I like Science, but I've run dry

[ApexAZ]

I managed to get to Mun and Minmus and do the major science missions around those, but now I am stuck.  I am down to two missions: the Duna discovery mission and the "Lil Chonker" mission.  I can't seem to succeed in either. 

I have medium rockets unlocked, but can't seem to lift a 200 ton lander on Minmus and wondering if I need heavy to do that?  Actually, that isn't true, I landed a 250 ton lander on Minmus and didn't get the credit.  I am assuming it dropped below 200 tons when I finally landed.  So I built a heavier one, but haven't been able to get it to minmus without just burning the extra fuel anyway due to the weight/thrust needed to get it off Kerbin.  

For Duna, I didn't seem to have enough fuel to land properly (chutes don't seem to work).  So then I thought maybe I need to drop a rover or something, but realized I still need some sort of braking to land it safely.

Maybe I just need to learn more about how to maximize burn efficiency to do either mission.  Any advice?

Finally, some feedback:  I've run out of science and can't unlock more.  I've tried to gather some from various biomes on Kerbin and Mun, but it feels tedious.  Being newer to the game, I actually like the rails of the science progression.  This coupled with the training center has made the game a lot more enjoyable for me.  But now I just feel stuck.  I wish there were more landmarks, or missions to send me to different parts (biomes or regions) with more purpose.  Right now it just feels like I'm randomly trying to find science, which coupled with my frustration of Duna and Lil Chonker, got a bit tired of the game as a result.

 

[JoeSchmuckatelli]

Chonker is a 'build an absurd craft' mission 

[dmsilev]

You don't have to follow the mission tree to get science. Send some orbiters or landers to Duna and Eve and their moons. Visit Dres. All of that is doable with Tier 2 gear of the sort that you should have after doing the "mainline" Mun and Minmus missions. Once you've gotten some practice landing things on Duna, you can think about doing a precision-ish landing of a rover near the waypoint for the mission and doing that one. 

The Chonker is currently just a for-excrementss-and-giggles; the (science) return on investment is tiny. 

[The Aziz]

57 minutes ago, ApexAZ said:

For Duna, I didn't seem to have enough fuel to land properly (chutes don't seem to work).  So then I thought maybe I need to drop a rover or something, but realized I still need some sort of braking to land it safely.

for Duna you need both parachutes and engines. Only set up the chutes to open much earlier, as with a fraction of Kerbin's atmospheric pressure, they won't work that good.

[regex]

34 minutes ago, The Aziz said:

for Duna you need both parachutes and engines.

You don't need parachutes if you bring more landing fuel.

1 hour ago, ApexAZ said:

Finally, some feedback:  I've run out of science and can't unlock more.

Yes, you're supposed to go outward from Kerbin to gain more science. Try missions to Duna (hard), Ike (easy), and Eve's moon Gilly (very easy). You can also get some good science from an Eve atmospheric probe, just have it land on parachutes.

[ncw33]

More concretely: for LIL CHONKER you either need to dock in orbit (launch the chonker empty, refuel it in orbit); or wait until you get "L" sized parts.

Doing it with M-only parts, single-launch, is exceedingly hard. Just leave it until later when you get L engines if you don't fancy the struggle.

[kdaviper]

2 hours ago, ncw33 said:

More concretely: for LIL CHONKER you either need to dock in orbit (launch the chonker empty, refuel it in orbit); or wait until you get "L" sized parts.

Doing it with M-only parts, single-launch, is exceedingly hard. Just leave it until later when you get L engines if you don't fancy the struggle.

Only real issue I had with M parts ( which want really an issue with the parts themselves) was I didn't have enough control authority to keep it pointed retrograde. 

[Wheehaw Kerman]

17 hours ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

Chonker is a 'build an absurd craft' mission 

Chonker may be disguised training for Colonies.

[twich22]

For duna you need to approach the atmosphere at a shallow angle so you can aerobrake all the way to the ground, have parachutes for high atmosphere braking and low atmosphere, set them to deploy at any pressure and high altitude and have backups in case you need them, and you need a landing craft to give you thrust to slow you down enough to land safely as dunas atmosphere is too thin to slow you enough to land safely with just parachutes (although beware of overheating during aerobraking, you can avoid this by spinning your craft or bringing heat shields). 

 

For making large craft, the easiest way to do it is to assemble them in space with docking ports. sending up two 100 ton craft and putting them together in space is much easier than sending one 200 ton craft. 

Something that can make this even easier is sending up a craft that is dry, without fuel in it. That makes it super light. Once its in space, you can send up fuel ships to fuel it up again. now you have a big ship that would have been very difficult to launch in one go, but was easy to do with multiple trips. 

Sounds like you are doing all the right things! Keep at it!!

 

Edited January 18 by twich22
additions

[NexusHelium]

19 hours ago, JoeSchmuckatelli said:

Chonker is a 'build an absurd craft' mission 

You mean like, all of KSP?

[The Aziz]

5 minutes ago, NexusHelium said:

You mean like, all of KSP?

More like "build a completely useless chunk of mass made out of full fuel tanks because they're the heaviest and send it for no reason at all to a place". The other missions at least gave you a reason.

[regex]

6 minutes ago, The Aziz said:

More like "build a completely useless chunk of mass made out of full fuel tanks because they're the heaviest and send it for no reason at all to a place"

It's great practice for wrapping your mind around launching and delivering say, a Tylo or Eve return vehicle.

Edited January 18 by regex

[Wetapunga]

Run a Jool mission

You get a couple thousand science just with a dip through the atmosphere to aerobrake

[Fizzlebop Smith]

This is why I miss the procedurally generated missions / agents dynamic of the first.

 

There are a couple early Game builds on the forum. Some early builds on KSPBuilds.com might help as well. 

 

I'm not good at the aesthetics of rocket building but have completed quite a few missions and have been posting them on there. My builds are under Zebulon and all currently under tier 2.

I had to dock enough parts on the Lil chunk mission to allow for landing on uneven ground.

The 800 ton beast topped out at 425 after decel & suicide burn & several bits fell off 

Wish you luck.

Edited January 19 by Fizzlebop Smith
Forgot Something

[Mister Spock]

On 1/20/2024 at 5:19 AM, mikael said:

and use various experiments for maximum science collection.

How many such experiments are there? I've unlocked the Science Jr and the Science Jr Jr so far, and that's it. Do those count as different experiments, or are they (as I've assumed) the same experiment in different packaging? I'm sure there are other experiments in the tech tree, but I'm nowhere near Tier III yet. I've unlocked most of Tier I and a few things in Tier II.

[Rezania]

2 hours ago, Mister Spock said:

How many such experiments are there? I've unlocked the Science Jr and the Science Jr Jr so far, and that's it. Do those count as different experiments, or are they (as I've assumed) the same experiment in different packaging? I'm sure there are other experiments in the tech tree, but I'm nowhere near Tier III yet. I've unlocked most of Tier I and a few things in Tier II.

You might want to have a look at Science Archive and Orbital Survey to help find more science regions.

[ncw33]

You can get a lot of science from Science Jr (and Jr Jr - they are the same experiment). But completing the missions gives a lot of science too.

Just visit a few bodies with probes.

You can get to Tier 4 with one unmanned and one manned visit to each body, completing the missions as you go. You don't ever need to visit more than one biome on each body (unless you want to).

When you get to Dres (go there before Jool or Eeloo!), it does help to visit all 5 biomes, because then you'll complete Tier 4 straight away in one trip (Dres science is very overpowered).

[kdaviper]

7 hours ago, ncw33 said:

You can get a lot of science from Science Jr (and Jr Jr - they are the same experiment). But completing the missions gives a lot of science too.

Just visit a few bodies with probes.

You can get to Tier 4 with one unmanned and one manned visit to each body, completing the missions as you go. You don't ever need to visit more than one biome on each body (unless you want to).

When you get to Dres (go there before Jool or Eeloo!), it does help to visit all 5 biomes, because then you'll complete Tier 4 straight away in one trip (Dres science is very overpowered).

They tried to balance it but they forgot about Dres.

[Hanuman]

I think trying to balance and game-ify science is actual core of the entire problem.   Even in KSP1 Science wasn’t intended as anything that required much of any kind of “balance”.  Because it was never intended to be a game mode at all.  It was added to sandbox to show it off on the way to career mode and making a full game with an actual loss of game possible.  There were multiple avenues to unlocking parts because there were simply so many different things to explore, and how you got there having fun doing stuff you wanted to do became part of just your own gameplay experience.

Now they want a science progression enforcing bigger and further missions just to unlock parts and quite frankly that’s a mistake.   Science mode should be barely a step above sandbox in that there is no wrong way to play, you can’t lose, and you shouldn’t be able to pigeonhole yourself into there not being enough science to gather to unlock parts that you actually want to play and build with.

Yes, there should be part progression and unlocking, and I haven’t any issue with Science being measured by points.  But it should be actually really easy to unlock things by the amount of choices of exploration possible.

 I unlocked all of T1, almost all of T2, and just starting on T3 and now there’s a chunk of parts that I like to use when building interplanetary missions that are locked… until I do interplanetary missions.   So I just quit playing.  There’s nowhere near enough science doing the stuff I enjoy doing to unlock the parts I want to use to do the stuff the developers feel like I should be doing with my time instead.  So I don’t play it and spend time elsewhere rather than be told by some dev I’m playing KSP wrong. 

Science mode was a happy accidental discovery of a game mode and basically just sandbox with extra steps.   Trying to inject difficulty and introducing the scaling technology costs to enforce bigger and bigger mission scopes to further and further biomes, both misses the point of science mode and the forest for the trees.

All of that and without even touching on any of the awesome ideas for how science could be used instead.

[Jeq]

you could just refuel that minmuslander to get back to over 200t. And if you find it hard to launch heavy vessels from kerbin, you can connect upperstage parts at orbit, and launch vessel in multiple ascents. 3400dv against gravity and trought atmosphere is hardest part of journey.

Edited January 24 by Jeq

[steveman0]

On 1/23/2024 at 1:57 PM, Hanuman said:

Yes, there should be part progression and unlocking, and I haven’t any issue with Science being measured by points.  But it should be actually really easy to unlock things by the amount of choices of exploration possible.

 I unlocked all of T1, almost all of T2, and just starting on T3 and now there’s a chunk of parts that I like to use when building interplanetary missions that are locked… until I do interplanetary missions.   So I just quit playing.  There’s nowhere near enough science doing the stuff I enjoy doing to unlock the parts I want to use to do the stuff the developers feel like I should be doing with my time instead.  So I don’t play it and spend time elsewhere rather than be told by some dev I’m playing KSP wrong. 

Science mode was a happy accidental discovery of a game mode and basically just sandbox with extra steps.   Trying to inject difficulty and introducing the scaling technology costs to enforce bigger and bigger mission scopes to further and further biomes, both misses the point of science mode and the forest for the trees.

All of that and without even touching on any of the awesome ideas for how science could be used instead.

So, you think the interplanetary hurdle is too hard? What is holding you back? I felt a bit of pressure when I got to the Duna mission too, but I managed a solution to land and return with a kerbal. Considering you don't need to take a kerbal nor even return, I don't think it was too bad. Kind of like a mid-game boss of a challenge.

Additionally, there are plenty of ways to get science once you start going interplanetary besides landing on new bodies. T3 opens up new science options that require little more than orbitting. If you're missing something you need for a Duna landing, you have other ways to get science. Besides, Ike, Gilly, and Dres are all pretty reasonable alternatives that can provide a good science boost if there was something specific that you couldn't overcome due to Duna's atmospher or gravity.

That said, the game offering guidance on transfer windows will be critical for new players unaware of the requirements for interplanetary transfers. Parts in early T3 should be plenty, perhaps only if the build is a bit more Kerbal than an expetienced player could manage.

[Hanuman]

18 hours ago, steveman0 said:

So, you think the interplanetary hurdle is too hard? What is holding you back? I felt a bit of pressure when I got to the Duna mission too, but I managed a solution to land and return with a kerbal. Considering you don't need to take a kerbal nor even return, I don't think it was too bad. Kind of like a mid-game boss of a challenge.

Additionally, there are plenty of ways to get science once you start going interplanetary besides landing on new bodies. T3 opens up new science options that require little more than orbitting. If you're missing something you need for a Duna landing, you have other ways to get science. Besides, Ike, Gilly, and Dres are all pretty reasonable alternatives that can provide a good science boost if there was something specific that you couldn't overcome due to Duna's atmospher or gravity.

That said, the game offering guidance on transfer windows will be critical for new players unaware of the requirements for interplanetary transfers. Parts in early T3 should be plenty, perhaps only if the build is a bit more Kerbal than an expetienced player could manage.

I didn’t say that it was too hard.  I said that the parts I enjoy using to build craft for interplanetary missions are locked until I complete interplanetary missions, and that was not fun, which led me to being bored and finding other things to do with my time instead.

That isn’t an issue with difficulty or complexity.  There are no loss conditions and players can revert mission flights.  It’s a systemic issue that they’ve created, whether it’s through the streamlining and removal of early experiments, the lack of repeatable visits to ‘mine’ for more, or the escalating tier costs or the confluence of all of it.  

The missions already exist to walk the player along a path that creates a story that the devs want to tell.   It does not need to be reflected in unlocking tech parts as well, and I’m arguing that it actually shouldn’t be.   My argument is that the science and R&D system should allow a progression of part unlocks that have more tolerance for varied playstyles.   As I’ve written before, a hundred hours creating missions and craft exploring all parts of Kerbin is currently worth a fraction of a 30 minute transit and return from Duna, and that is just goofy.

It just seems like that is against the spirit of the game to me.  Like it’s going from “What did you do in KSP today?” to “What boxes did you tick off today?” or “How did you complete the mission we gave you?”.   By pairing their story path with their technology path they’re going to make dead ends for players who wander off.   And not penalizing that behavior is one of the things that has always made KSP special, at least to me.

[steveman0]

What parts are these and why are they locked?  You ran completely dry of science and couldn't rush the specific tech?  The late game tech is supposed to be a carrot to keep you going though.  While it might be a deterrent for you, completing the mission was a huge goal for me precisely because I knew the science boost was going to get me some great tech to go further.

It sounds like that your general concern would be easily solved by simply turning up the science rewards so that you can unlock more parts, sooner. Or alternatively, simply playing sandbox mode.  I think as it stands, the progression pace is challenging, but fair as a means to test your skill and understanding using the limited tech that is available as intended. 

Having seen some more videos of more experienced players than me, I've found just how much is possible with even just tier 1 tech.  I learned a lot in just the last few weeks getting back into the game.  I only played about 150 hours of the original and still had a lot to learn.  I have pushed to interplanetary missions where I didn't in the original.  This was in part because I had good challenges and rewards for doing so.  Part of this is because of the learning that I got from these limitations.  It's trivial to do a lot of missions once you have late game tech.  It's when you are operating under the limited tech that you will refine your skills the most.  Simply allowing players access to the late game tech is a recipe for impeding the development of their skills rather than challenging them to work within the constraints.

[Hanuman]

They’re locked because they cost thousands and thousands of points of science and thanks to the scaling that they’re using to differentiate tiers there doesn’t exist enough science to be able to pick and choose and experiment with different pathways through this tech tree.   They have inadvertently created a “right” way to play (send kerbals not probes + bring back data + further is more)  and if that’s the intention I neither think that is a good idea nor in keeping with the spirit of the game.

I myself like using a fair amount of mk2 and mk3 spaceplane parts.  But that’s only a single facet of the issue, because as I have written this system penalizes experimenting with unlocking things without it being necessary to complete your next mission until you’re far enough on their breadcrumb trail to pay for it.  There looks to be roughly 8-9,000 total science spread across Kerbin,  the Mun, and Minmus.   A player will be able to invest and experiment in only so many ways before they hit a wall.   Roughly 1/4 of your total science available will be used just on getting access to T3 parts.  So as it is, here’s a couple of interesting road markers going down this tech tree:

For spaceplane parts:

1,860 science for the Mk1 spaceplane airframe and parts 2260 if you include Mk0.

8,760 science for Mk2 in T2 and 3

38,100 science for Mk3 in T3 and 4.

but more generally:

760 science before the second possible experiment unlock.

2,380 science in required unlocks to access T3

4600 science before a second experiment unlock that doesn’t require a specific biome

10,600 science in required unlocks to access T4

28,980 science before you get an aquatic experiment unlocked.

Again, there’s not enough science spread across all of Kerbin, the Mun, and Minmus to get anything in T4, including the science experiment for testing the largest biome on the planet, or to learn to build a space truck. 

Missons already exist as a means to push a player to go to a specific place or to push bigger and further.  That isn’t the job of the tech tree.  As it stands there are no early less productive or efficient versions of late game experiments,  Science returns on a revisit go to zero.   Multiple experiments that could have been used to overlap and revisit biomes with new experiments were removed in favor of the one click box tick arcade game solution.  Cost scaling introduces logical problems like needing to go to Duna before you can build a jumbo jet.  That isn’t a skill test.  It’s an oversight.

I’m glad that it provoked a positive response from you,  but you are not everyone and experimentation and the narrative creation that comes from those successes and failures are a key component to what makes KSP so personalized and special to players.   Penalizing experimentation with part unlocks is a mistake.

I do realize that if I would simply give in and play the game the way the devs wanted me to, it would all magically work.  But that’s not the point of a beta test and feedback,  and whether or not some people want to admit it, this IS a non-release beta.  I’ll even go so far as to say that’s also not the kind of quality I want to see out of KSP science, so I came and gave my two cents.

Judging from the amount of posting I’m seeing on the subject I don’t think I’m the only one that feels this system is off target from what’s desired.

[steveman0]

From all of this, my main takeaway is that exploration mode isn't for you. It sounds like the sandbox experience is more what you are looking for. The whole point of the exploration mode is to have a guided experience that provides challenges and incentives to experiment within specific limitations to develop your skills towards particular goals. If you want to bypass all of that to play anyway that you want to play, exploration mode no matter how it is balanced will never be what you want it to be.

If you just want to build big interplanetary rockets and go wherever you feel like it or construct a massive airplane for the sake of doing it, hop into sandbox mode and have at it.

From a design point of view, you shouldn't have late tier 3 parts before going to duna because you don't need these parts to complete a duna mission. If science was rained on you such that you could access all of the overpowered parts before you left kerbin, the entire challenge of interplanetary travel would be trivialized. Overcoming challenges is what makes the game, or any game, satisfying to many players. Many do not respone well to a directionless sandbox. This can be a substantial contributor to why many players, myself included, never left the Kerbin SOI in KSP1. From this point of view, I don't see any cost scaling problem with science. In fact, the cost scaling of the tech tree was precisely the solution needed to encourage more players away from Kerbin.

As far as I'm aware, colonies and interstellar won't be restricted to exploration mode. If you prefer sandbox mode, I don't think you'll be missing out on much if you stick to it as they continue to release new content. Don't feel compelled to play only exploration mode because it's the cool new thing with this patch.