Another Another Tweet from the team

[cocoscacao]

@Stoup Regardless of that post, I still ain't happy with the comms either. We just got an update that patch is delayed due to performance bottleneck. Period. Any more info would be much appreciated. I'm also quitting hopes on getting any useful info during AMAs. Clearly they want to keep futire gameplay a secret, until it arrives. Nothing wrong with that of course, but I am hoping that at least forum (community) feedback will be taken into serious consideration, once those features arrive. 

[PDCWolf]

2 hours ago, cocoscacao said:

@Stoup Regardless of that post, I still ain't happy with the comms either. We just got an update that patch is delayed due to performance bottleneck. Period. Any more info would be much appreciated. I'm also quitting hopes on getting any useful info during AMAs. Clearly they want to keep futire gameplay a secret, until it arrives. Nothing wrong with that of course, but I am hoping that at least forum (community) feedback will be taken into serious consideration, once those features arrive. 

Of course this is my opinion and nothing more, but what happened with the heat devblog, and all the answers we got from Nertea... to me it looks like those systems aren't even designed yet, they mostly look to be barely gathering requirements or prototyping, without a locked down design yet.

2 hours ago, Stoup said:

Not directed at you personally, but this statement is a pretty good example of exactly WHAT with their communication needs to improve.

This is a very ambiguous statement.

Does this mean they have a functioning version of the heat system, but they're only going to enable parts of it as they go along the roadmap to fit with their specific milestones? I gather that that's the impression they WANT to give.

But it's just as valid an interpretation to say that they're building it as they go, for each milestone.

For me to consider their communication to have improved, what I expect is that I'd be able to read a statement they put out... And not have to wonder about interpretations of what they say, but instead to be left with a clear idea of what is actually happening with KSP2's development 

The statement is followed by an image that for me  makes it super clear that the first stages of heating will come with Science, NOT 0.1.4, or at least that's their goal. I do subscribe to the idea they're building as they go, considering patch speed and how a massively destructive performance bug can pop up 2 weeks before releasing a patch.

It is also my opinion that the communication did improve at some point, but just like their game they had a massive regression, and now we're back to being tone-deaf again, just in a different direction which is not saying enough, or anything at all in some cases.

Edited August 20, 2023 by PDCWolf

[Razor235]

14 hours ago, PDCWolf said:

It is also my opinion that the communication did improve at some point, but just like their game they had a massive regression, and now we're back to being tone-deaf again, just in a different direction which is not saying enough, or anything at all in some cases.

Oh I disagree completely.  I don't think communication has degraded at all since that little improvement.

I think that it's been incredibly illuminating in regards to the state of the game and its development.  Which is probably why it wasn't happening to begin with.

[Delay]

33 minutes ago, Razor235 said:

Which is probably why it wasn't happening to begin with.

Hey, let's not be that harsh, I mean... they did at least roll out a somewhat functioning prototype, right?

[PDCWolf]

3 hours ago, Razor235 said:

Oh I disagree completely.  I don't think communication has degraded at all since that little improvement.

I think that it's been incredibly illuminating in regards to the state of the game and its development.  Which is probably why it wasn't happening to begin with.

Yeah, they probably do convey more about the state of the game going silent and only talking about hopes and dreams.

Edited August 21, 2023 by PDCWolf

[Vanamonde]

Some overly personal comments removed. Please try to discuss the game without getting angry with each other. 

[cocoscacao]

22 hours ago, Stoup said:

Does this mean they have a functioning version of the heat system, but they're only going to enable parts of it as they go along the roadmap to fit with their specific milestones?

Probably not. If everything is finished, why would they add it incrementally? That would just make a very fertile ground for more bugs.

What I understood is that general foundation and design is in place, and they build upon that as needed. You won't get code for thermal flux calcs for colony parts (which would be useless/unused anyway).

However, given what the entire system needs to accomplish, I guess we'll see a lot of regression bugs with heat, on each roadmap step. Either that, or permormance bottlenecks. 

[GigFiz]

5 hours ago, PDCWolf said:

Yeah, they probably do convey more about the state of the game going silent and only talking about hopes and dreams.

While I'm not really arguing with your point either way, I would just point out that they did tell us that with summer and people taking vacations and such, there was going to be a temporary reduction in communication, (I disagree that it has been total silence about important things, though, but you are allowed your own views, of course). So hopefully it is just that, and they will return to that level of frequency and transparency soon.

[Strawberry]

Its also important to note that around a month and a half ago a community member was fired from the team, while the planned slowdown in comms for summer started before this, this definitely played a role in the recent reduction of large scale communications. 

Anyways to actually talk about the tweet, a bit ago we got confirmation that the purple heating isnt necessarily what eve will look like. IMO the most interesting thing about these pictures is how it ties into something Nate said a while ago. I dont feel like digging up the quote but a while back nate said something along the lines of (iirc, actual wording was probably very different but this is just to get across the vibe of the comment) "Different atmospheric compositions make different heating visuals. While this isnt something we plan on implementing for version 1 of heating, its something that we want to do in future development". The fact that they're showing off multiple colors implies that they may be planning to release the different atmospheric reentry effects first go, which is neat. Its scope creep but in a way I dont really mind, its not like reentry vfx is top of peoples ksp2s wishlists right now and it seems nice from a development perspective to have stuff just be mostly done and you dont need to poke and prod at it much anymore.

 

[Stephensan]

1 hour ago, Strawberry said:

Its also important to note that around a month and a half ago a community member was fired from the team, while the planned slowdown in comms for summer started before this, this definitely played a role in the recent reduction of large scale communications. 

Anyways to actually talk about the tweet, a bit ago we got confirmation that the purple heating isnt necessarily what eve will look like. IMO the most interesting thing about these pictures is how it ties into something Nate said a while ago. I dont feel like digging up the quote but a while back nate said something along the lines of (iirc, actual wording was probably very different but this is just to get across the vibe of the comment) "Different atmospheric compositions make different heating visuals. While this isnt something we plan on implementing for version 1 of heating, its something that we want to do in future development". The fact that they're showing off multiple colors implies that they may be planning to release the different atmospheric reentry effects first go, which is neat. Its scope creep but in a way I dont really mind, its not like reentry vfx is top of peoples ksp2s wishlists right now and it seems nice from a development perspective to have stuff just be mostly done and you dont need to poke and prod at it much anymore.

 

do we even know the entire composition of every single planet that has atmospheres? like non fan made in a way? cause who knows what funky stuff we are going to see..

 

also i think the purple is either going to be jool or glomo... i just have a strange feeling that we aren't going to see that color of vibrant purple unless we go far somewhere or somewhere we "are not suppose to be" imma ask discord after i send this but i doubt i get anything.

[Strawberry]

2 hours ago, Stephensan said:

do we even know the entire composition of every single planet that has atmospheres? like non fan made in a way? cause who knows what funky stuff we are going to see..

 

also i think the purple is either going to be jool or glomo... i just have a strange feeling that we aren't going to see that color of vibrant purple unless we go far somewhere or somewhere we "are not suppose to be" imma ask discord after i send this but i doubt i get anything.

Not at all, the simpson quote im referencing (again dont feel like pulling it up, probably from his ama?) iirc implied they were focusing on realism. I assume they have an internal picture of roughly what gases they were picturing per planet (for example jool is a lot more yellow in ksp2, making it look closer to chlorine). I doubt we’ll get specifics for the kerbol system (in game at least) as whatever composition you choose, it will be pretty unrealistic, and since the exoplanet designs we’ve seen have been leaning more towards realism, itd probably be pretty jarring.

Edited August 22, 2023 by Strawberry

[Dakitess]

I did not find a specific thread regarding the recent reentry effects pics we got.

I don't find them particularly beautiful / aesthetic / realistic / ... nor totally ugly, just very KSP1-ish and the same vein as the KSP2 graphics, very not subtle, to say the least.

I do hope that speed reentry as a trigger for this effect, will be increased compared to KSP1. I hate having HUGE plasma everywhere when ascending just because I use the optimal Gravity Turn trajectory : it's fine to heat up, but not to turn in a flame ball at all. I don't mind having less juicy reentry from orbit : it will add more chills and aesthetic if we got it less often, for deep interplanetary trajectory reentry for instance.

I remember asking the mod community about that in KSP1, IIRC we did not find a proper solution but I'll try again : is there a way to limit the appearance of reentry effect and heat glow to upper values ?

 

[PDCWolf]

10 hours ago, Strawberry said:

Not at all, the simpson quote im referencing (again dont feel like pulling it up, probably from his ama?) iirc implied they were focusing on realism. I assume they have an internal picture of roughly what gases they were picturing per planet (for example jool is a lot more yellow in ksp2, making it look closer to chlorine). I doubt we’ll get specifics for the kerbol system (in game at least) as whatever composition you choose, it will be pretty unrealistic, and since the exoplanet designs we’ve seen have been leaning more towards realism, itd probably be pretty jarring.

3 hours ago, Dakitess said:

I did not find a specific thread regarding the recent reentry effects pics we got.

I don't find them particularly beautiful / aesthetic / realistic / ... nor totally ugly, just very KSP1-ish and the same vein as the KSP2 graphics, very not subtle, to say the least.

I do hope that speed reentry as a trigger for this effect, will be increased compared to KSP1. I hate having HUGE plasma everywhere when ascending just because I use the optimal Gravity Turn trajectory : it's fine to heat up, but not to turn in a flame ball at all. I don't mind having less juicy reentry from orbit : it will add more chills and aesthetic if we got it less often, for deep interplanetary trajectory reentry for instance.

I remember asking the mod community about that in KSP1, IIRC we did not find a proper solution but I'll try again : is there a way to limit the appearance of reentry effect and heat glow to upper values ?

For KSP1 reentry effects there's only 2 parameters: scale of the effect, and color of the effect.

Color is driven directly by mach number (might even be just a raw speed value, faster = redder), however that and the scale of the effect are also modulated by altitude. You have to understand that the heating is not scaled but the visibility of plasma is. In real life you wouldn't see plasma until like 3000m/s, which is way above the speeds we orbit Kerbin at, so we'd basically never see the glow. That's why the speeds at which the effects appear in game were reduced, and thus cause the effect to appear on ascent where it instinctively shouldn't.

 

[Dakitess]

Yup I'm well aware of that and it's okay to trick the values so that we have some visual, but It would be way more adequate to get more rare visual effect with an increased trigger(s) to avoid being surrounded by plasma during ascent. 

[VlonaldKerman]

2 hours ago, PDCWolf said:

That's why the speeds at which the effects appear in game were reduced, and thus cause the effect to appear on ascent where it instinctively shouldn't.

Well, this is not necessarily a result of lowering the velocity barrier to plasma- when deorbiting you are going faster than on ascent (because you circularize above atmosphere) so you can in theory lower the v requirement of plasma effect to a speed which you are only likely to achieve on a descent.

I suspect that the reason the threshold was even lower is because they want the plasma effect to last a long time, and on a typical hyper-aggressive KSP reentry trajectory you slow down so quickly that if the v for plasma is higher than typical ascent speeds you slow down to slower than that really quickly.

One way to solve that problem would be to make reentry less forgiving, so that players have to take less aggressive trajectories and thus slow down slower —> plasma effect lasts longer, even with a higher cutoff velocity.

Edited August 22, 2023 by VlonaldKerman

[The Aziz]

Heating effect on ascent is a direct result of planet size. Orbital speed is waaay lower than first plasma effects would begin to appear on Earth. It had to be scaled so it lasted long enough to be believable, risky if not protected, but as a result we get heating on ascent, because we're moving much closer to orbital speeds, much lower in the atmo.

[Dakitess]

It would not be very scientifically consistent but one way would be to have different treshold when ascending / descending. Though it's a problem for atmospheric bounce, when you aerobrake without being captured by the atmo. It would not be cool at all to get reentry effect and all of sudden when vertical velocity hits 0.1 m/s positive, it stops. In this case, some edge situation would help, like a proportionnal treshold to the positive vertical speed. But that sounds a bit too complicated haha.

I stick to the fact that I would be plenty happy with more rare and less long effect. It would only make reentry effect more valuable, more impactful. You don't need the visual to say "hey it's hot, you should have protection" when... There is actually no need at all for protection. Even if they make reentry heat penalty 2x more strong, there is still some margin I'd say.