KSP2 Tech tree and For Science! VAB (and analysis)

[magnemoe]

 

49 minutes ago, Master39 said:

They kill a Kerbal early, they get desensitized about it early on.

Before a "Failure is not an option" kind of mentality kicks in, making those players play it too safe, killing the pacing of their growth.

Also, probes require the most parts and systems to understand, things like Ec production and signal that you can leave for later if you start with Kerbal.

The main change here is liquid before solid, which really opens a lot of options for the player without overwhelming them with probes.

Agree, also in KSP 1, lots of the early and later science require an kerbal like crew observation or taking surface samples. Scientists works even better as they can reset experiments and do science on eva. 
Main benefit of probes is little reason to return them. Now this is technically true for kerbals to  But not in an way I would play the game. 
Yes you save some weight but not that much as no life support or quality of life requirements. 

Liquid before solid is also realistic. Huge SRB came out of ICBM. 
 

[Pthigrivi]

9 hours ago, magnemoe said:

Yes, on trees you normally have to unlock the node to access nodes behind. In KSP 2 it looks like its an main progression bar on top and you select that other parts you want to unlock going down and to the right. 

Im wondering if there may be other criteria for accessing the subsequent tabs, similar to unlocking research tiers by upgrading the R+D building in KSP1. That required money, which we don’t have, but maybe its tied into the mission system?

One thing thats a bit of a headscratcher is holding “Orbital reports” till the last tab. I wonder what that means?

Edited October 26, 2023 by Pthigrivi

[magnemoe]

4 hours ago, Pthigrivi said:

Im wondering if there may be other criteria for accessing the subsequent tabs, similar to unlocking research tiers by upgrading the R+D building in KSP1. That required money, which we don’t have, but maybe its tied into the mission system?

One thing thats a bit of a headscratcher is holding “Orbital reports” till the last tab. I wonder what that means?

This image has an requirement Mun landing on it  The previous is Orbital rocketry, who might well be putting something into orbit. The other don't sounds like requirements. 
You have somethings like basic docking but think it unlocks basic docking ports. 

And the orbital report was very weird as it sounds like crew report who is the most basic science in KSP 1 but this is at the end of current tech tree. 

Edited October 26, 2023 by magnemoe

[Mikki]

KSP2 must be accessible for new and likely very young players who are interested in orbital mechanics and space exploration.

The educational value of this game is what makes it unique, and i hope this forum will stay open minded for all player ages and motivations. I personally am very happy with the direction IG, T2 and PD are heading.

The miracle of KSP is simply the amount of ways it can be played, the only limit is the players own imagination.

On the new techtree and science progression system i`ll just add my two cents a say "don`t fix what`s not broken". So my impression is that it makes well sense as far i can see by now.

[Scarecrow71]

32 minutes ago, magnemoe said:

This image has an requirement Mun landing on it  The previous is Orbital rocketry, who might well be putting something into orbit. The other don't sounds like requirements. 

The question is whether or not a specific TAB has a requirement to unlock the nodes within it.  Orbital Rocketry and Mun Landing are nodes on the first tab, and may not have anything to do with unlocking things on the second or third tabs.  I agree that the placement of the nodes under the numbers for the other tabs might be a bit confusing now, but we will get all the information we need in December.

[Strawberry]

Im pretty sure mun landing is just a generic node to unlock landing tech. We saw the mun landing thing selected in the presentation and there didnt seem to be any special description or anything like that.

[magnemoe]

48 minutes ago, Scarecrow71 said:

The question is whether or not a specific TAB has a requirement to unlock the nodes within it.  Orbital Rocketry and Mun Landing are nodes on the first tab, and may not have anything to do with unlocking things on the second or third tabs.  I agree that the placement of the nodes under the numbers for the other tabs might be a bit confusing now, but we will get all the information we need in December.

I assume an Mun landing is required to unlock that node, not anything below it but to advance to it an further node on the top right. Kind of doubt they require specific planetary landings because of travel time. 
 

[Vl3d]

So is only the "Mun Landing" node required or is "actually landing on the Mun" also required? Because in the first case we can just do whatever for science points and unlock the tech tree, but in the second we have to actually do missions and explore (although we might not want to be railroaded on a predetermined exploration path either).

As with all things KSP2 until now, I'll just take what we are shown at it's most basic and simple face value. There are parts - now they're grouped in tech nodes. We unlock the tech nodes using science points gathered by doing experiments and missions or finding anomalies.

[Pthigrivi]

2 hours ago, Strawberry said:

Im pretty sure mun landing is just a generic node to unlock landing tech. We saw the mun landing thing selected in the presentation and there didnt seem to be any special description or anything like that.

This is what I think. Its listed as costing 80 science so I think it's probably a normal tech node. And Im not necessarily saying the tech tree absolutely needs to be gated by specific progress markers like landing on a moon or another planet. If its not something like that or a tie-in to the mission system Im curious both about the tab-based layout and how they're managing some of KSP1's biome-hopping grind problems. 

[regex]

1 hour ago, magnemoe said:

I assume an Mun landing is required to unlock that node

No. We've already gone over this, there are no mission requirements in this game.

[theJesuit]

On 10/25/2023 at 1:15 PM, Superfluous J said:

From a science standpoint, the most realistic mode in KSP1 was sandbox mode. We've unlocked pretty much their entire tech tree and I don't recall any surface samples being returned from Pluto.

People complain that you can unlock the entire tech tree without leaving Kerbin's SOI. We've done it and have barely left Earth's SURFACE.

Career mode with the science from Kerbalism Simplex and with AngleCan Progression FTW, one of my TechTrees and 50% science setting FTW. #shamelessplug

  

On 10/24/2023 at 11:11 PM, Periple said:

Real space science is basic research, knowing more about the atmospheric composition of Venus won’t help design better space planes.

I disagree - especially if you are looking to make better spaceplanes for flying on Venus.

Knowing the atmospheric conditions of Mars meant that engineers could design the current Mars Helicopter.

 

[magnemoe]

5 hours ago, regex said:

No. We've already gone over this, there are no mission requirements in this game.

Ok, it this is from the devs? I based mine after Math Lowne's comment in his video. 
I say I'm happy its no such constrains. Yes the Mun is somewhere you would land anyway but having to wait for an Duna mission to unlock more of the tree would be frustrating. 

[PicoSpace]

So my question is this... What if I don't want to land on the Mun (ala "Mun Landing" top Right under "3"?)
Is that unlocked by landing on the mun or does that give you something you need to land on the Mun?
I ask as I can land on the mun with the starting parts if I really wanted too... and I didn't see any mention of limits on VAB / Launchpad like we had in KSP1 which needed to be upgraded over time, I don't see indication of that here either.

I'm also wondering how much science you get for collecting science around Kerbin as in KSP1 its not hard to play it smart and unlock like 90-100 science in your first few launches.

[Periple]

14 minutes ago, PicoSpace said:

So my question is this... What if I don't want to land on the Mun (ala "Mun Landing" top Right under "3"?)
Is that unlocked by landing on the mun or does that give you something you need to land on the Mun?
I ask as I can land on the mun with the starting parts if I really wanted too... and I didn't see any mention of limits on VAB / Launchpad like we had in KSP1 which needed to be upgraded over time, I don't see indication of that here either.

I also hope they won’t force us to hit specific milestones like that either by gating in the tech tree or with mandatory missions! As far as I know, they haven’t said.

15 minutes ago, PicoSpace said:

I'm also wondering how much science you get for collecting science around Kerbin as in KSP1 its not hard to play it smart and unlock like 90-100 science in your first few launches.

Me too! I did notice that the cost for some higher-tier nodes is much higher than in KSP1 (I think I saw 4500 on one node). I really hope we’ll actually have to explore further out than the Kerbin system to progress!

[PicoSpace]

11 minutes ago, Periple said:

I also hope they won’t force us to hit specific milestones like that either by gating in the tech tree or with mandatory missions! As far as I know, they haven’t said.

Me too! I did notice that the cost for some higher-tier nodes is much higher than in KSP1 (I think I saw 4500 on one node). I really hope we’ll actually have to explore further out than the Kerbin system to progress!

I don’t mind specific missions for bonus science but if they stage-gate things like “must land on Mun” that will irk me.

that’s an interesting question, I think you will be able to max out the tech tree with Kerbol missions, I expect some people will do a speed run when 0.2 is released (assuming it’s not buggy), even I’m tempted to live stream such a feat.

[Periple]

1 minute ago, PicoSpace said:

I think you will be able to max out the tech tree with Kerbol missions

I hope at least some interplanetary missions will be a requirement for that. I really didn’t like that you could max it out just by tooling around Minmus!

[PicoSpace]

Just now, Periple said:

I hope at least some interplanetary missions will be a requirement for that. I really didn’t like that you could max it out just by tooling around Minmus!

Would not surprise me if a Jool 5 mission is all it takes…

My thinking:

Kerbin Flight Biome Scans

Minmus and Mun Landing Craft

One Way Eve mission with a Rover

Duna Touch and go for samples etc.

Jool 5 - Orbits and maybe return?

if that doesn’t do it then yeah, you’ll have to have more direct missions for landing exploring etc.

 

im assuming there will be additional parts released in For Science! For all those different ranked tiers or you’ll have a lot of empty slots.

[magnemoe]

1 hour ago, PicoSpace said:

So my question is this... What if I don't want to land on the Mun (ala "Mun Landing" top Right under "3"?)
Is that unlocked by landing on the mun or does that give you something you need to land on the Mun?
I ask as I can land on the mun with the starting parts if I really wanted too... and I didn't see any mention of limits on VAB / Launchpad like we had in KSP1 which needed to be upgraded over time, I don't see indication of that here either.

I'm also wondering how much science you get for collecting science around Kerbin as in KSP1 its not hard to play it smart and unlock like 90-100 science in your first few launches.

I messed up here I looked at this node, power launches, and saw the requirement Mun Landing and did not realize Mun Landing was the previous node, not landing on the Mun, who if was an requirement would been for Mun landing not power launches who I guess is 2.5 meter stacks. 

34 minutes ago, PicoSpace said:

Would not surprise me if a Jool 5 mission is all it takes…

My thinking:

Kerbin Flight Biome Scans

Minmus and Mun Landing Craft

One Way Eve mission with a Rover

Duna Touch and go for samples etc.

Jool 5 - Orbits and maybe return?

if that doesn’t do it then yeah, you’ll have to have more direct missions for landing exploring etc.

im assuming there will be additional parts released in For Science! For all those different ranked tiers or you’ll have a lot of empty slots.

I say an Jool 5 would easy fill it. 
Now we are just at the bottom of the tech tree. We misses pulse nuclear and more advanced engines for one and not sure how this will be balanced. Probably balance changes or expansions. 

[Mutex]

1 hour ago, PicoSpace said:

So my question is this... What if I don't want to land on the Mun (ala "Mun Landing" top Right under "3"?)
Is that unlocked by landing on the mun or does that give you something you need to land on the Mun?

The latter, I'd have thought. It says it costs 80 science, so presumably that means you have to spend 80 science to unlock it.

[Scarecrow71]

1 hour ago, PicoSpace said:

I don’t mind specific missions for bonus science but if they stage-gate things like “must land on Mun” that will irk me.

I actually wouldn't mind the option of having that done (probably be a mod at some point, but I digress).  I think doing that will force players like me who have done most everything to finally do stuff we haven't (like land on Laythe, or launch from Eve, as examples).

[PicoSpace]

10 minutes ago, Scarecrow71 said:

I actually wouldn't mind the option of having that done (probably be a mod at some point, but I digress).  I think doing that will force players like me who have done most everything to finally do stuff we haven't (like land on Laythe, or launch from Eve, as examples).

Return from Eve before you go Interstellar… Deb Deb would never be explored.

24 minutes ago, Mutex said:

The latter, I'd have thought. It says it costs 80 science, so presumably that means you have to spend 80 science to unlock it.

I guess, it’s just “odd” that one science mode is an action when the rest are not.

[Strawberry]

The mun landing tab doesnt seem to have anything special going on for it, and the description makes it sound like its for landing on the mun instead of something you get by landing on the mun. Im pretty sure its just named that to try and go "Hey new  players you should land on the mun now"

[Scarecrow71]

18 minutes ago, Strawberry said:

Im pretty sure its just named that to try and go "Hey new  players you should land on the mun now"

Or to tell new players "Hey, you might need these parts to land on the Mun".

[PicoSpace]

31 minutes ago, Scarecrow71 said:

Or to tell new players "Hey, you might need these parts to land on the Mun".

Given it’s the can and landing gear, I’m thinking it’s more “here is what you need to land on the Mun “properly””

[Scarecrow71]

4 minutes ago, PicoSpace said:

properly

Is there such a thing with Kerbals?