Get the KSP IP to HarvesterR

[stephensmat]

KSP1 mods can get you a decent way to what we wanted in KSP2. Improved Graphics, personalized gameplay...

It makes me a little crazy that KSP2 was so close to Colonies. I wanted Colonies. Mods in KSP1 tried, but they were all landable parts. There was no Colony Editor to place things anywhere, there was no Orbital Shipyard.

...s'okay. I'm brave. I'm fully aware that it's just a game, and lives are not ruined by this. (sniff) I'm not broken up about this at all.

 

[m4inbrain]

11 hours ago, Bej Kerman said:

 

Of course. Because when someone at a restaurant eats a lobster and later has to go to the hospital, the first thing the chefs do is ring them up and remark "just you do a better job".

As someone who worked in that profession, yes. Very much so.

Mind, we aren't talking about "didn't taste good". We're talking about a patron that comes up to me, and starts listing. Plating wasn't good. Wrong plate, too. Lobster could be hotter, the sides were too wet. The wine wasn't dry enough, and the table decor is awful. Also, what's with that table cloth, white is so 1980. Dessert, don't get me started, didn't get a choice between spoon and fork for the cake. Also, cake too dense, filling watery. 

You bet that most cooks laugh you out of the door, and very much guaranteed will tell you to do it better yourself or jog on.

See, criticising things in detail implies you know what you're talking about (commonly referred to as a knowitall), in which case.. yes. Do it better. 

There's not liking something, and there's pretending to know the processes and failures that lead to you not liking it. Big difference, since one suggests that you could do better by "just avoid these".

[steveman0]

I don't get why people think HarvesteR would do better.  The last I played KSP was probably around the time that he was on his way out.  The game was a gem for many reasons but it also struggled in many areas, both in gameplay and technical reasons.  In many of these areas, KSP2 has already done better. 

While his experience may given him some advantages in recognizing pitfalls that would need to be addressed, given what we saw out of KSP1, I don't have confidence that he has the technical skills to solve these problems any better than what we saw out of the KSP2 team.  KSP is not an ordinary game with ordinary problems, it's going to be a challenge even for someone with very specialized experience.

[Bej Kerman]

[snip]

18 hours ago, Scarecrow71 said:

If you don't like the games, and you have nothing constructive to add, and all you do is criticize every post, every thought, every idea...why are you here?  Is your only goal to just be negative and try to bring everyone around you down?

If you only want positivity, I fail to see why you're in this subforum and not in one of the KSP 1 subforums.

18 hours ago, Scarecrow71 said:

All the non-technical stuff that can be added to KSP1 through mods

Let's run through the logic you're using:

KSP 2 has flaws = let's lynch the developers

KSP 1 has flaws = let's praise Harvester for all the mods he didn't make

Suppose the library of mods for KSP 2 grows which is inevitable for any game, I don't suppose you'll do a heel-turn and decide that Intercept wasn't so evil actually. Or is Harvester the only developer in the world who is allowed to take credit for mods that fix his game.

7 hours ago, steveman0 said:

I don't get why people think HarvesteR would do better.

As I said, people are attached to an ideal fantasy where an underdog team does a better job than a studio they vilify, and aren't ready to face the reality that Harvester already had a shot at making a space game and made a dog's dinner out of it, and now he's busy on a pitifully unambitious game because it's a more realistic target for him than doing KSP 1 but better.

[Scarecrow71]

45 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

Let's run through the logic you're using:

KSP 2 has flaws = let's lynch the developers

KSP 1 has flaws = let's praise Harvester for all the mods he didn't make

Suppose the library of mods for KSP 2 grows which is inevitable for any game, I don't suppose you'll do a heel-turn and decide that Intercept wasn't so evil actually. Or is Harvester the only developer in the world who is allowed to take credit for mods that fix his game

And let's have you show me where I said we should lynch the developers for KSP2 having flaws.  Or where I said HarvesteR should be praised for all those mods he didn't make.  I'll wait for a bit while you go find those posts...

...can't find them?  Right.  Because I never said either of those things.  If you are going to argue with me, at least argue the points I've made, not some half-baked fantasies that you may have read from other people.

48 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

I guess pointing out to people that they're dreaming of an idealistic fantasy involving Harvester rather than the actual person is amusing on the same level as poking holes in the beliefs of a Flat Earther.

So, you are admitting to only wanting to cause issues then.  Got it.

48 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

If you only want positivity, I fail to see why you're in this subforum and not in one of the KSP 1 subforums.

What i want is to not have to see your endless string of attacks and negativity, regardless of the subforum I am in.  And I shouldn't have to go to only one area to get decent conversation. 

[Bej Kerman]

5 minutes ago, Scarecrow71 said:

Or where I said HarvesteR should be praised for all those mods he didn't make.

Well do tell me why you bring up mods as if they're a redeeming factor for Harvester.

6 minutes ago, Scarecrow71 said:

What i want is to not have to see your endless string of attacks and negativity, regardless of the subforum I am in.  And I shouldn't have to go to only one area to get decent conversation. 

I've seen a similar sentiment spoken of you so I think it'd be arrogant of both of us to question us being here.

[Lisias]

On 5/24/2024 at 10:34 AM, Bej Kerman said:

Well do tell me why you bring up mods as if they're a redeeming factor for Harvester.

Because it is.

The immensely supportive modding support from KSP¹ was a huge source of headaches for him, but it was also one of the key factors that made KSP¹ the huge success is was (is?).

Now, compare it with what was done on KSP2: besides not being a error from the managerial (and probably technical) point of view (as modding causes a lot of friction on the development cycle, just see how things developed on the KSP¹ times and see for yourself), from the P/R point of view was a huge disaster - they essentially let 3rd parties break the EULA to publish a toolkit that, frankly, didn't fell in the hearts of most of the existing modding scene, managing to alienate exactly what helped to made the sequel a success.

So, in a nutshell, besides being initially a Good Idea© to postpone mod support, the tragic launch and the stupidly huge delay on publishing something that would be barely usable ended up alienating the dev team from working modding support in an acceptable time frame - and an official modding support was one of the main complains of modders from the prequel.

TL;DR: KSP2 managed to liquid off everybody, from players to modders.

Modding Support on KSP2 is one of that weird and bizarre situations in which you got royally screwed up by doing the Right Thing®.

KSP¹ (by reasons beyound the scope of this post) is one of the yet more weird and rare situations in which not doing things "right" was the key for the success. @HarvesteR may just had plain luck on the situation, but it's undeniable that he was capable enough to harvest (pun really intended) the opportunities presented to him and seize the day.

Again, I still agree with your underlined argument - that @HarvesteR probably is not the right guy to lead an AAA project like KSP2 is now. He's more than capable from the development point of view, but he have no previous experience on handling the management duties, the heavy politics and internal drama that an AAA project brings with (I don't want to mention people trapped behind NDAs, but I'm pretty sure you understood who I'm talking about).

I not only agree with you here, but add that this would probably destroy his career (or, at very least, his will to keep pushing on it).

HOWEVER.

We are missing a very, very interesting point...

You see, KSP2 does not need to be handled as an AAA project. Build it as an Indie Project with deep pockets, shield @HarvesteR from unrelated activities he's not seasoned to handle, and suddenly you will see that we still have a viable project to carry on.

And, with a bit of luck, a very successful one.

KSP¹ was a huge success not only besides @HarvesteR's mistakes - it was a huge success exactly due some of them.

Some people just have this touch, smart people learn how to cope with them and work together.  Not so smart people try to mimic them, perhaps believing that there are time enough in the Universe to apply the Infinite Monkey Theorem on game development.

Edited May 26 by Lisias
Typos, tyops, tyops everywhere!!!

[dprostock]

Worry no more, the truth is emerging! What I said in 2021 has come true!  Homer was in charge of everything! 

 

 

[Scarecrow71]

55 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

Well do tell me why you bring up mods as if they're a redeeming factor for Harvester.

They aren't a redeeming factor for HarvesteR.  They are a redeeming factor for KSP1.

Read that again:  Redeeming factor for the game, not the developer.

56 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

I've seen a similar sentiment spoken of you so I think it'd be arrogant of both of us to question us being here.

Source?

I won't be shy and admit I'm not liked by everyone.  I'm also a bit blunt and direct, primarily because I dislike ambiguity.  But if you are going to make the claim that you've seen others speak negatively of me and my attitude, I'll ask for proof.  Can't better myself if I'm not aware of what I'm accused of doing wrong.

[Bej Kerman]

22 minutes ago, Scarecrow71 said:

1 hour ago, Bej Kerman said:

Well do tell me why you bring up mods as if they're a redeeming factor for Harvester.

They aren't a redeeming factor for HarvesteR.  They are a redeeming factor for KSP1.

Read that again:  Redeeming factor for the game, not the developer.

Ok, so the relevance in a discussion about Felipe himself beats me.

23 minutes ago, Scarecrow71 said:

I won't be shy and admit I'm not liked by everyone.

Well there's my source already.

[almagnus1]

11 hours ago, stephensmat said:

Mods in KSP1 tried, but they were all landable parts. There was no Colony Editor to place things anywhere, there was no Orbital Shipyard.

IIRC there were quite a few mods that allowed you to spawn stuff you built in the VAB in from orbit, especially some of the RoverDude mods.

[snip]

5 hours ago, Scarecrow71 said:

...can't find them?  Right.  Because I never said either of those things.  If you are going to argue with me, at least argue the points I've made, not some half-baked fantasies that you may have read from other people.

So, you are admitting to only wanting to cause issues then.  Got it.

Truth.

[Bej Kerman]

32 minutes ago, almagnus1 said:

Yes, because everyone that disagrees with you is clearly a mouth breathing moron unworthy of your vast time and intellect....

Well it'd be a lie to say this post isn't dripping with cloudy-eyed idealism.

[Scarecrow71]

1 hour ago, Bej Kerman said:

Well there's my source already.

It's not a source if it's said after you already had a source.  So you're either intentionally looking for a fight, or you're a liar.  Which is it?

[Bej Kerman]

1 minute ago, Scarecrow71 said:

It's not a source if it's said after you already had a source.  So you're either intentionally looking for a fight, or you're a liar. 

Or I'm simply saying it's not anyone's place to accuse me of being the sole negative nancy of the forum

[almagnus1]

31 minutes ago, Bej Kerman said:

Well it'd be a lie to say this post isn't dripping with cloudy-eyed idealism.

Or maybe I'm seeing the KSP franchise as completely dead after the KSP2 debacle and termination of Intercept Studios because Take Two has been so badly burned they probably aren't going to do anything else with it over the next decade (if ever again), and the only thing that KSP2 is going to receive from this point forward is maybe bug fixes... if we're lucky since there's likely only to be a skeleton crew that's going to be running the game and likely more community management staff than devs.

That's not cloudy-eyed idealism... it's called being a realist and thinking outside the box because at this point, HarvesterR is a hail Mary at best... and if you know much about American football.....

[Bej Kerman]

Just now, almagnus1 said:

Or maybe I'm seeing the KSP franchise as completely dead after the KSP2 debacle and termination of Intercept Studios because Take Two has been so badly burned they probably aren't going to do anything else with it over the next decade (if ever again), and the only thing that KSP2 is going to receive from this point forward is maybe bug fixes... if we're lucky since there's likely only to be a skeleton crew that's going to be running the game and likely more community management staff than devs.

That's not cloudy-eyed idealism... it's called being a realist and thinking outside the box because at this point, HarvesterR is a hail Mary at best... and if you know much about American football.....

Um, no. Being a realist would be acknowledging that there are tens of millions of developers in this world, most of which would be better qualified to take on KSP 2 than Harvester. There's really no reason this Hail Mary needs to be Harvester. 

[Scarecrow71]

1 hour ago, Bej Kerman said:

Or I'm simply saying it's not anyone's place to accuse me of being the sole negative nancy of the forum

Once again, you are putting words in my mouth.  I never said you were the sole source of negativity.  I'm merely asking questions that you conveniently continue to disregard and refuse to answer.  You also twist whatever is being said so that it suits whatever narrative you have, trying to make yourself look better while putting everyone around you down.  Which you've now done at least twice in the last several responses to me to simple statements I've made.

Let me be clear:  There are other negative people here on the forum; you are not the only one.  I'm just calling you out because, as I've stated before, you are on record as not liking either game, and all you seem to do is push out a negative point of view on every idea and topic that comes up.  So you are either here looking only for a fight, or you are a liar about everything you say.  Again, I'll ask:  which is it?

[almagnus1]

1 hour ago, Bej Kerman said:

Um, no. Being a realist would be acknowledging that there are tens of millions of developers in this world, most of which would be better qualified to take on KSP 2 than Harvester. There's really no reason this Hail Mary needs to be Harvester. 

Name five.  That "better qualified" mindset is exactly how we ended up with a KSP2 that was too close to KSP1 and failed horribly.

Edited May 24 by almagnus1

[Bej Kerman]

34 minutes ago, almagnus1 said:

Name five.  That "better qualified" mindset is exactly how we ended up with a KSP2 that was too close to KSP1 and failed horribly.

Implying the devs on KSP 2 being qualified was the problem?

[Vanamonde]

Please stop insulting each other. Some comments removed. 

[K^2]

22 hours ago, Scarecrow71 said:

Unless you think you can do better?

As someone who can do better on the technical front, HarvesteR isn't the right person for the job.

KSP2 needs somebody who understand how to make a game with a wider appeal, which is not HarvesteR's strong suit, and somebody who has deep understanding of game tech and physics to handle the technical aspects, which isn't HarvesteR's strong suit.

HarvesteR is very good at finding new concepts and proving them out (or not). That could be fantastic for a particular aspect of a game like KSP2, but not the game overall. And I think HarvesteR himself would be happier making a new game, not just expanding something that already exists. That is where his strengths lie.

[almagnus1]

1 hour ago, Bej Kerman said:

Implying the devs on KSP 2 being qualified was the problem?

No, overstating how valuable qualifications are is the problem.

Sometimes the best coders aren't the ones that have a degree, nor are they always the ones at the larger companies. 

Edited May 24 by almagnus1

[K^2]

2 hours ago, almagnus1 said:

Sometimes the best coders aren't the ones that have a degree

That often applies, but KSP does require more technical knowledge than most games. And even HarvesteR has a degree. So while, perhaps, it's not strictly necessary, it sure helps a lot, and someone entirely self-taught will have an incredible amount of catching up to do.

[almagnus1]

7 minutes ago, K^2 said:

That often applies, but KSP does require more technical knowledge than most games. And even HarvesteR has a degree. So while, perhaps, it's not strictly necessary, it sure helps a lot, and someone entirely self-taught will have an incredible amount of catching up to do.

What it needs aren't coders with comp sci degrees... but coders with aerospace engineering degrees (or the coders that have played a ton of KSP1).

[herbal space program]

2 minutes ago, K^2 said:

That often applies, but KSP does require more technical knowledge than most games.

Calling somebody a good coder is like calling somebody a good  physician or lawyer. They all need to be good at certain basic skills to deserve that distinction, but beyond that there are so many distinct specialties involved  that there is no generic level of proficiency that covers them all. You wouldn't want even the world's greatest orthopedic surgeon operating on your heart!