has made a number of round trips... all it would take is a tiny failure and BOOM, instantly crushed. It was like 90 min into the dive, and the total time to the bottom is like 150 min? So more than 2000m deep.

Honestly that's the best outcome, the chance they are alive on the surface is ~0, and alive below the surface = dead anyway. Better to be all smiles, then instantly gone than to be in a tube with 4 other people slowly expiring.

[AlamoVampire]

14 hours ago, Nuke said:

i think the idea is you take a couple of rich tourists along to fund the expedition. you are still doing scientific things but you got a couple people on board for the ride. but if you are carrying tourists, you really should be keeping safe distance. 

I find this to be disrespectful of the possible dead passengers and/or crew that may yet still remain on board the wreck. They died tragic and horrific deaths (those who died on board as it sank as well as those who died in the water) and should be left to rest in peace. Tourism to the site is barbaric. Its bad enough scientists risk their lives to understand the sinking and how the wreck is slowly returning to the sea and Earth but risking tourists lives for thrills and clout is flat out disgusting. Let the dead rest in peace. I do hope the sub is found safe and well but let the wreck of Titanic and her victims rest.

173006202023

[Superluminal Gremlin]

Another excerpt from the BBC

 

Submersible experts wrote to OceanGate CEO expressing concern

The New York Times has unearthed a 2018 letter sent by submersible experts to Stockton Rush, the CEO of OceanGate.

The authors of the letter expressed "unanimous concern" over the approach taken by OceanGate when building the Titan and warned of potential "catastrophic" issues with its design.

They also said OceanGate was making "misleading" claims about its design exceeding established industry safety standards and urged Rush to institute a prototype testing program reviewed and witnessed by an accredited registrar.

"It is our unanimous view that this validation process by a third-party is a critical component in the safeguards that protect all submersible occupants," the letter read.

The NYT said a spokesperson for OceanGate declined to comment

 

 

I agree with @tater

This is currently the most likely scenario, I believe.

 

 

 

 

Edited June 20, 2023 by Superluminal Gremlin

[tater]

1 hour ago, AlamoVampire said:

I find this to be disrespectful of the possible dead passengers and/or crew that may yet still remain on board the wreck. They died tragic and horrific deaths (those who died on board as it sank as well as those who died in the water) and should be left to rest in peace. Tourism to the site is barbaric. Its bad enough scientists risk their lives to understand the sinking and how the wreck is slowly returning to the sea and Earth but risking tourists lives for thrills and clout is flat out disgusting. Let the dead rest in peace. I do hope the sub is found safe and well but let the wreck of Titanic and her victims rest.

So visiting a battlefield is also barbaric? We were presumably barbaric to visit the Tower of London as well?

There's a museum near Battery Park in NYC in a spot that I used to go to when it was 2 skyscrapers. I have not personally been back to the Trade Centers since 9-11, but I don't think it's "barbaric" that some people do (not sure what I think of a lot of memorials at sites of those, but "barbaric" doesn't leap to mind as much as "tasteless" maybe). Course that event was much more recent, while almost no one is alive on the planet (actually no one?) who was alive when Titanic sank.

Loads of people dive wrecks, it's fine. Someday I'd love to visit the southwest Pacific, specifically Guadalcanal, and some of the WW2 sites in that area. It would be cool to see a wrecked airplane in the jungle. Heck, I have hiked to a site behind my house called "the plane wreck" here in the Sandias. A Martin 4-0-4 (TWA) crashed into the mountain killing 16 people. Wreckage is still there. Nice day hike.

1 hour ago, Superluminal Gremlin said:

The New York Times has unearthed a 2018 letter sent by submersible experts to Stockton Rush, the CEO of OceanGate.

Wow.

I was looking at videos of COPVs failing last night to get a feel for carbon fiber failing in the other direction... nothing, then BOOM.

Edited June 20, 2023 by tater

[AlamoVampire]

@tater visiting battle fields or places like Auschwitz can be and typically is done with little risk to you or to those hallowed sites. Getting into a vessel and descending more than 12000 feet into a hostile environment where 1 mistake, 1 error can KILL YOU and risk disturbing the site by adding more debris and more bodies absolutely is barbaric. You disagree? Convince me that I should as a tourist pay obscene money to risk tarnishing Titanic and her victims in the name of tourism is anything close to respectful or a good idea. You cannot. Its risky enough to send ROVs in the name of research but you cross into tacky, tasteless and pure disrespect the instant anything coming close to commercial or private tourism to visit that site.

185606202023

[Just Jim]

This is so tragic. I can only hope and pray that they are OK, although it's looking pretty bad at this point.
 

33 minutes ago, AlamoVampire said:

visiting battle fields or places like Auschwitz can be and typically is done with little risk to you or to those hallowed sites. Getting into a vessel and descending more than 12000 feet into a hostile environment where 1 mistake, 1 error can KILL YOU and risk disturbing the site by adding more debris and more bodies absolutely is barbaric.

In principal I don't think there's much difference between visiting the site of the Titanic vs the Arizona in Pearl Harbor.
But I totally agree that diving that deep and putting yourself in that kind of danger to do it is totally nuts! At least that's my opinion.

[Nuke]

6 hours ago, Kerbart said:

By who? It's not like the wreckage is patrolled by the International Waters Sea Police.

i meant more for safety reasons. it is a 100 year old wreck and could collapse at any time. dive/submersible operators tend to be very safety conscious. of course if you got a rich guy in the back seat who wants to get closer and claim that they are entitled to violate safety rules because they footed the bill, its a different matter. 

[TheSaint]

Yeah, I was reading up on the whole carbon fiber submarine thing this afternoon. There is no way in Hell you would get me on to one of those things. Not for all the tea in China.

As for visiting the wreck: I'm fine with folks visiting it. Disturbing it isn't right. Unintentionally disturbing it can't be helped. But I don't think that the Titanic is somehow more hallowed than any other wreck or crash site. War graves, such as the wrecks of sunken warships or crashed warplanes, are more hallowed, at least to me, simply by their nature. But as long as they're treated respectfully and not disturbed, I don't have any problem with folks visiting them.

[Nuke]

2 hours ago, AlamoVampire said:

I find this to be disrespectful of the possible dead passengers and/or crew that may yet still remain on board the wreck. They died tragic and horrific deaths (those who died on board as it sank as well as those who died in the water) and should be left to rest in peace. Tourism to the site is barbaric. Its bad enough scientists risk their lives to understand the sinking and how the wreck is slowly returning to the sea and Earth but risking tourists lives for thrills and clout is flat out disgusting. Let the dead rest in peace. I do hope the sub is found safe and well but let the wreck of Titanic and her victims rest.

173006202023

well maybe it will take the wreck claiming a few more lives to change that. but so long as there is no blatant looting im fine with it. although sea life has probibly eaten all the human remains at this point.

but these expeditions are not cheap, you need an entire ship and its crew to pay for, to drop a small sub 2 miles into the ocean to take photos, scans, etc.  i see this more as creative funding of research rather than grave robbing. 

if were being honest, all the world is a mass grave. does that mean we shouldn't live on top of it?

Edited June 21, 2023 by Nuke

[AlamoVampire]

46 minutes ago, Just Jim said:

In principal I don't think there's much difference between visiting the site of the Titanic vs the Arizona in Pearl Harbor.
But I totally agree that diving that deep and putting yourself in that kind of danger to do it is totally nuts! At least that's my opinion.

The difference or rather differences are that there are: The USS Arizona is patrolled by US National Park Service Rangers maintaining the sanctity and security of the site as well as tourist safety and safety measures to keep the fallen sailors, the wreck, the site and visitors safe. The wreck of the Titanic is deeper than 12,000 feet in international waters with little to protect or preserve the site let alone the safety of TRAINED deep water scientific teams let alone rich clout seeking tourists with 0 training or any clue of just how lethal or how FAST it can go lethal that deep. Its reported that at Titanic the pressure is 400 atmospheres or 6000 psi. Thats no place to tour for the gram or tiktok. Its a place of extreme risk and a place for reverence for what happened.

202906202023

[Just Jim]

45 minutes ago, AlamoVampire said:

The difference or rather differences are that there are: The USS Arizona is patrolled by US National Park Service Rangers maintaining the sanctity and security of the site as well as tourist safety and safety measures to keep the fallen sailors, the wreck, the site and visitors safe. The wreck of the Titanic is deeper than 12,000 feet in international waters with little to protect or preserve the site let alone the safety of TRAINED deep water scientific teams let alone rich clout seeking tourists with 0 training or any clue of just how lethal or how FAST it can go lethal that deep. Its reported that at Titanic the pressure is 400 atmospheres or 6000 psi. Thats no place to tour for the gram or tiktok. Its a place of extreme risk and a place for reverence for what happened.

202906202023

Agreed. IMO, the idea of taking tourists down that deep just to see it is completely insane, and far too risky.  

[tater]

2 hours ago, AlamoVampire said:

@tater visiting battle fields or places like Auschwitz can be and typically is done with little risk to you or to those hallowed sites. Getting into a vessel and descending more than 12000 feet into a hostile environment where 1 mistake, 1 error can KILL YOU and risk disturbing the site by adding more debris and more bodies absolutely is barbaric. You disagree? Convince me that I should as a tourist pay obscene money to risk tarnishing Titanic and her victims in the name of tourism is anything close to respectful or a good idea. You cannot. Its risky enough to send ROVs in the name of research but you cross into tacky, tasteless and pure disrespect the instant anything coming close to commercial or private tourism to visit that site.

Walking on battlefields impacts them. Farmers still dig up artillery shells (including gas) in WW1 battlefields. They are digging battlefields with countless unknown dead churned into the ground, just to grow some veggies.

People take tourist helicopter rides over... whatever. They can and have crashed. I flew in a B-17, there are few left flying, and they sometimes crash, killing people—aboard, and possibly on the ground (we flew over town, after all). It;s not remotely "barbaric." Caring about a site just because people happened to die there seems more primitive to me (and hence barbaric).

So there is nothing "hallowed" about any site, IMO. To date ~78 billion humans have lived. All of them not currently alive died. Literally anyplace among peopled locations you might impact could be the site of human death. Meh. Dig a pool in the back yard—what if a farmer was tragically struck by lightning and killed 200 years ago! Barbarian, you disturbed hallowed ground!

As for tarnishing it—it's rusting into the sea as it is. In not very long it will be gone. If no human visits it again, it might as well already be tarnished into nonexistence—it's not a thing that matters if human eyeballs don't look at it.

Respectful? Meh.

Good idea? Clearly not, the penalty is a nonzero chance of death apparently.

"Commercial" visits are bad... lemme guess, someone with the right credentials having other people pay for it is better. For reasons. Cause it's important to "research" a wreck that is gonna do as expected and rust away. It's not even old enough that there is interesting information, we literally know the name of every person aboard, the brand of silverware, etc used... it's not like the wreck of an age of sail ship where other than the name and some basic data, perhaps nothing is known.

So yeah, my concern level about Titanic is functionally zero. I suppose if I had to set some standard it would be that people related to the victims—who actually remember them alive—are still around. In that case it's maybe worth discussing depending on the site. Maybe.

1 hour ago, Nuke said:

if were being honest, all the world is a mass grave. does that mean we shouldn't live on top of it?

I said the same. You said it better.

Edited June 21, 2023 by tater

[Minmus Taster]

The HMCS Glace Bay is reportedly heading to the search area with a diving bell of some kind and a medical team. I've been on the Glace Bay once before, she was docked in Hamilton and they allowed civilians to walk around her. She's a nice little ship, I trust her crew will do their best with the little resources they have.

[tater]

52 minutes ago, AlamoVampire said:

The difference or rather differences are that there are: The USS Arizona is patrolled by US National Park Service Rangers maintaining the sanctity and security of the site as well as tourist safety and safety measures to keep the fallen sailors, the wreck, the site and visitors safe. The wreck of the Titanic is deeper than 12,000 feet in international waters with little to protect or preserve the site let alone the safety of TRAINED deep water scientific teams let alone rich clout seeking tourists with 0 training or any clue of just how lethal or how FAST it can go lethal that deep. Its reported that at Titanic the pressure is 400 atmospheres or 6000 psi. Thats no place to tour for the gram or tiktok. Its a place of extreme risk and a place for reverence for what happened.

My son is actually named after my wife's uncle. He enlisted the USN in time to see service in WW2, retired a Captain. At some point during or soon after the war he apparently collided with the Arizona wreck with whatever small boat he was driving around Pearl (on duty). Oops, "sanctity" disturbed.

Nothing will preserve Titanic, just as nothing will preserve Arizona. The monument above Arizona will become the only site that matters, as will the GPS location of the Titanic wreck.

The lethality is simply a choice. People do dangerous things all the time. Something like 200 people have visited the wreck (submersibles). 5 dead is a 2.5% fatality rate. Annapurna I and K2 have mortality rates 10X that (K2 used to be 20X that). Given all the dead up there, does that make that hallowed ground as well?

[AlamoVampire]

15 minutes ago, tater said:

Walking on battlefields impacts them.

In a small measured and predictable ways. Ways that can and are accounted for.

Flying in helicopters or relic warbirds is not the same. Do they have risks? Of course they do. 
BUT:

Submarines diving 12500 feet down being exposed to 400 atmospheres of pressure over a rusting wreck just in the name of: hey i have money lets go put myself into a stupidly dangerous situation to visit a ship that sank! Now that is a level of stupidity and disrespect i cannot get behind or respect. 
 

Your son (if i read you correctly, if not apologies) and his vessel hitting the Arizona should have earned him and which ever CO tasked him with that patrol a reprimand for careless navigating near a known hazard. Yes the Arizona is a navigational hazard as well as a revered site.

Now lets put YOU into the shoes of a victim of the Titanic. Its 2023, winter to be exact. You have chosen for some reason to cross the Atlantic by ocean liner. Your vessel: RMS Queen Mary 2. Some ghastly tragedy happens sinking the vessel and proportionally the same number of survivors and fatalities occur. You die on board the vessel as it sinks into the Atlantic. And as grim as Im getting there is 0 chance passengers lost inside the vessel can be recovered. Would you rather the site the vessel comes to final rest on the seafloor be left in peace or be visited and disturbed over and over for as long as the vessel exists before it eventually decays to dust? Would your current family or descendants take peace in knowing your final resting place is left alone or become some high priced tourist spot? Be honest and not contrarian here. If it were me? Leave my body alone on the seafloor. Mark my final resting place on a chart if you must but let me have the peace of the grave knowing ill be left in peace.

18 minutes ago, tater said:

The lethality is simply a choice. People do dangerous things all the time.

No. The lethality of 400 atmospheres of pressure is not a choice. That pressure is lethal. Period. I need neither accept it or not, my acceptance changes nothing. Put my flesh into that pressure and im going to squish instantly. The choice is knowing that a single mistake 12500 feet down may kill you before you even know it happened and choosing to take that risk.

There is, and I mean this in 100% candor and clarity: There is absolutely zero reasonable or acceptable reason to take a sub full of untrained arrogant and entitled people who have 0 scientific training or purpose to be there down 12500 to visit the Titanic. Clout or instagram or facebook posts are not a good or acceptable reason.

The ONLY reasons to visit it are scientific in nature. To understand how the wreck happened. To understand the ecological impact of the wreck (im including all aspects of this field). To understand how the pressures that deep affect metals, woods and other materials not native to the seafloor. And any other avenue of scientific inquiry not directly stated or indirectly alluded to.

Those who perish trying to summit mountains are indeed monuments. I would say yes any ground in which life has been lost, regardless of in war or in peace should be treated with reverence. 

We clearly disagree here. I have said all I can or will say on this save: Continue safe ROV scientific visits. End paid tourist visits. 
 

220906202023

[kerbiloid]

2023 - 1912 = 111

[tater]

56 minutes ago, AlamoVampire said:

Submarines diving 12500 feet down being exposed to 400 atmospheres of pressure over a rusting wreck just in the name of: hey i have money lets go put myself into a stupidly dangerous situation to visit a ship that sank! Now that is a level of stupidity and disrespect i cannot get behind or respect. 

Stupidity? Sure, not something I am interested in doing. Disrespect? Meh, not seeing it. ~35% of Earth is iron. Titanic is just more iron.

56 minutes ago, AlamoVampire said:

Your son (if i read you correctly, if not apologies) and his vessel hitting the Arizona should have earned him and which ever CO tasked him with that patrol a reprimand for careless navigating near a known hazard. Yes the Arizona is a navigational hazard as well as a revered site.

My son's great uncle. My 16 year old was not alive to serve in WW2

His great uncle hit it (as I said) DURING WW2, or just after the war (~1942 or later), lol. Whatever reprimand he got apparently did not prevent him from becoming a Captain.

56 minutes ago, AlamoVampire said:

Now lets put YOU into the shoes of a victim of the Titanic. Its 2023, winter to be exact. You have chosen for some reason to cross the Atlantic by ocean liner. Your vessel: RMS Queen Mary 2. Some ghastly tragedy happens sinking the vessel and proportionally the same number of survivors and fatalities occur. You die on board the vessel as it sinks into the Atlantic. And as grim as Im getting there is 0 chance passengers lost inside the vessel can be recovered. Would you rather the site the vessel comes to final rest on the seafloor be left in peace or be visited and disturbed over and over for as long as the vessel exists before it eventually decays to dust? Would your current family or descendants take peace in knowing your final resting place is left alone or become some high priced tourist spot? Be honest and not contrarian here. If it were me? Leave my body alone on the seafloor. Mark my final resting place on a chart if you must but let me have the peace of the grave knowing ill be left in peace.

I'd not care even a little if they crawled over the wreck the next day. Why would I possibly care, I'm dead. Someone with a sub looks at the wreck—or my body—or some sort of sea worm eats me first.

I'm not being contrarian, I could not possibly care less.

56 minutes ago, AlamoVampire said:

No. The lethality of 400 atmospheres of pressure is not a choice. That pressure is lethal. Period. I need neither accept it or not, my acceptance changes nothing. Put my flesh into that pressure and im going to squish instantly. The choice is knowing that a single mistake 12500 feet down may kill you before you even know it happened and choosing to take that risk.

The lethality of an 8000m peak is no choice. This line of argument is absurd. 10X as many people die choosing to climb the few most dangerous peaks as have died visiting Titanic. When only 200 had summited, the % was far, far worse. Many die to pure happenstance—avalanche, etc. Every single person doing so knows the risk, as has everyone who visited Titanic.

 

56 minutes ago, AlamoVampire said:

There is, and I mean this in 100% candor and clarity: There is absolutely zero reasonable or acceptable reason to take a sub full of untrained arrogant and entitled people who have 0 scientific training or purpose to be there down 12500 to visit the Titanic. Clout or instagram or facebook posts are not a good or acceptable reason.

Why? They are humans and can do as they like. "Untrained?" How does one train to ride a submarine to -4000m to look out a window, exactly? Arrogant? I don't actually know anyone aboard, so I can't speak for their personality traits, though I understand you think there should be some sort of magic credential that gives people permission to do things you otherwise find "barbaric." There's no "science" to be done on Titanic, BTW. It's a ship rusting. There, done.

56 minutes ago, AlamoVampire said:

The ONLY reasons to visit it are scientific in nature. To understand how the wreck happened. To understand the ecological impact of the wreck (im including all aspects of this field). To understand how the pressures that deep affect metals, woods and other materials not native to the seafloor. And any other avenue of scientific inquiry not directly stated or indirectly alluded to.

LOL, see above. It hit an iceberg. The compartments did not go all the way to the deck. So it sank. Eco stuff? Meh, it rusts away. Much of the Earth is iron, and back to the Earth it goes. Bassalt is iron rich, I'd wager that a couple minutes of Kīlauea lava hitting the ocean results in more iron underwater than Titanic. The work on Titanic has all been private I think. So this is no different. Have 1 crew documenting whatever, and 3 paid passengers along for the ride offsetting cost.

56 minutes ago, AlamoVampire said:

Those who perish trying to summit mountains are indeed monuments. I would say yes any ground in which life has been lost, regardless of in war or in peace should be treated with reverence. 

As was said above, the entire world is the site of >70 billion deaths. Be careful where you walk I guess.

Edited June 21, 2023 by tater

[kerbiloid]

About the respects.

Spoiler

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sedlec_Ossuary

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catacombs_of_Paris

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capela_dos_Ossos

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capuchin_Crypt

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skull_Chapel

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skull_Tower

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Bernardino_alle_Ossa

Btw, there is no body on Titanic (except one skull-like object). At least, wasn't till this week.

Edited June 21, 2023 by kerbiloid

[Kerbart]

3 hours ago, Nuke said:

i meant more for safety reasons. it is a 100 year old wreck and could collapse at any time. dive/submersible operators tend to be very safety conscious. of course if you got a rich guy in the back seat who wants to get closer and claim that they are entitled to violate safety rules because they footed the bill, its a different matter. 

That's likely the problem. A sub filled with dudes who have more money than god and won't take "no" for an answer, with the CEO at the helm who has a bias towards the bottom line of the company. Recipe for disaster.

[tater]

8 hours ago, Kerbart said:

That's likely the problem. A sub filled with dudes who have more money than god and won't take "no" for an answer, with the CEO at the helm who has a bias towards the bottom line of the company. Recipe for disaster.

I doubt the guy driving the sub is gonna risk his own life over that. They'd do better with repeat business.

There was a youtube vid with a panel of people, and 1 was a reporter scientist who went on a Russian dive to the wreck several years ago. He said that there are currents down there, and the sub was swept under one of Titanic's screws. Sorta pinned between the huge screw, and the stern. They sent 2 subs on each dive for "safety" though he quickly realized the second sub could not really do anything to help, and the guy piloting their vessel had to save them, or as he said, "this is how I die."  He proceeded to give thanks to the Russian guy who saved his life (Victor?).

Regardless, they lost comms about an hour before they were on the bottom, and since they "land" some distance from the wreck for safety, then move closer as directed by the surface vessel, they were out of touch for a solid 60-90 minutes before they could possibly be near the wreck to get tangled up in it. I doubt they ever got that close.

Edited June 21, 2023 by tater