KSP2 EA Grand Discussion Thread.

[Alexoff]

16 hours ago, Halfp said:

When will careers and science be available in the game? Do at least one item on the roadmap already, because it's basic.

In a neighboring topic, such a question caused a scandal. No one knows, maybe not even the developers, but most likely science will come out before the spring of 2024. If this does not happen, nothing will save the game.

[Sylvi Fisthaug]

7 minutes ago, Alexoff said:

It's just that they didn't show us anything, except for concepts and photos of real things. It was possible to show a colorful descent of craft into the atmosphere of Eve. But in the tradition of IG, fans have to figure out for themselves what is really going on with the development of the game. Someone thinks that almost everything has already been done, someone thinks that Nertea presented us with a concept that is still going to be implemented. Weird marketing, for some reason I don't understand, doesn't back up good expectations.

One of the CMs, Dakota, addressed this in the KSP2_general chat on discord today: 

Quote

keeping secrets for the sake of advertising is very (:KerbalKonspiracy: emoji) , my friend. there are legitimate reasons to us to hold things back that aren't just "marketing"

Quote

we have some...visuals....lined up to share here soonish. we definitely hear you, I advocate for us showing in-game footage whenever we talk about anything.

 

Edited July 21, 2023 by Sylvi Fisthaug

[KerbolExplorer]

8 minutes ago, Spicat said:

Stop spreading this lie, you said a lot of other things in your message, Darrin was saying you were wrong because you said that  the "First major update in duplicating features of KSP 1." which is false and "Years probably before actually new features" (meaning at least 2 years before science and/or colony) which is also probably false.

He owes you nothing, even less an apology.

Honestly seeing how a game that was supposed to be complete in 2020 currently is in 2023, vastly behind their predecessor and a buggy, laggy and straight up broken mess I don't blame 'em for thinking the next major update is years away, if it will ever come lol.

We've been months with the game already and updates added a couple of new engines?. Yeah there were bug fixes, at least I can do a mun mission without the whole thing imploding or breaking, I think. The devs feel distant, posting walls of texts that 2 guys will read instead of showing something.  We don't know how science will work, multiplayer, etc. All their responses are "It's a secret ;)" you know what's not a secret?, that the player count has been below 1000 for the past months. Alongside all this the devs are stumbling with themselves with issues like the terrain system, the past one worked perfectly and they just created one that will burn up your gpu and isn't an improvement over the last one what so ever. Nice waste of time :p

To top it all off, the original ksp dev, Harvester found a neat way around the wobbling issues for his neat plane game, a game that isn't released but looks miles ahead of ksp2.

[Spicat]

21 minutes ago, moeggz said:

I’m not lying. 

Applying your logic you are.

You literally snip half of your message by saying Darrin answered your cherrypicked part, that's lying.

And no, this is not because the first update is called "science" that it will be the exact same thing as ksp1.

And I really doubt we'll see science or even colonies in more than 2 years (as stated by your message: "Years probably before actually new features")

6 minutes ago, KerbolExplorer said:

snip

I was just talking about a fact. A message of a dev deformed by someone. Maybe it's years away but ksp2 has enough things to criticize to lie and twist words of devs on top of that. (Like everyone saying that Nate is fine with the wobble of ksp2)

Edited July 21, 2023 by Spicat

[moeggz]

He said incorrect across the board. That would include the first statement.

 

In my view science is duplicating features of KSP1. 
Lets leave it at that then. I’m not lying. Grumpy for sure and disagree with me on that but not lying.

17 minutes ago, Nertea said:

That being said when these capabilities come in, we'll definitely figure out what plays well, and what appropriate trades to make a player try to work in. It might be that the SWERV is a good place to introduce a player to the concepts of having to add a little cooling for a powerful engine

And, while I love the concept of thermals now, and think Nertea’s new ideas for a bit more abstraction are great and make me excited for KSP2,

Here we have it. Confirmation that they’re are still in the conception phase, at least partially.

5 months after it was supposed to be here after a short while.

[Spicat]

1 minute ago, moeggz said:

In my view

And that's the problem.

[Alexoff]

3 minutes ago, Sylvi Fisthaug said:

One of the CMs, Dakota, addressed this in the KSP2_general chat on discord today: 

Quote

keeping secrets for the sake of advertising is very (:KerbalKonspiracy: emoji) , my friend. there are legitimate reasons to us to hold things back that aren't just "marketing"

Quote

we have some...visuals....lined up to share here soonish. we definitely hear you, I advocate for us showing in-game footage whenever we talk about anything.

 

The fans should also come up with the reasons for the managers. Well, I've decided to come up with - nothing is ready, nothing to show. It is impossible to refute this with such an approach of developers. It's turning the game into some kind of religious cult, just believe that there is a reason for everything, in the end the faithful will be rewarded bla-bla-bla.

[moeggz]

@Spicat

ok. Direct me to the content updates that duplicated features of KSP1 that have released thus far. If none come in the next 4 weeks no matter how you interpret my message I was correct.

 

[Strawberry]

14 minutes ago, Spicat said:

Applying your logic you are.

You literally snip half of your message by saying Darrin answered your cherrypicked part, that's lying.

I don't think that moeggz is trying to be bad faith here, there is a good chance all of this started by just something being misread, god knows I misread it the first time I saw it. Let's not make this a bigger deal then this needs to be

[moeggz]

38 minutes ago, Strawberry said:

I don't think that moeggz is trying to be bad faith here, there is a good chance all of this started by just something being misread, god knows I misread it the first time I saw it. Let's not make this a bigger deal then this needs to be

And if Darrin just misread it that’s fine. Like I’m not asking for groveling just a 

“in the past some communication may have indicated that science was releasing within 6 months of launch. This was communicated because of a misunderstanding and is incorrect we are sorry but are excitedly implementing science as fast as we can”

Or something similar to that in this dev update about “short while after launch”

just acknowledge that the communication has been misleading at times. Even if unintentional.

 

edit: also that post was highly upvoted on Reddit months ago. They saw the message and had a chance to respond and clarify it it was a misunderstanding but haven’t.

Edited July 21, 2023 by moeggz

[Spicat]

7 minutes ago, moeggz said:

ok. Direct me to the content updates that duplicated features of KSP1 that have released thus far. If none come in the next 4 weeks no matter how you interpret my message I was correct.

I don't understand your message, you want me to show you some new feature that ksp2 has? Or in what way science mode in ksp2 will be different than ksp1?

2 minutes ago, Strawberry said:

I don't think that moeggz is trying to be bad faith here, there is a good chance all of this started by just something being misread, god knows I misread it the first time I saw it. Let's not make this a bigger deal then this needs to be

Well, the problem is that he's spreading misinformation and other people seeing this might also share that thing. No timing was ever communicated aside from the Nate message a few weeks ago which was way after this message. Besides that, CMs kept repeating that they were no ETA on science.

[moeggz]

27 minutes ago, Spicat said:

I don't understand your message, you want me to show you some new feature that ksp2 has? Or in what way science mode in ksp2 will be different than ksp1?

For me to be lying, from launch until now there must have been a content update. Not a bug fix an actual content update. This could just be an update that replicates features of KSP1, or even new features.

As we have had neither (and are unlikely to get one in the next four weeks) I’m not lying to say that Darrin was incorrect when he said I was incorrect. 
 

Because I am correct so far, in 1/2 a year there have been no content updates in KSP2. 

If one comes out in the next 4 weeks Darrin is at least partially correct. So let’s see how that goes but I was clear on that in my first comment that they still have 4 weeks.

Edited July 21, 2023 by moeggz

[Stephensan]

2 minutes ago, moeggz said:

Because I am correct so far, in 1/2 a year there have been no content updates in KSP2. 

i mean we DID get higher ISP metholox engines and AIRBRAKES..

but in most people eyes its rather mute and should have been in day one.

[moeggz]

9 minutes ago, Stephensan said:

i mean we DID get higher ISP metholox engines and AIRBRAKES..

but in most people eyes its rather mute and should have been in day one.

You know what fair point lol.

Take Two Marketing 

|
 

moeggz

0

[Spicat]

Just now, moeggz said:

For me to be lying, from launch until now there must have been a content update. Not a big fix an actual content update. This could just be an update that replicates features of KSP1, or even new features.

As we have had neither (and are unlikely to get one in the next four weeks) I’m not lying to say that Darrin was incorrect when he said I was incorrect. 
 

Because I am correct so far, in 1/2 a year there have been no content updates in KSP2. 

If one comes out in the next 4 weeks Darrin is at least partially correct. So let’s see how that goes but I was clear on that in my first comment that they still have 4 weeks.

If you post a message with 3 things and 2 of them are incorrect, saying your post is incorrect is not a false thing to say. Even if one thing was correct.

If someone say "I think the Earth is flat and that reptiles are among us because the government is lying" and I say "This is very incorrect", would you really say that I'm wrong because the sentence as one thing that is true?

And to stop with this conversation, you (and other) actually accomplished something because Darrin isn't saying anything about the game anymore because of people twisting his words.

[moeggz]

11 minutes ago, Spicat said:

If you post a message with 3 things and 2 of them are incorrect, saying your post is incorrect is not a false thing to say. Even if one thing was correct.

If someone say "I think the Earth is flat and that reptiles are among us because the government is lying" and I say "This is very incorrect", would you really say that I'm wrong because the sentence as one thing that is true?

And to stop with this conversation, you (and other) actually accomplished something because Darrin isn't saying anything about the game anymore because of people twisting his words.

In regards to the second paragraph I agree with you. The phrasing “across the board” means you are addressing all points. Had he just said very incorrect I would agree with you. He said “very incorrect across the board” which makes the statement “very incorrect” apply to “science is 1/2 a year away”

I only mentioned the science part of the communication because that is the relevant part. If you would like, I can add the screenshot to the first comment to make it clear what was said. I in no way meant to misrepresent anyone.

And yeah. He shouldn’t be communicating with the community if he over promises on features and timelines, even if because of a misunderstanding.

Being clear and under promising when in doubt is part of community relations. Now that the overpromise has been communicated I would like a response saying “yeah that was a misunderstanding” 

It’s been months, it was top of r/Kerbalspaceprogram for more than a day. There was an opportunity to correct the misunderstanding and they didn’t. So either it wasn’t a misunderstanding, or they don’t care to acknowledge the overpromising that has been made in the past.

edit: fyi I just added the image to my first reply to this thread. The direct source is now visible.

Edited July 21, 2023 by moeggz

[Alexoff]

3 minutes ago, Spicat said:

Darrin isn't saying anything about the game anymore because of people twisting his words

To do this in the right way, there are specially hired community managers, whose job is to verify their words so that the fans receive comprehensive information. It seems to me that in real life, few people like it when someone communicates with them in such a strange manner that the answer only raises more questions and does not clarify the situation in any way. This is how press secretaries of big politicians or large corporations communicate with journalists when they need to explain something bad.

[whatsEJstandfor]

3 minutes ago, Nertea said:

  An overall question I'd like to answer is whether you feel like this dev blog was a useful thing for me to put together. Given that my role on the KSP2 team is as a designer, I'm limited in what I can write about, and thought I'd try a long-form design document. If it was informative and interesting to read, I've accomplished my goal, but it is quite a time sink to write long things. 

 

I love seeing the thought process behind design but, and I mean no disrespect, it's not like we have any shortage of "here's the stuff we're planning"-type posts. The issue that people on these forums tend to have is that they aren't seeing the results from all the design talk. I think what would be most cathartic at the moment is hearing from engineers, so we can see exactly how these designs are being implemented.  I think that ties into why people are upset over not seeing gameplay footage and whatnot. Like, it's all well and good to see mock-ups explaining a design, but we've had so much of that since release while seeing the actual nuts and bolts has been very scarce.

I hope you (though, more specifically, whoever the people are who decide what information is released) take this as some more constructive criticism. The game has been in development for, let's just say, a while. It's been released in some form for almost 5 months. So I just don't have a lot of interest in more posts about art or design. That stuff is all fun but I've also seen creative teams, startups, Kickstarters, etc, spend so much time on pre-pro and planning but, when it comes time for rubber to hit road, nobody knows what to do next. In this case, I guess that'd be the engineers, so that's what I've been craving lately. 

[Strawberry]

It's really sad what the developers have reduced the game too, nowadays if you want more delta v, you just add more boosters and youre good. This is unlike ksp1's complexity of dealing with delta v management, which approached delta v management in a way in which I will never fully state how. 

Edited July 22, 2023 by Strawberry

[herbal space program]

AlI can say is that if the game we ultimately get deals with all those issues in a consistent, rational manner that both  requires attention to it by users and supports fun gameplay, I will be very pleased! In reality however, we are unfortunately still a long way from talking about stuff like that in a meaningful way.

Edited July 22, 2023 by herbal space program

[RocketRockington]

1 hour ago, Strawberry said:

It's really sad what the developers have reduced the game too, nowadays if you want more delta v, you just add more boosters and youre good. This is unlike ksp1's complexity of dealing with delta v management, which approached delta v management in a way in which I will never fully state how. 

Well, they had a funds model that you had to work against, if you played career.  So you couldn't just add more boosters indefinitely.  Something that KSP2 is gonna be missing.

[RocketRockington]

1 hour ago, Nertea said:

 An overall question I'd like to answer is whether you feel like this dev blog was a useful thing for me to put together. Given that my role on the KSP2 team is as a designer, I'm limited in what I can write about, and thought I'd try a long-form design document. If it was informative and interesting to read, I've accomplished my goal, but it is quite a time sink to write long things. 

It was informative.  I don't agree with many of your decisions here, but it did at least tell me what the plan is.    I do dislike some of the irrelevant and hype-oriented call outs - like, literally nothing about this system has anything to do with Kerbals stepping in volcanoes - but I know that PD Marketting must weigh in on you to dress up these documents as much as possible and keep that hype train chugging, so I can't fault you for it.

As for whether its a good use of your time .  It would be one thing if the team was in a place where it listened to feedback on systems, but my take is that you're not Squad, you're not agile like that, charting a course that can be influenced much by the community other than through massive outcry over specific details (wobbly rockets) and even in that case the ship is slow to turn and wouldn't change course until after a feature was launched.  If it ever will.     It would also be a useful thing if you were in a place like Satisfactory where dev blogs translated sooner to actual interesting gameplay/feature dev on the near term, and you weren't just trying to play catch up on features people expected on release day.  And also we had a dev blog from Mortoc about graphics updates/performance improvements near release, and nothing happened - the community notices.  

So yeah, overall, on a game where you had positive buy-in from a large chunk of the community and dev blogs helped improve sentiment and spread the word around - great. 

But when you're on a ship that's listing and taking on water, keeping the orchestra going isn't really a useful thing.  You should be bailing or putting out the life boats.

12 minutes ago, Pthigrivi said:

Well they're replacing funds with resources which is very likely to increase overall complexity, so there are some trades going on. Unfortunately funds in KSP1 were only really applicable early on as pretty quickly you and a zillion-bazillion funds and they ceased to mean anything. That's a bit different with resources that need to be stored. Given that colonies might have dozens of sources and sinks for heat it makes a lot more sense to keep this system pretty clean and simple. 

A game where you get more resources over time and you can timewarp 10,000,000x, and where the majority of the design team seems to have been afk for 6 years, and you think that's going to be better balanced than KSP1 career mode.   Dream that big dream, I wish I was that unrealistically optimistic.

[Pthigrivi]

14 minutes ago, RocketRockington said:

A game where you get more resources over time and you can timewarp 10,000,000x, 

Thats what Im saying though, if you have limited storage it doesn't matter if you can warp 10,000,000x. Your tanks max out and you either need to use it or build more storage. It's not like money that just balloons to the point where it doesn't mean anything. Resources are an integrated part of the energy and heat and traversal puzzle rather than being a seperate bolted-on system. I think the timeline for release is its own subject that has been rehashed many, many times here and we don't need to have it again. Thus far the actual design decisions have been pretty smart, it's just that the execution is buggy as all get out atm. 

Edited July 22, 2023 by Pthigrivi

[Cytauri]

@NerteaWhen will Vapor Cones and aero effects besides re-entry effects release and will there be re-entry burn marks on the ship that is affected? That is all I care about and is why I bought the game. Thank you.

[Redneck]

cant wait for multiplayer