Places to hide if there's a nuclear blast?

[kerbiloid]

1 hour ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

3.  Fallout is generally only lethal if you ingest radioactive particles (breathing, drinking, eating) - because it cooks you from the inside.  Slowly. Heavy metal poison is a longer term issue, but also a concern. 

Only weeks later.

Staying more than two or three days in a typical dungeon vault right outside of its overpressure damage range is as deadly as getting out in first few hours, due to the fallout radiation, passing from top. It will just let you get sieverts instead of kilosieverts.

That's why the typical vault is not purposed for sitting inside and is not equipped with supplies, but instead you are told to have your own two-day food supply. Because two days later you should get out and walk away from the affected area.

The same about the tanks and other such shelters.

1 hour ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

Primary effect is no different than any other explosive - with the exception of scale.  

If the nuke is nuked at the optimal altitude, its direct and reflected spherical shockwaves meet and form a cylindric shockwave, which has a longer range.

The same for conventional explosives, but the scale turns tens of meters into kilometers.

1 hour ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

Modern tanks use overpressure to reduce the risk of #3. 

Only to let you not inhale the radioactive particles to where they stay forever not forever for a while for a not so long but sad while.

The fallout on top still keeps irradiating you from above, but the tank armor reduces is by a ten of times, letting you finish the combat task before being dismissed.
As the anti-tank nukes are to be exploded in midair, and have low yield, and in case of neutron ones have decreased fallout, so the fallout is dangerous for a tank mostly not from "its" nuke, but when it's crossing the area after the previous nuke.
This means that: the crew is irradiated from below (where any tank, including M1, has a tin armor) and from around due to the cloud of radioactive dust, raised by their tracks.
So, as the Soviet standards were teaching, a tank battalion lifespan in a WWIII is 5 minutes. The air filtering  just lets spend them with purpose.

On 9/22/2023 at 2:23 PM, SunlitZelkova said:

So would be possible to damage the neutron protection with an HE shell or near miss from gun or rocket artillery and thus “poke a hole” for a nuclear weapon’s radiation to hurt the crew?

The anti-tank nukes exist exactly for the case when you don't have enough HE shells to pierce them without the nukes.

Edited September 23, 2023 by kerbiloid

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

47 minutes ago, kerbiloid said:

The air filtering  just lets spend them with purpose

Hence my 'said with irony'.  I'm fairly certain most people's reactions to being nuked (presumes survival) isn't to remain 'mission focused'. 

Plans on paper rarely reflect reality on the ground. 

... 

Ofc if I'd survived a Nuke and subsequently saw the other team trundling in my direction, I'd feel both offended and angry.  Having a target for those emotions might give me something to do. 

(maybe paper plans are on to something after all...) 

51 minutes ago, kerbiloid said:

the typical vault is not purposed for sitting inside and is not equipped with supplies, but instead you are told to have your own two-day food supply. Because two days later you should get out and walk away from the affected area

Very good point.  Anyone planning to survive a close proximity Nuke attack should keep this in mind.  And pray for rain.  Lots of rain. 

[magnemoe]

1 hour ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

This is the thing I constantly get frustrated with in nuclear bomb discussions - the over-emphasis on (over-concern with) the radiative effects. 

1.  Primary effect is no different than any other explosive - with the exception of scale.  

2.  There is a danger of immediate deadly dose of radiation for people who are outside the crater / thermal zone - but you generally need line of sight to the explosion as it happens = nothing substantial between you and it as it happens, and are often in the 'secondary overpressure' zone (flying debris) anyway.  Far enough away and you get a less than lethal dose.  This opportunity is gone within seconds - so if you hear the boom and then go look?  You are fine.  

3.  Fallout is generally only lethal if you ingest radioactive particles (breathing, drinking, eating) - because it cooks you from the inside.  Slowly. Heavy metal poison is a longer term issue, but also a concern. 

... 

Modern tanks use overpressure to reduce the risk of #3. 

Being in the tank at all is like #2.  You have something between you and the bomb.  You have broken LOS. 

Being in a tank with specific shielding layers is because the designers anticipate that the tank itself (or the formation it's in) is the actual target of the bomb and thus it and the crew might be really close to the crater zone and thus hope that the armor will protect against #1 and the higher likelihood of #2 due to proximity. 

So - if you are close enough to a nuclear blast in the tank where surviving #1 is a concern, then shielding from #2 is maybe beneficial to letting you continue mission (said ironically).  (or not, CW concern was that the Soviets would lead with tac-nukes and follow up with massive tank assault, so if you live you might still need to defend yourself vs the Red Horde). 

... 

But as to the specific question: if you can hit a tank with something hard enough to punch a hole in the radiation protection layer - why Nuke?  Just enjoy the turret-toss and keep the bad bomb in storage! 

Note that the radiation does not scale like the fireball and the blast. In an tank I think you could get radiation poisoning from an small tactical nuke of 10 kiloton, with say an half megaton bomb the blast and heat would kill you even in an tank before radiation could. 

Read that old battleships who was nuked in an US test was still floating but radioactive, was this because of neutron radiation or just fallout?
Yes they was floating but anything non armored was junk so no radar or optical rang finders in the masts, you have rangefinders in the turrets who might survived but they are low down and you AAA is also very damaged. 
Now the Iowa class battleships who was the only one used after WW 2 would probably not survive this as their armor is internally, its an void who is tanks deeper down between the hull and the armor and the armor plates are not watertight. 
On the other hand the US developed and nuclear shell for the Iowas guns, this become available after the last of the class was mothballed after the Korean war, and was removed before Iowas was reactivated for the Vietnam war. 
Money well spent. 

[kerbiloid]

54 minutes ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

I'm fairly certain most people's reactions to being nuked (presumes survival) isn't to remain 'mission focused

Not a problem.

Spoiler

(The original package is looking too forum rules breaking.)

44 minutes ago, magnemoe said:

was this because of neutron radiation or just fallout?

Radioactive water.

[DDE]

3 hours ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

CW concern was that the Soviets would lead with tac-nukes and follow up with massive tank assault

...through potentially high-rad zones, including areas of deliberately intensified fallout. The US Army Chemical Corps even had a dirty bomb program at some point.

With hand-held radioactive fallout projectors.

Yeah, that wasn't a good idea.

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

6 minutes ago, DDE said:

...through potentially high-rad zones, including areas of deliberately intensified fallout. The US Army Chemical Corps even had a dirty bomb program at some point.

With hand-held radioactive fallout projectors.

Yeah, that wasn't a good idea.

I remember reading the CW NBC training manuals and thinking 'this is gonna suuuuuck'. 

So very glad cooler heads have prevailed thus far! 

On another note: anyone here remember 'Twilight 2000'?

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twilight:_2000

 

[darthgently]

7 minutes ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

I remember reading the CW NBC training manuals and thinking 'this is gonna suuuuuck'. 

So very glad cooler heads have prevailed thus far! 

On another note: anyone here remember 'Twilight 2000'?

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twilight:_2000

 

I think that may be Michael Jackson with the machine pistol (hybrid of Uzi, M3 grease gun, a Calico, and a power drill?). It probably is a real gun that l don't know about.

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

On 9/21/2023 at 11:10 AM, Minmus Taster said:

Obviously this still depends on luck a lot of the time but I was wondering if there any specific locations that a particularly good at keeping the people inside safe. One that I'm particularly interested in is subway stations and if the shock wave would still be lethal on the bottommost level. Also I heard that just lying down could allow most of the blast to pass over you. Could this work? Are there any better options for protection?

Hey - FYI, back when NK started threatening to Nuke California, the Ventura County Gov't put this out.  It's modern and a great place to start 

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://s29710.pcdn.co/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/VC-Nuclear-Safety-18pp-Education-Guide-Downloadable-FINAL.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjjqfL_qcGBAxXbjYkEHRTeDyEQFnoECBEQAQ&usg=AOvVaw1TSd_62zTvRvimK9GFOXeT

 

2 minutes ago, darthgently said:

I think that may be Michael Jackson with the machine pistol (hybrid of Uzi, M3 grease gun, a Calico, and a power drill?). It probably is a real gun that l don't know about.

Yeah, the whole vibe reminds me of the talented HS artist who watched a lot of (if I say Bad 80s, in the same sentence am I just repeating myself???) low budget movies 

[DDE]

Sorry if I burst in with a completely off-topic post, but an "advice animal" meme on VK caught my attention.

"So a cockroach can survive a nuclear war, but not being hit with a newspaper? Truly the pen is mightier than the sword..."

[Superfluous J]

3 hours ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

On another note: anyone here remember 'Twilight 2000'?

Yup. I played pretty much every boxed RPG that came out in the 80s.

I much preferred this one (both as a post-nuclear-war game and a game in general)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamma_World

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

7 hours ago, Superfluous J said:

Yup. I played pretty much every boxed RPG that came out in the 80s.

I much preferred this one (both as a post-nuclear-war game and a game in general)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamma_World

That's a new one on me.  I had a friend who was really into gaming back in HS and convinced several of us to attend conventions when they came to LA.  (we had driver's licenses, he didn't).

First one was a blast.  Discovered Warhammer RPG.  That was fun.  (Not the WH40k - never captured my interest). 

Second time there was also a model search going on in the same hotel... And me and the other two Seniors found better things to do than hang out with gamers. 

[darthgently]

11 hours ago, DDE said:

"So a cockroach can survive a nuclear war, but not being hit with a newspaper? Truly the pen is mightier than the sword..."

If talking palmetto bugs, it better be a stone tablet.  Stronger writing than a newspaper is required

[farmerben]

23 hours ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

Hey - FYI, back when NK started threatening to Nuke California, the Ventura County Gov't put this out.  It's modern and a great place to start 

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://s29710.pcdn.co/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/VC-Nuclear-Safety-18pp-Education-Guide-Downloadable-FINAL.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjjqfL_qcGBAxXbjYkEHRTeDyEQFnoECBEQAQ&usg=AOvVaw1TSd_62zTvRvimK9GFOXeT

 

Yeah, the whole vibe reminds me of the talented HS artist who watched a lot of (if I say Bad 80s, in the same sentence am I just repeating myself???) low budget movies 

Maybe its a plot to steal all the cars so that when cannibalism sets in they will rule the wasteland.

It should be possible to map gamma rays from satellites and create real time maps that you can use with real time driving apps on your phone.  But they just say tune in... as if we just rely on AM/FM radio.

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

1 hour ago, farmerben said:

Maybe its a plot to steal all the cars so that when cannibalism sets in they will rule the wasteland.

It should be possible to map gamma rays from satellites and create real time maps that you can use with real time driving apps on your phone.  But they just say tune in... as if we just rely on AM/FM radio.

You are a lot more confident in the survival of infrastructure than I am. 

... 

Analog skills of Gen X will be in more demand than ever, should such occur.  The killer app will be the ability to set up a multi-gallon per day water filtration system using wood, rocks, sand and charcoal. 

I'm qualified. 

[DDE]

18 minutes ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

The killer app will be the ability to set up a multi-gallon per day water filtration system using wood, rocks, sand and charcoal. 

I'd say that in a lot of parts of the world it's already in pretty intense demand.

Yesterday's discovery of the existence of a Soviet flotilla on the Amudarya during the War in Afghanistan ended with me looking up the current status of the river's drainage basin, the Aral Sea. The water situation in the region makes for some pretty depressive reading...

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

34 minutes ago, DDE said:

current status of the river's drainage basin, the Aral Sea. The water situation in the region makes for some pretty depressive reading

Yep. 

34 minutes ago, DDE said:

n a lot of parts of the world it's already in pretty intense demand.

Yeah - the problem is both scale and maintainability of donated systems. 

It's pretty easy to set up a system that will clean water for a single family.  But a village?  You have to think about so much.  Sanitation. Polluted water intrusion / protection of the source.  Collection.  Distribution.  Power.  Repairs. Cultural differences / attitudes. War. 

The technocrat savior (White savior trope) dropping off a self contained system for a village gets a lot of likes on social media has a high failure rate. 

Edited September 24, 2023 by JoeSchmuckatelli

[pk9sp]

If you live in an area with no subway, go into your basement and put your back to the wall closest to the point of detonation (preferably under a table or desk). If you don't have a basement, go to the area of your house with the most material between you and the outside, so the room closest to the middle.

[monophonic]

On 9/22/2023 at 9:45 PM, farmerben said:

The most dangerous fallout threat is gaseous iodine.  But that decays away in days.

And the latest info, at least where I live, says even that is only a concern for people under forty or so. Because if you are older than that, you will die of old age well before any cancer can develop from the iodine radiation. True or not, it's nice to be told there's an actual advantage to aging...

[kerbiloid]

12 hours ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

The killer app will be the ability to set up a multi-gallon per day water filtration system using wood, rocks, sand and charcoal. 

Weaklings. The Dune freemen do this without wood.

Also, they produce plastic out of sand.

Though, the Australians also can do it.
Though, they lack the sandworm spice. No perfect place in this world.

Spoiler

 

 

14 hours ago, farmerben said:

Maybe its a plot to steal all the cars so that when cannibalism sets in they will rule the wasteland.

It raises a phylosophic question: since what level of mutations, the eating of mutant meat stops being a cannibalism?

Cognitive abilities? But eating a mindless human is still a cannibalism, so not just this.

 

11 hours ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

It's pretty easy to set up a system that will clean water for a single family.  But a village?

They call it "well".
 

Spoiler

 

11 hours ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

Sanitation.

Fertilizer.

11 hours ago, pk9sp said:

put your back to the wall closest to the point of detonation (preferably under a table or desk).

Not sure if attaching the back to something solid is a good idea, due to the seismic shockwave.
The special bunkers usually have platforms hanged on springs as floors, and the classic Das Boot movie, iirc, has an episode where they are hanging on ropes by hands while being bombed. 

1 hour ago, monophonic said:

And the latest info, at least where I live, says even that is only a concern for people under forty or so. Because if you are older than that, you will die of old age well before any cancer can develop from the iodine radiation. True or not, it's nice to be told there's an actual advantage to aging...

Luckily, there would be many other factors to shorten the lifespan after the nuking.

Edited September 25, 2023 by kerbiloid

[sevenperforce]

On 9/21/2023 at 6:45 PM, SunlitZelkova said:

On 9/21/2023 at 11:57 AM, sevenperforce said:

The prompt radiation from a nuclear blast is really NOT a serious problem in most situations.

It can be. One of the crewmen of the Fukuryu Maru succumbed to radiation sickness after being exposed to fallout from the Castle Bravo test.

As @monophonic noted, prompt radiation refers to the gamma and x ray radiation produced by the warhead at the moment of the explosion. If you're close enough for that to kill you, you're probably inside the fireball and dead anyway.

Fallout radiation is definitely a problem -- just a slightly later problem.

 

[pk9sp]

On 9/25/2023 at 3:59 AM, kerbiloid said:

Not sure if attaching the back to something solid is a good idea, due to the seismic shockwave.

It depends on how far away you are from the point of detonation.