Life support?

[Bej Kerman]

54 minutes ago, Wheehaw Kerman said:

Yes.  Absolutely.

Okay, but have you actually played with a LS mod? Or is this just coming from the image you have in your head of what it might be like?

55 minutes ago, Wheehaw Kerman said:

Most n00bs will see Jeb asphyxiate or starve, nod, savour the drama, say “AGAIN” in an Austrian accent, and figure the system out.

Nope.

[Wheehaw Kerman]

1 hour ago, Bej Kerman said:

Okay, but have you actually played with a LS mod? Or is this just coming from the image you have in your head of what it might be like?

Nope.

Nope.  I only really started playing with mods a few weeks back.  Had a few bad experiences with some half-assed ones that didn’t survive version changes back in the early days, played stock the rest of the way.  If there’s a good LS mod you can recommend, though, I’ll be happy to give it a go and report back.

As to your nope, all I can say is that the absence of LS has bothered me from the start, since I was a n00b playing for the first time.  And as I’ve said, every improvement in KSP’s Cartoony Verisimilitude(tm) - reentry heating, somewhat better aero, comms, etc. over the years has only resulted in my upping my game via the loop I described to match the increase in difficulty, and enjoying the game that much more.

[Vl3d]

2 hours ago, Wheehaw Kerman said:

Most n00bs will see Jeb asphyxiate or starve, nod, savour the drama, say “AGAIN” in an Austrian accent, and figure the system out.

Problem is that you use your best calculations, pack extra supplies, do a 4 hour mission and fail right at the end because you did not get the ideal intercept and all your kerbals died.

[Bej Kerman]

1 minute ago, Wheehaw Kerman said:

Nope.

Okay then. I'd be curious to hear your thoughts though when you've actually interacted with the feature you're promoting for 2.

[Vl3d]

1 minute ago, Wheehaw Kerman said:

If there’s a good LS mod you can recommend, though, I’ll be happy to give it a go and report back.

Simplex Kerbalism.

[Wheehaw Kerman]

6 minutes ago, Vl3d said:

Problem is that you use your best calculations, pack extra supplies, do a 4 hour mission and fail right at the end because you did not get the ideal intercept and all your kerbals died.

Not a gamer, but would this not be what they call a “skill issue”?

IMHO, that would just be grounds for saying “AGAIN”, identifying the problem, fixing it, and giving it another shot.  In other words, exactly what we do every time a mission fails fatally through any of the other ways to die in KSP and we have to do it over, which frankly is a lot of fun and part of why the game is so successful?

[Wheehaw Kerman]

10 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

Okay then. I'd be curious to hear your thoughts though when you've actually interacted with the feature you're promoting for 2.

Insofar as the mod may not be exactly what I have in mind for life support in KSP2, I may be reporting as much on the delta between what the mod is and what I think it should be, but I will happily report back after some playtesting.  I have limited time over this week and weekend, but I should be able to get a few hours in next week.

[Wheehaw Kerman]

13 minutes ago, Vl3d said:

Simplex Kerbalism.

Roger and thanks.  Will give it a shot.  Are there any other decent LS mods?

[Scarecrow71]

5 hours ago, PDCWolf said:

Optionality is extremely damaging to the game on these big systems, much more during EA. Check CDDA: all the drama aside, if you make features toggleable, people will muscle-memory into leaving or turning them off, thus new features don't get used or tested. The dev had to remove the toggles for the features to get used at all, causing an outcry, sure, but a small one that died out in like a month. This is not even going into having to balance the game both (or n^2, based on number of toggles) ways, because without LS your rockets would be lighter, smaller, and you wouldn't be on a timer (assuming a good LS system) for your missions, meaning the game isn't just the same with LS off, it's a whole different experience.

You're not on an alleged 4th camp because ultimately it's not about a toggle, it's about LS not being in your game no matter the cost.

If there's one thing KSP2 is definitely looking like it's not gonna be, is difficult, so y'all can rest completely assured on that, plus LS was confirmed not coming long ago anyways.

 

This is a pretty damaging statement.  You are in the camp that everything should be forced upon players, including and especially those things that a rather large group of players don't want in the game.  I don't want LS.  At all.  It was handled in KSP1 as a mod, and that's where it should stay - as a mod.  If LS ends up getting forced upon us, then I've got a $50 piece of software that I'll never use again.  Why?  Because I don't want LS.  I shouldn't be forced to play a specific way because others want this in the game.  I mean, if that's the way things work, then why don't we add stuff that I want that nobody else does?

[Chilkoot]

1 hour ago, Scarecrow71 said:

I don't want LS.  At all.

I'm a huge fan of the USI-type life support - kind of "middle difficulty" compared to others, and deeply integrated with in-game resources, containers, production, etc.

I would *love* to have a well-tuned, ingrained life support system, but it would ruin the game for a lot of players who prefer to play without.   Modding it in will be disappointing, as it will never be perfectly honed and aligned with future development plans.

As disappointing as it is for me personally, the dev's definitely made the right choice leaving general life support out.  I will hold on to the dream of a "survival exploration" mode in the far future with individual/vessel LS needs.  It really does add a whole new dimension to play, and if it's ever made available, I would gladly pony up for the feature as a DLC.

[Chilkoot]

2 hours ago, Wheehaw Kerman said:

If there’s a good LS mod you can recommend, though, I’ll be happy to give it a go and report back.

USI Life Support is really great.  It makes the game much harder, but it just feels so... right?  Once you figure it out, you may never want to play without it.

[PDCWolf]

2 hours ago, Scarecrow71 said:

I don't want LS.  At all.

As I was saying, no 4th camp.

What's gonna be forced on us is whatever the developer wants. I doubt we can peer pressure them into doing LS and since they clearly have no plans to challenge players other than with basic physics, I'm pretty sure when I say you're safe. I will however hold the opinion that not including and enforcing life support is laughable for a game that has any hope of calling itself a space sim.

2 hours ago, Scarecrow71 said:

It was handled in KSP1 as a mod, and that's where it should stay - as a mod. 

On the other hand, I could tell you that you're actively making the game worse for people that want LS, and that NO LS could be a mod, as much as mechjeb is a no gameplay mod.

[Pthigrivi]

17 hours ago, Vl3d said:

Problem is that you use your best calculations, pack extra supplies, do a 4 hour mission and fail right at the end because you did not get the ideal intercept and all your kerbals died.

You would only have this problem if the game didn't tell you how much time you have. Any LS system would need to supply players with that information both in the VAB and in flight. You'll see exactly how long your LS will last and what your time to intercept and flight duration is. Just like dV its just an at a glance 'which number is bigger' question.  You'd never get 4 hours into a mission and suddenly and unexpectedly run out. I played USI-LS for years and I never had anyone run out because its right there on the screen, so you know you will have a problem long before anything bad happens. The worst thing that could happen is you might have to revert your burn if you did something odd and ended up with some wildly botched encounter.  More likely you could fix it with a small correction burn. You would however need a proper mission planner though to help find launch windows and set alarms so you'd know your total round-trip time on missions that aren't taking advantage of ISRU, but we need those kinds of planning tools with or without LS.

Edited December 6, 2023 by Pthigrivi

[Dakitess]

I really see it as an other kind of fuel, really... And it feels to me that people who don't want to bother with that are in almost defending Infinite Fuel since, damn, I don't want to bother with constraints. It's an hyperbole, an exaggeration, I guess, but we are not really far from this, are we ? Why maintaining the fuel constraints and not add something that is very similar and RolePlay / GamePlay relevant, which is the LS, just another resource, but not lacking interest since it's mainly depending on time rather than DeltaV ?

I really feel like having an alert "20% crew resource left - estimated at 1.2 years" is really cool as it might imply a trade off because of your tight initial margin : you have enough DV to "cut" the transfer trajectory with a high-energy fuel costly back to home, that might save your crew from starving. Or you calculate it well and you're fine, doing the initially planned hohmann transfer, which might be 95% of the time since you can take some margin and I don't expect LS to be very "sizing", very impactful compared to a fueled crewed interplanetary mission. Just... Just a ton or two of drymass that you'll consume along the way.

Yeah I don't really understand the reject of LS arguments. But it's fine, I just state that base on what have been written, I (I (I insist)) don't get how it can be a bad thing for KSP2.

I would actually add more relief to it, more constraints, while not making any kind of microgestion but rather some RolePlay relevant addition : crew sanity, especially, depending on available pressurized space for the total crew, and the mission duration. See in my previous message for "details".

Edit : and if it is made optional via a difficulty toggle, then it's pretty much like Communication, which is fine in KSP1, isn't it ?

Edited December 6, 2023 by Dakitess

[Periple]

11 hours ago, Scarecrow71 said:

This is a pretty damaging statement.  You are in the camp that everything should be forced upon players, including and especially those things that a rather large group of players don't want in the game.  I don't want LS.  At all.  It was handled in KSP1 as a mod, and that's where it should stay - as a mod.  If LS ends up getting forced upon us, then I've got a $50 piece of software that I'll never use again.  Why?  Because I don't want LS.  I shouldn't be forced to play a specific way because others want this in the game.  I mean, if that's the way things work, then why don't we add stuff that I want that nobody else does?

They can’t please everybody. The best they can do is try to please as many of us as possible. There are people who play with heating or CommNet disabled too. I expect a few of them will put the game down and never come back if they’re no longer optional.

The thing with modding is that it can go both ways. If stock LS is in, I have no doubt it will be modded very quickly to be more or less punitive or removed altogether. In that situation you would be in the same place the people who like LS are now — playing a modded version of the game. Would that be so terrible?

[Scarecrow71]

5 hours ago, Periple said:

They can’t please everybody. The best they can do is try to please as many of us as possible. There are people who play with heating or CommNet disabled too. I expect a few of them will put the game down and never come back if they’re no longer optional.

The thing with modding is that it can go both ways. If stock LS is in, I have no doubt it will be modded very quickly to be more or less punitive or removed altogether. In that situation you would be in the same place the people who like LS are now — playing a modded version of the game. Would that be so terrible?

Modding is supposed to add to the game, not take away from it.

[Periple]

49 minutes ago, Scarecrow71 said:

Modding is supposed to add to the game, not take away from it.

I know a whole bunch of very popular mods that take away from games. They mostly take away clothes though!

Edit: Less facetiously, mods that disable features aren't at all uncommon. Here's a fairly popular example for Skyrim for example: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/66216/

Edited December 6, 2023 by Periple

[Sans]

On 11/13/2023 at 5:40 PM, Periple said:

I'm also expecting that CommNet won't even work over interstellar distances

Nate explained in KSP 2 Feature video that we would go and create a new KSC. I believe CommNet will certainly go from this extraterrestrial KSC. Tho it seems logic to have a signal back to kerbin, otherwise the tech unlocked in other interstellar system would be unusable on Kerbol (if we forgot the fact that we'll need exotic ressources to build them back on kerbol)

[Pthigrivi]

8 hours ago, Dakitess said:

Why maintaining the fuel constraints and not add something that is very similar and RolePlay / GamePlay relevant, which is the LS, just another resource, but not lacking interest since it's mainly depending on time rather than DeltaV ?

Thats the really cool thing about LS, that it really puts the time back in spacetime. Making time a visceral component of gameplay really changes the way you understand speed and orbits and the magnitude of some of these distances. You start to feel the difference between a trip to Minmus and and trip to Jool. You get that same kind of 'click' understanding the relationship between time and space and velocity that you get from understanding dV and orbital mechanics. That seems like a core goal in this game and it be a shame to miss that opportunity. 

Edited December 6, 2023 by Pthigrivi

[Chilkoot]

14 minutes ago, Pthigrivi said:

[...] it really puts the time back in spacetime.  Making time a visceral component of gameplay really changes the way you understand speed and orbits and the magnitude of some of these distances.

Have to agree with this.  I watch my kids play (no LS) without regard for warping or mission concurrency planning, etc., and it feels really watered-down.   It flies in the face even of having unmanned parts - if Kerbals are immortal, why launch a probe ever?

There's a magic to the challenge of prepping for a long-distance crewed mission... getting the recycling and food production right, habitation, etc.  Cramming a crew of Kerbals in a single can for literally years feels like cheating.  This is why we send uncrewed probes to Jupiter and Pluto, and why a crewed mission to Mars is such a big deal - with commensurate level of accomplishment for pulling it off!

I know it's not for everyone, and agree that it must be optional and not require mods to remove it.  But for those who have tried it, forcing us to use a 3rd-party addon (which may or may not have any kind of support, integration, etc.) is a real let down.  Make it DLC if necessary, sure, but the game does feel empty without it.

Edited December 6, 2023 by Chilkoot

[Bej Kerman]

1 minute ago, Chilkoot said:

Have to agree with this.  I watch my kids play (no LS) without regard for warping or mission concurrency planning, etc., and it feels really watered-down.   It flies in the face even of having unmanned parts - if Kerbals are immortal, why launch a probe ever?

Because you need a signal to use a probe.

[Chilkoot]

2 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

Because you need a signal to use a probe.

*Optionally

[Scarecrow71]

36 minutes ago, Chilkoot said:

I watch my kids play (no LS) without regard for warping or mission concurrency planning, etc.

Do you or your kids allow revert to launch/vab?  Do you allow your Kerbals to respawn?  These are all options that one may or may not use, but by the logic you provided above you can simply launch without regard for whether or not the mission will succeed because you can simply "reset" and try again.  With no adverse or long-term effects.

[mattihase]

Life Support very much risks the fate of career mode in KSP1, in that if it ends up tedious or annoying it could just end up being something that many people won't play with and a terrible option for people new to the game, which is one of the core foci of KSP2 at the moment.

So for stock life support we'd likely get something explicitly accessible and forgiving rather than something complex or punishing. I would imagine something along the lines of simply adding a "life support" energy drain to capsules that if turned off for a day puts kerbals into a dormant state where the only thing they can do is walk around and grab ladders (if caught out on EVA), or something like that, until the power is back.

At the end of the day, regardless of whether LS gets introduced to stock, if you want hardcore life support, you're gonna have to get it from a mod anyway.

[mattihase]

so if you have any cool ideas for it best to write them down, maybe get programming.