Get the KSP IP to HarvesterR

[almagnus1]

As it stands right now, with the complete and total disaster that KSP2 is, the KSP IP is so severely crippled that it's likely Take-Two will never try to do anything with it ever again.

The single best thing Take-Two can do is get the IP over to HarversterR's company and let them take over the mess that is KSP2 and (hopefully) fix it.  I don't see another way forward for KSP2 because losing everyone that has worked on it is going to doom KSP2 to being this really bad remake/sequel to an amazing game.

[chefsbrian]

Best for you, maybe, but its probably the worst possible idea for Take2. Look at it purely from their perspective for a moment - If another developer picks it up and fails, it proves reasonably that they were way too ambitious and screwed up even greenlighting KSP2. If another developer picks it up and succeeds, it proves without a shadow of a doubt that they completely messed up something that could have been a profit generator.

Either way, letting someone else have it is a decisive affirmation that they have failed, at a time when industry wide investor confidence is very low. That would be an extremely bad idea for them, and the backlash could quite possibly force their hand on even more closures and cancellations. Meanwhile, if they just sit on it internally then it cannot get any worse for them. If they later hand it off to a new team when resourcing permits, any success or failure continues to be theirs, but doesn't draw any further major negative implications to themselves - they can more easily mask the cause of failure and just chalk it up to vision differences or transitional complications.

We're a minor party at best in the games equation now - The review score is already zero'd, so inaction can't get the community sentiment to be any worse. Any purchase that could be refunded already has been in all likelihood, so financially it can't get any worse for them. Franchise wise, KSP isn't very valuable to them if they can't make a successful series out of it, so us abandoning the franchise or similar isn't any worse for them. Simply put, we can't make a meaningful impact to them now, so we're not really being factored in.

[MechBFP]

@Bej Kerman this thread was made for you! 

[Bej Kerman]

HarvesteR's skill as a game designer is massively overstated, and he probably wouldn't be able to pull off more than what Intercept did.

1 hour ago, MechBFP said:

@Bej Kerman this thread was made for you! 

Cheers mate

[Scarecrow71]

6 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

HarvesteR's skill as a game designer is massively overstated, and he probably wouldn't be able to pull off more than what Intercept did.

Except...he did.  He and his small team came up with KSP1, coded it, created the artwork, rolled it out in early access.  I'm not saying he's the best game programmer.  But you have to give him props for what he actually did.  Unless you think you can do better?

[Bej Kerman]

7 minutes ago, Scarecrow71 said:

Except...he did.  He and his small team came up with KSP1, coded it, created the artwork, rolled it out in early access.  I'm not saying he's the best game programmer.

You have to appreciate that HarvesteR was responsible for the wobble problem in the first place, and that most of what you see in KSP 1 is just years of fluff that serves to avoid polishing the core gameplay. So the game runs terribly even by 2017-2020 standards, has a finicky and inaccurate impulsive maneuver plotter, spots where the terrain randomly opens up to abyss eternal, massive gaps in the parts list that even Making History fails to properly fix, a technical foundation made of quicksand, an awful anti-ergonomic UI, a paper-thin science mechanic, a very stupid and clunky aerodynamic model that literal amateurs have done a better job on, and so on. At least there's fireworks now. Yay.    Quite frankly, there's very little between 0.25 and now that's been added to the game that I wouldn't describe as junk served by Squad so they could procrastinate on bigger issues.

17 minutes ago, Scarecrow71 said:

But you have to give him props for what he actually did.

A technical turd. My props are better spent elsewhere.

23 minutes ago, Scarecrow71 said:

Unless you think you can do better?

Of course. Because when someone at a restaurant eats a lobster and later has to go to the hospital, the first thing the chefs do is ring them up and remark "just you do a better job".

[almagnus1]

23 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

You have to appreciate that HarvesteR was responsible for the wobble problem in the first place, and that most of what you see in KSP 1 is just years of fluff that serves to avoid polishing the core gameplay. So the game runs terribly even by 2017-2020 standards, has a finicky and inaccurate impulsive maneuver plotter, spots where the terrain randomly opens up to abyss eternal, massive gaps in the parts list that even Making History fails to properly fix, a technical foundation made of quicksand, an awful anti-ergonomic UI, a paper-thin science mechanic, a very stupid and clunky aerodynamic model that literal amateurs have done a better job on, and so on. At least there's fireworks now. Yay.    Quite frankly, there's very little between 0.25 and now that's been added to the game that I wouldn't describe as junk served by Squad so they could procrastinate on bigger issues.

A technical turd. My props are better spent elsewhere.

Of course. Because when someone at a restaurant eats a lobster and later has to go to the hospital, the first thing the chefs do is ring them up and remark "just you do a better job".

So have you done any dev work on mods before, or any dev work in general?

[Bej Kerman]

Just now, almagnus1 said:

So have you done any dev work on mods before, or any dev work in general?

Refer to the very end of the thing you quoted

[R-T-B]

26 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

A technical turd. My props are better spent elsewhere.

No offense, but if you didn't enjoy it at least somewhat, why are you even waiting for the sequel?

 

Yes it was a novice project but it was far from a turd overall.

[The Aziz]

He left the project a year before the IP was acquired by T2. He had no word on what happened to the game for 5 years after his departure. He wasn't there when the game was becoming more and more complex with everything between 1.2 included and 1.12, two expansions, console edition etc. So saying that he with his tiny team could handle the behemoth of KSP2 is wishful thinking at best.

[almagnus1]

9 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

Refer to the very end of the thing you quoted

Obvious question dodge is obvious.

[Bej Kerman]

20 minutes ago, R-T-B said:

No offense, but if you didn't enjoy it at least somewhat, why are you even waiting for the sequel?

Because of the (alas, foregone) possibility that it'd not run as bad as KSP 1.

12 minutes ago, almagnus1 said:

Obvious question dodge is obvious.

Do ask yourself what use is asking the proverbial customer what good they are at cooking, as if it changes the fact the food was bad?

[Pthigrivi]

To do what Harvester did was really pretty amazing. KSP is a truly unique and fascinating game and he's such a huge part of that, along with all of the original Squad members and many of the folks they brought on in the lead up to 1.3. I know it's not cool to say right now but I also think Nate and Tom and Shana and the intercept team had a really solid core set of goals for KSP2. I might have ordered the roadmap a little differently and leaned less on the lore-story aspect but thats personal preference. Keeping the core structure of vessel engineering and orbital navigation and applying it to colonies and resources and interstellar was exactly right. If T2 had given the time and resources to genuinely follow through it would have been almost exactly the game I'd always dreamed KSP2 could be. I just don't see a need to knock either one of them. 

Edited May 23 by Pthigrivi

[almagnus1]

8 minutes ago, Pthigrivi said:

To do what Harvester did was really pretty amazing. KSP is a truly unique and fascinating game and he's such a huge part of that, along with all of the original Squad members and many of the folks they brought on in the lead up to 1.3. I know it's not cool to say right now but I also think Nate and Tom and Shana and the intercept team had a really solid core set of goals for KSP2. I might have ordered the roadmap a little differently and leaned less on the lore-story aspect but thats personal preference. Keeping the core structure of vessel engineering and orbital navigation and applying it to colonies and resources and interstellar was exactly right. If T2 had given the time and resources to genuinely follow through it would have been almost exactly the game I'd always dreamed KSP2 could be. I just don't see a need to knock either one of them. 

Not really knocking them, but acknowledging that whatever team was in place for KSP2... is now dust in the wind.

Only team left that might have enough knowledge to right this ship is HarvesterRs team.

[Bej Kerman]

It seems people put Harvester on a pedestal because they want some kind of saint to kneel to. Even if said saint only built half the church they work at and the half they built is made of popsicle sticks.

[almagnus1]

13 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

Do ask yourself what use is asking the proverbial customer what good they are at cooking, as if it changes the fact the food was bad?

Armchair devs making wild claims about code quality mean nothing, especially when KSP1 is a stable thing on my system, and aside from graphical quality, is far superior to the cluster that is KSP2 in every meaningful way - especially when you're working with a modded KSP1.

[Bej Kerman]

9 minutes ago, almagnus1 said:

Only team left that might have enough knowledge to right this ship is HarvesterRs team.

Frankly, this kind of statement only comes from someone's fantasy where their idols (i.e. Harvester) are the best people in the world and are capable of anything. Sorry to point it out, but the real Harvester is busy on a daft little game about flying model planes around a tiny predetermined level.

8 minutes ago, almagnus1 said:

is far superior to the cluster that is KSP2 in every meaningful way

If you conveniently ignore all the ways in which KSP 1 is inferior. Frankly, they're both on par with each other. But saying that would mean admitting that Harvester isn't the best person in the world and doesn't have some magic pixie dust on him that'll fix the IP.

Edited May 23 by Bej Kerman
Typo

[R-T-B]

30 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

Because of the (alas, foregone) possibility that it'd not run as bad as KSP 1.

And here I thought you just liked the "Space aliens go to space, but are bad at it, help!" silly premise, Bej Kerman.

I know I do.

Edited May 23 by R-T-B

[PDCWolf]

Whilst I admire HarvesteR for what he did. He grew a little side project he was forced to do overtime at work if he wanted to progress on, to a massive behemoth that the literal biggest publisher in gaming wanted to purchase. On the other hand, it's also possible to recognize he wasn't the greatest at a lot of stuff.

I still do firmly believe that if we give him an intercept-sized team, he'll have a much better vision than Paul Furio on the engineering side and Tom Vinita on the feature lead side. He knew the mess he made, and he definitely is the most informed person to not repeat it. In fact, not only has he not repeated the same mess, but also evolved its systems on a much better product which is Kithack. It'll forever be the shame of ST/Intercept that with probably nearly 10 times the budget and alleged professionals, they couldn't even make the first milestone without their "sequel" breaking down and getting their studio closed.

On the other hand, KSP2 is unfixable, and even if you "fixed" it, it'll still be trapped in Unity, with the subpar joint physics that plagued 1. KSP2 has no fix other than being deleted.

 

[herbal space program]

The bottom line is that he was pretty clear he had no interest in such a project in his most recent interview, so I don't know what the point of even discussing this is. And what he actually did that was amazing is come up with a great game concept and get it (mostly) working, in a very admirable but ultimately kind of slapdash sort of way. Porting that concept to the world of high-end, highly produced, multi-title franchise games was never going to be an easy task, and it's pretty clear he's neither particularly well-suited to that role nor particularly interested in it. What he wants to do, and is good at, is coming up with solid  basic game concepts and developing them to an advanced prototype stage. What the KSP2 team was tasked with is a very different kind of challenge. 

[herbal space program]

4 hours ago, almagnus1 said:

the KSP IP is so severely crippled that it's likely Take-Two will never try to do anything with it ever again

Based on sales estimates, the KSP2 IP still has the potential to create about ten times more revenue than it already has, even if nobody new adopts it. They just need to get it right, and some of the elements required for that are there IMO, but others are still very much lacking. And the fact that you think HarvesteR could somehow save the day shows you don't really consider it a lost cause yourself.

Edited May 24 by herbal space program

[Superfluous J]

1 hour ago, almagnus1 said:

Armchair devs making wild claims about code quality

What is this thread - or every other thread on this forum - if not EXACTLY that?

"HarvesteR could have done better!"

Is this the same HarvesteR who didn't want to add QOL features for fear of ruining the "magic" of the game? Or the one whose orbit lines were so wobbly they challenged (but did not surpass) the rockets' wobbliness? Or the one with terrible texture and lore choices (like fuel tanks literally found on the side of the road)? Or maybe the HervesteR who pitched to us The Barn^TM and the idea that Kerbal XP gains should grant ISP boosts?

Note: I'm not the one who said all of that above, that was people on this forum who were just as mad at KSP as people here for the past few years were mad at KSP2. At least KSP survived long enough to reach some kind of finality in spite of it.

I loved KSP. I like KSP2. I could not code either. As time goes on, I wonder if ANYONE can - at least to the standards most of us would prefer.

Edited May 24 by Superfluous J

[Scarecrow71]

2 hours ago, Bej Kerman said:

Of course.

Prove it.  You continuously say how terrible both games are, and you have no problem telling everyone everything that is wrong with them.  So put your money where your mouth is.

2 hours ago, Bej Kerman said:

Because when someone at a restaurant eats a lobster and later has to go to the hospital, the first thing the chefs do is ring them up and remark "just you do a better job".

That is a lousy analogy.  We aren't talking about a restaurant where customers have no platform to voice their opinion.  Unlike this forum, X, Facebook, Discord, Instagram, et al, where we are all vocal and can express our like or dislike for everyone to see.  Not to mention that everyone at some point has at least muttered to themselves "If they think they can do a better job...".

1 hour ago, Bej Kerman said:

Because of the (alas, foregone) possibility that it'd not run as bad as KSP 1.

And you have established that you don't care for either game, that you think nobody could do this right, the devs are horrible, the people here are horrible, we all put HarversteR on a pedestal...and on and on.  So why exactly are you here?  If you don't like the games, and you have nothing constructive to add, and all you do is criticize every post, every thought, every idea...why are you here?  Is your only goal to just be negative and try to bring everyone around you down?

1 hour ago, Bej Kerman said:

If you conveniently ignore all the ways in which KSP 1 is inferior.

Ok, so time to show what you know.  If what ways do you believe KSP1 is interior to KSP2?  I will wager you'll say some form of "art, music, UI".  All the non-technical stuff that can be added to KSP1 through mods.  Am I close?

11 minutes ago, Superfluous J said:

I could not code either.

I, like you, know where my code skills end.  And for me, it is way before being able to code a full space flight sim.

Edited May 24 by Scarecrow71

[herbal space program]

10 minutes ago, Superfluous J said:

As time goes on, I wonder if ANYONE can - at least to the standards most of us would prefer.

It's an incredibly demanding physics simulation, that only gets harder the more demanding you make the rendering pipeline behind it. It may very well be true that the world of consumer-class PCs is just not ready for it yet.

[almagnus1]

4 hours ago, herbal space program said:

Based on sales estimates, the KSP2 IP still has the potential to create about ten times more revenue than it already has, even if nobody new adopts it. They just need to get it right, and some of the elements required for that are there IMO, but others are still very much lacking. And the fact that you think HarvesteR could somehow save the day shows you don't really consider it a lost cause yourself.

With how badly KSP2 has failed, I highly doubt we'll see TakeTwo try another KSP game within the next decade.

I don't consider it a lost cause because someone else may want the franchise and buy it off of Take Two, but their going to be taking a massive write down because their meddling with the studios is a large part of the failure.  I don't see that happening in the near future outside of some unrealistic pipedream.