KSP2 Tech tree and For Science! VAB (and analysis)

[The Aziz]

2 minutes ago, Periple said:

Real space science is basic research, knowing more about the atmospheric composition of Venus won’t help design better space planes.

No, but it mught give you some insight on heat protection. Radiators, heat shields.. Depending on composition, maybe some exotic materials.. Think wider, what could you get from diving deep into the hellfire of Eve's atmosphere? Or better yet, settling down that liquid instrument thing into the Explodium Sea?

I don't want to be able to grab science from Eeloo (or the cold basin of Vall, I've heard there's one) to unlock tech that will allow me to survive on volcanic wastelands of Rask.

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, The Aziz said:

No, but it mught give you some insight on heat protection. Radiators, heat shields.. Depending on composition, maybe some exotic materials.. Think wider, what could you get from diving deep into the hellfire of Eve's atmosphere? Or better yet, settling down that liquid instrument thing into the Explodium Sea?

I don't want to be able to grab science from Eeloo (or the cold basin of Vall, I've heard there's one) to unlock tech that will allow me to survive on volcanic wastelands of Rask.

IRL space science doesn’t have much to do with rocket science at all! Just focus on making it fun and provide a rationalization if you have to.

Like, imagine that Science points represent engineering research funding you get because the scientific community is so excited about your discoveries. You can spend these funds on any engineering research you like, unlocking nodes in the tech tree.

I think this makes more sense than coupling specific kinds of space science to specific kinds of engineering. Like, how exactly  does a seismographic experiment on Duna help you build bigger rover wheels? It doesn’t make any sense either if you think about it! It’s just a game designer arbitrarily deciding that “ground experiments unlock surface tech, end of.”

[Vl3d]

5 hours ago, cocoscacao said:

Judging this image, a major difference is that there'll be multiple tech trees? Four separate ones in this case...

It seems that nothing has changed from KSP1 - manned still comes before probes.

All those years of player feedback... (I'm joking, probes are right next to it, you just need 10 science to unlock them).

Edited October 24, 2023 by Vl3d

[Guest]

19 minutes ago, Vl3d said:

It seems that nothing has changed from KSP1 - manned still comes before probes.

Kerbals have always been the star of the show in Kerbal Space Program.

[Vl3d]

4 minutes ago, regex said:

Kerbals have always been the star of the show in Kerbal Space Program.

"Am I a joke to you?!"

Edited October 24, 2023 by Vl3d

[Pthigrivi]

9 hours ago, Safarte said:

This is from the IG discord, this UI indeed shows transmission times only but it seems some experiments could have a "duration" too.

Yeah I certainly hope so. It definitely sounded from Nertea’s AMA that different experiments would require different amounts of time. What we haven’t yet seen but Im very interested in seeing are these experiments unlocking surface mapping and other flight information. Tying experiments to discovering information thats directly useful to players would go a long way toward science feeling like science and retaining its value even after the tech tree is complete. 

Edited October 24, 2023 by Pthigrivi

[Wheehaw Kerman]

10 hours ago, Periple said:

I think we should wait and see what they’ve come up with, try it, then give them feedback. This should be something they can iterate on fairly easily based on it. Getting too deep into it beforehand isn’t very helpful!

You think we would have learned not to infer too much from pre-release information by now :).  Or, for that matter, hype ourselves into frenzies…

 

[Pthigrivi]

Oh and is it clear exactly what separates each tab on the tech tree? Is it just that you have to go through "Power Launchers" before you get to the next tab? I guess Im also really interested in how they plan to deal with the interplanetary wall where players first get stuck in KSOI because they don't know how to transfer to other planets and then slowly grind out the entire tech tree without leaving because all that science is too easy to farm.

[mcwaffles2003]

45 minutes ago, Wheehaw Kerman said:

You think we would have learned not to infer too much from pre-release information by now :).  Or, for that matter, hype ourselves into frenzies…

Nahhhhhhh

5 hours ago, Vl3d said:

Is that aquatic sciences I see? Maybe that's where we get boat parts? (incoming buoyancy bugs)

[Kerbart]

1 hour ago, Wheehaw Kerman said:

You think we would have learned not to infer too much from pre-release information by now :).  Or, for that matter, hype ourselves into frenzies…

We're having fun! You know that ends when it's released. Then it's just misery!!

[Superfluous J]

From a science standpoint, the most realistic mode in KSP1 was sandbox mode. We've unlocked pretty much their entire tech tree and I don't recall any surface samples being returned from Pluto.

People complain that you can unlock the entire tech tree without leaving Kerbin's SOI. We've done it and have barely left Earth's SURFACE.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Superfluous J said:

From a science standpoint, the most realistic mode in KSP1 was sandbox mode.

I endorse this service/product.

[Kerbart]

3 hours ago, Superfluous J said:

From a science standpoint, the most realistic mode in KSP1 was sandbox mode. We've unlocked pretty much their entire tech tree and I don't recall any surface samples being returned from Pluto.

But not from a realism standpoint. KSP2 is the pinnacle. It's incredibly hard to get anything into orbit, let alone larger payloads. And missions will fail for the most bizarre reasons, often without prior warning.

[Superfluous J]

1 hour ago, Kerbart said:

But not from a realism standpoint. KSP2 is the pinnacle. It's incredibly hard to get anything into orbit, let alone larger payloads. And missions will fail for the most bizarre reasons, often without prior warning.

A) That's why I said from a science standpoint.

B) What you described sounds a lot like the history of Human spaceflight.

[Guest]

On 10/24/2023 at 12:21 PM, The Aziz said:

No, but it mught give you some insight on heat protection. Radiators, heat shields.. Depending on composition, maybe some exotic materials.. Think wider, what could you get from diving deep into the hellfire of Eve's atmosphere? Or better yet, settling down that liquid instrument thing into the Explodium Sea?

I don't want to be able to grab science from Eeloo (or the cold basin of Vall, I've heard there's one) to unlock tech that will allow me to survive on volcanic wastelands of Rask.

To point out a counter-argument that wasn't brought up yet: Replayability.

Going too much in the direction you're proposing means that there's a "Right way" to play the game and a right order of doing missions to unlock the parts.

"Like spaceplanes and SSTOs? Well, you have to go to Eve, otherwise you won't have enough aerodynamic engineering points to unlock parts from that portion of the tech tree."

 

18 hours ago, Vl3d said:

It seems that nothing has changed from KSP1 - manned still comes before probes.

All those years of player feedback...

Unironically there's a huge change front and center right there!
Liquid before solid and a decoupler from the start, that is going to allow way more creativity from the start.

[The Aziz]

26 minutes ago, Master39 said:

Going too much in the direction you're proposing means that there's a "Right way" to play the game and a right order of doing missions to unlock the parts.

"Like spaceplanes and SSTOs? Well, you have to go to Eve, otherwise you won't have enough aerodynamic engineering points to unlock parts from that portion of the tech tree."

That's why I'm (constantly) mentioning a loose connection.  Why Eve of all places? It requires aerodynamics so any atmospheric body will do, and for jet engines only methane is required - Probably plenty of it on Kerbin so that closes with a simple recon flight on home planet, unless you want some advanced tech (RAPIER?) - then you may have to go elsewhere. You would anyway, in the old™ system to collect points, in this, to collect data.

It's still not the thread where I described it in detail so I'll just stop here.

[WelshSteW]

 

Tbf I think we're all used to having KSP set up how we each like to play it, with the mods we like. The modding for KSP2 isn't anywhere near the level it is for KSP, and won't be for a long time, so we're each arguing that the things we like should be included in the base game.

My love of the ResearchBodies mod means I'd like the inclusion of telescopes, and of having to 'discover' planets and moons etc. But I understand that it won't be for everyone. I could argue that it should be included in the game, or I can sit and wait and hope that someone recreates the mod for KSP2*.

 

 

*or I could have a go creating it myself, but I don't think I've got the skills  

 

 

Hmmmm, I think I may have gotten my threads confused there, although that post does kind of still apply here! Sorry.

 

Edited October 25, 2023 by WelshSteW

[Guest]

24 minutes ago, The Aziz said:

That's why I'm (constantly) mentioning a loose connection.  Why Eve of all places? It requires aerodynamics so any atmospheric body will do, and for jet engines only methane is required - Probably plenty of it on Kerbin so that closes with a simple recon flight on home planet, unless you want some advanced tech (RAPIER?) - then you may have to go elsewhere. You would anyway, in the old™ system to collect points, in this, to collect data.

It's still not the thread where I described it in detail so I'll just stop here.

Yeah, I was just pointing out a possible pitfall.

Were I to design such a system I'd start with 3 or 4 different kinds of science to give at least some sense to the currencies, and some additional depth to the gameplay loop.

 

But even then, 1 currency or 10, it's all in how it's realized, there's some value in making it simpler, there's value in having it at least on a surface level work "like in KSP1" and there's plenty of design space to make things interesting with just 1 currency.

I like the idea of literally giving some weight to the science parts, having to design around them instead of them being barely more than 3D decals it's a good design decision in my eyes.

[Cracha]

I like the idea of 1 science currency for all experiments, but finding discoverables in specific environments will just unlock specific nodes in the tech tree. For example, finding an underwater discoverable (if it exists) will automatically unlock the Aquatic Science node. Or finding one on Laythe will unlock an aviation node.

[Jacke]

On 10/24/2023 at 3:48 PM, Vl3d said:

It seems that nothing has changed from KSP1 - manned still comes before probes.

All those years of player feedback... (I'm joking, probes are right next to it, you just need 10 science to unlock them).

This is a mistake.  Besides not being like it was on Earth, it means when learning the game, a new player is highly likely to kill a Kerbal.

It would be much better to start with uncrewed probe missions.  That allows a lot of variety and no Kerbals to harm while learning the ropes.

[Superluminal Gremlin]

I don't think this has been done yet, so I might as well.

A List of all sciencey-looking instruments in KSP 2 so far (Credit: Matt Lowne  ). Names are not confirmed, so I'll name them by either their look or action.

Science Jr - Appears to be flatter (See 7:39 for more)

Mystery Goo

Robotic Surface Sampler

Science Lab, With a Plant Experiment Bay. Whether this is integrated or modular remains to be seen

Camera (8:25)

Magnetometer with a whole bunch of other antennae (8:52)

Also at 8:52, a Diving Bell?? Unsure of purpose

Radiation Survey Experiment (8:54)

At 9:02, we see a funny-looking nose cone and an XS bay sort of thing. Could possibly be a thermometer/barometer made to look cooler,  or something else entirely. Also a SM grey box. Completely confused about the purpose.

 

 

 

[magnemoe]

On 10/24/2023 at 10:12 PM, Pthigrivi said:

Oh and is it clear exactly what separates each tab on the tech tree? Is it just that you have to go through "Power Launchers" before you get to the next tab? I guess Im also really interested in how they plan to deal with the interplanetary wall where players first get stuck in KSOI because they don't know how to transfer to other planets and then slowly grind out the entire tech tree without leaving because all that science is too easy to farm.

Yes, on trees you normally have to unlock the node to access nodes behind. In KSP 2 it looks like its an main progression bar on top and you select that other parts you want to unlock going down and to the right. 

[magnemoe]

On 10/22/2023 at 10:36 PM, Strawberry said:

Okay if you just want to see decently high quality images of the tech tree and the VAB here you go:

Tech tree:

  Reveal hidden contents

VAB:

  Reveal hidden contents

If you want to see my analysis of these images, just like read the next part of this duh. Obvious disclaimer, I am just a guy, I could be wrong about some, none, or all of this. This is also a wip build we are seeing, stuff may and likely will easily change. 

Through the VAB, we see 9 science parts, I am pretty sure that these are all the science parts as of semi current build. The reason why I believe this is we see 7 nodes on the tech tree with the science icon, which presumably unlock a science part. One of the nodes has a rover icon, but appears to be named autonomous imaging, which would fit for the camera rover part we see in the VAB. This gives us 8 nodes that seem to unlock a science part, and when we add the one science part we start off with, we get 9! This means that in theory, we can use the name of the science nodes and try to line them up with the image of science parts we see in order to guess at what they will do. I am now going to try to go through each one numerically and try and link it up with a science node.

Okay so the 8 nodes we see that probably unlock a science part are (going in order off of the tech tree here): Environmental science, Research miniaturization, Atmospheric science, Autonomous imaging, Radiation science, Orbital science, Aquatic science, and finally Orbital report. 

Science Jr probably doesnt line up with a node, because its probably the part we start unlocked. This part seems to work anywhere, the behavior of this part is probably the same as mystery goo from ksp1. 

Environmental science and Research miniaturization probably unlock the two golden XS squares we see,  I doubt there's much too special with these parts as theyre unlocked pretty early on in the tech tree. If I were to guess these parts gimmicks, one of them probably introduces return limits (ie needs to be returned to ksc), and one of them probably is the first part to have science over time. This guess is purely off the fact I feel like part complexity will be introduced gradually so it makes sense for the first few parts to be pretty simple. 

Atmospheric science is probably the fly by wire looking thing. This is because its a XS part (thus making sense to unlock early on in the tech tree), and its a nose cone, hard to get more atmosphericy then that. If I were to guess this parts gimmick, it probably generates science over time and needs to be in atmosphere (duh), so if you need a plane to analyze it.

Autonomous imaging is probably the camera on a stick. This is probably just the scanning arm from breaking ground. 

Radiation science is almost certainly the cylindrical thing titled radiation survey we see selection. idk if there will be anything too special for this, hopefully it needs EC or something. 

Orbital science is probably the other small sized part with all the stuff sticking out with it. Probably will only work while in orbit and over time. 

Aquatic science is probably the spherical one. It looks like a diving bell, so it will probably only work while in liquid. We know from code some parts will have a crew requirement and this part seems to have a door. You will probably need this one to be manned.

Orbital report is probably the one with the purple thing attached to it, I dont feel like this one will be too special. Has a door so probably has a crew requirement, also probably will only work in orbit.

Agree, science JR is the starting part. Also easy to integrate in an small rocket, also the first one is for atmosphere, it has that looks like an camera. 
2 looks like an updated  goo container
3 is unknown I say the goo would make more sense for science over time while 3 is instant, say pressure, temperature and some other data? 
4 is the robotic arm,  if you watch Matt Lowne's video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnmE5aubXB0 it looks like the arm can take samples. It does not seems like we get an science container so do we need to return the arm?
5 is stated as survey radiation, I would guessed an small telescope, probably for looking at an body from orbit. 6 is science JR
7 is the magnetometer, but might also be more. 
8 people call this the diving bell, but if so it need an ballast you can drop to return it to surface, its an 2.5 meter sized part. 
9 is the lab with an greenhouse and some other stuff. Science over time and perhaps other features. 

 

[Guest]

6 hours ago, Jacke said:

This is a mistake.  Besides not being like it was on Earth, it means when learning the game, a new player is highly likely to kill a Kerbal.

It would be much better to start with uncrewed probe missions.  That allows a lot of variety and no Kerbals to harm while learning the ropes.

They kill a Kerbal early, they get desensitized about it early on.

Before a "Failure is not an option" kind of mentality kicks in, making those players play it too safe, killing the pacing of their growth.

Also, probes require the most parts and systems to understand, things like Ec production and signal that you can leave for later if you start with Kerbal.

 

The main change here is liquid before solid, which really opens a lot of options for the player without overwhelming them with probes.

 

[Superfluous J]

I love the liquid-before-solid change. Sure solids are easier due to "hit it and forget it" UI, it ends up more being "throttle schmottle back to the VAB to tweak the amount of fuel and/or thrust so you can try again"