Kerbalism Science Only anyone?

[theJesuit]

Hi everyone,

I'm considering reviving the old Kerbalism Science only mod - so NO Life Support.

Kerbalism is more than life support though.  It is also background processing for harvesting ISRU and EC generation.  It includes MOAR ways to kill kerbals, through stress, radiation etc.  This requires mass to be added to parts for radiation shielding (managed as a non transferable resource at time of build) and making sure that there is enough habitable space across your craft on long duration missions along with other factors than increase stress, such as a gravity ring, a cupola for views, two crew, connection to home etc.

Also, there is a vanilla Kerbalism (Kerbalism Config) and my own Kerbalism SIMPLEX which have a different spread of science, but both work across any tech tree.

Also, Config and Simplex have different attitudes towards ISRU, Config is more complex using the CRP, whereas Simplex supports a Stock ISRU system or the Simplex Resources.

So I probably will make the Science only config, but what would people want?

• Do you want the set of experiments from Config or Simplex?
• Is it worth include the background ISRU stuff? It will probably be the same option as Config or Simplex
• Do you still want the stress and radiation poisonings?  Just no life support worries?

Edited July 2 by theJesuit

[Infinite Aerospace]

17 minutes ago, theJesuit said:

Hi everyone,

I'm considering reviving the old Kerbalism Science only mod - so NO Life Support.

Kerbalism is more than life support though.  It is also background processing for harvesting ISRU and EC generation.  It includes MOAR ways to kill kerbals, through stress, radiation etc.  This requires mass to be added to parts for radiation shielding (managed as a non transferable resource at time of build) and making sure that there is enough habitable space across your craft on long duration missions along with other factors than increase stress, such as a gravity ring, a cupola for views, two crew, connection to home etc.

Also, there is a vanilla Kerbalism (Kerbalism Config) and my own Kerbalism SIMPLEX which have a different spread of science, but both work across any tech tree.

Also, Config and Simplex have different attitudes towards ISRU, Config is more complex using the CRP, whereas Simplex supports a Stock ISRU system or the Simplex Resources.

So I probably will make the Science only config, but what would people want?

• Do you want the set of experiments from Config or Simplex?
• Is it worth include the background ISRU stuff? It will probably be the same option as Config or Simplex
• Do you still want the stress and radiation poisonings?  Just no life support worries?

How Kerbalism handles science is the de facto science for me, the stock system is so dumbed down and ham-fisted. So a science system that's like Kerbalism, just with none of the life support stuff is probably something of a god send. That would let you add (or not) whichever life support mod/s to complement that. I use the current Kerbalism Science Only with TAC-LS and Kerbal Health because it seems to cause less conflicts that way.

[JadeOfMaar]

@theJesuit I recently had to point out a problem with Kerbalsim Science Only. Apparently it somehow still presents itself as Kerbalism Default which falsely activates patches of mine that apply Shielding resource to my own parts. If you could also confirm that, and rememdy it, it would be a great bonus to your adoption of it.

It would also be great if you made a config for Radiation only (and possibly Radiation + Science). I've seen high demand for -just- the radioactivity of planets and parts. Having stress baked into Radiation sounds like a good idea. Granted that ship designs can still remain nearly purely stock, it's always a good idea, I think, to give the player the incentive to build roomy ships and know there's a penalty for cramped ones. This especially in contrast to dealing with USI's habitation mechanic and its buggy Touristification penalty.

Omitting the background ISRU component might be preferred. There are still players who want to use MKS + Kerbalism but don't want Kerbalism breaking their heavy industry game, and I'm not sure I want to continue developing resource converter systems under Kerbalism. The recipe conventions (namely the EC scaling) seem to be a world apart and no one's holding my hand for that so it's better I stop than keeping doing an uninformed, very oddly tuned thing.

I haven't played Kerbalism Science so I couldn't simply choose between Vanilla and Simplex in the poll...But I'm going to lean on Simplex since, me being new to it, I like the idea of having less to think about as I step onto the scene.

[ttikkoo]

17 hours ago, theJesuit said:

Also, there is a vanilla Kerbalism (Kerbalism Config) and my own Kerbalism SIMPLEX which have a different spread of science, but both work across any tech tree.

Would you please be able to expand on the difference between the two Science configs? I've played both (though not to completion) and from what I can tell Kerbalism SIMPLEX renames some experiment (Telemtry Report -> TITE) and adds a few more probe and crewed experiments? Is that right or are there some more fundamental differences? It's hard for me to pick one in the polls without having a good understanding of the differences.

I love the idea of having Radiation and Stress included  together - providing an actual reason to have bigger ships like the Hitchhiker Container is my favorite part of life support mods. Sure, I can chuck it on in stock but it actually doing something productive feels much better!

Personally, I'm really enjoying the Radiation, Stress  and Parts Breakdown mechanics and would rather they be included. However, including them in a "Science Only" config is kind of counter-intuitive - it immediately becomes not Science Only. Though I would argue radiation should be included as (a) the belts look super cool and (b) it's part of science collection with the magnetometer. 

Edited July 3 by ttikkoo

[KspNoobUsernameTaken]

17 hours ago, ttikkoo said:

However, including them in a "Science Only" config is kind of counter-intuitive - it immediately becomes not Science Only.

I agree with this, but also like radiation... best bet is to have different versions for science only, then science + radiation etc. 

Also, doesn't radiation have its own science experiments? If so, what about science+ radiation with no crew damage.

[KspNoobUsernameTaken]

On 7/3/2024 at 1:35 AM, JadeOfMaar said:

Apparently it somehow still presents itself as Kerbalism Default which falsely activates patches of mine that apply Shielding resource to my own parts.

Maybe you could change the :NEEDS condition to something else? Checking for a specific change done by Kerbalism Default as opposed to its presence?

[theJesuit]

@JadeOfMaar I plan to fix those kinds of issues.   @KspNoobUsernameTaken given this will be a separate download  I can change the folder name for any stray FORs, and also the Profile name itself.

For those asking:

Kerbalism allows changes to science.  All science is transmittable 100%, but sample style experiments (goo, EVA surface collection etc.) can't be transmitted at all unless the are processed in a crewed Lab.  Experiments also take time, and the transmission speed is dependent on the size of antennae, tracking station size, and distance from Kerbin.  As experiments take time, they can also be run in the background whilst you are off doing something else.

@ttikkoo The difference between vanilla config and simplex science is mostly on the number of crew specific  science experiments that are housed in a hitchhiker or in a lab.  Simplex kind of summarizes them a little more i.e. only one hitchhiker crewed experiment, and three lab experiments,  and it doesn't include any underwater experiments at all.  This is against vanilla config 4 - 6 experiments..  The probe only experiments are some different, some the same.

@JadeOfMaar Omitting ISRU may be a good idea - good reasoning thanks!  The background processing for stock ISRU modules does happen I think, but Kerbalism prefers you to use its own process models instead, so even if I didn't include this specifically, I believe it would happen regardless.  I'm happy to be wrong.  Regardless, kerbalism doesn't account to heat and thermal stuff.  So heat and thermal issues only have an impact when you are off rails using stock ISRU processes.

 

[SheepDog2142]

Please bring this back. If i can help in any way ping me. UI can do some limited coding in MM. Really want to see this up and running again.

I have a Mp sever with about 6 people and science only works but full kerablism wont due to MP

Edited July 19 by SheepDog2142

[Mitokandria]

On 7/2/2024 at 3:00 PM, theJesuit said:

[snip]

• Do you still want the stress and radiation poisonings?  Just no life support worries?

I said yes to both. At the moment I feel there are better (imo) life support (food/water/oxygen) mods than what Kerbalism offers, but few of them touch on the stress and radiation poisoning the same way kerbalism does. Having these included would allow for a somewhat modular experience when used with other life support mods.

[bigyihsuan]

For the poll, my answers are:

1. Vanilla Kerbalism Config Science (but you do you with SIMPLEX)
2. No ISRU, no harvesters, no nothing. Just science and transmission.
3. No stress, no radiation, no part breakdowns, no life support. But the poll had it as required, so I selected stress.

Ideally, it should be a drop-in replacement/config option for Kerbalism: if I took Science-Only Kerbalism, and installed it with a Kerbalism pack that has science configs, it should have nothing but science. No radiation, no part failures, no stress, no life support (I want to use Snacks instead).

[SheepDog2142]

2 hours ago, bigyihsuan said:

For the poll, my answers are:

1. Vanilla Kerbalism Config Science (but you do you with SIMPLEX)
2. No ISRU, no harvesters, no nothing. Just science and transmission.
3. No stress, no radiation, no part breakdowns, no life support. But the poll had it as required, so I selected stress.

Ideally, it should be a drop-in replacement/config option for Kerbalism: if I took Science-Only Kerbalism, and installed it with a Kerbalism pack that has science configs, it should have nothing but science. No radiation, no part failures, no stress, no life support (I want to use Snacks instead).

I agree my choices as well. Kerbalism adds such a good new science model it's nice for it not to have any other systems that night conflict with other mods. 

Also please make this compatible with Real solar system. IE Earth instead of kerbin. 

Can't wait for this to be alive again!

Edited July 20 by SheepDog2142

[Twinki]

I think there's a fair amount of issues with a config-only solution, but notably:

• Many patches out there for Kerbalism that can only assume you're using a Kerbalism feature that causes incompatibility with whatever mod the patch originates from
• There's still a fair amount of code running in the background for features that are disabled via Config

Over the last week I've actually been dissecting and cannibalizing Kerbalism as a fork to provide a proper "Science Only" mod, https://github.com/Twinki14/Kerbalism

The idea is to just have Kerbalism Science and allow for other mods to do their own background simulation of resource harvesting/manufacturing chains or life support, so that we as mod-users can sorta "opt-into" what we want instead of Kerbalism being one gigantic mod that overhauls so many key aspects of the game.

Currently,

• All features except Radiation and Science have been outright removed on a Config level and Code level
• Radiation has been kept, however it's strictly only used for Science benefits (Geiger Counter, Experiments that require min/max radiation or Radiation biomes)

However, the Kerbalism Science component on it's own heavily relies on custom CommNet logic and Electric Charge background simulation. Making it really hard to provide a "Science Only" mod and open support with other life support mods even though the Life Support features have been gutted strictly due to the Electric Charge custom simulation. Though, I guess with only Science Experiments being the sole feature in a Kerbalism fork that drains EC, it might be pretty easy to add external life-support mod support.

Edited August 3 by Twinki

[SheepDog2142]

1 hour ago, Twinki said:

I think there's a fair amount of issues with a config-only solution, but notably:

• Many patches out there for Kerbalism that can only assume you're using a Kerbalism feature that causes incompatibility with whatever mod the patch originates from
• There's still a fair amount of code running in the background for features that are disabled via Config

Over the last week I've actually been dissecting and cannibalizing Kerbalism as a fork to provide a proper "Science Only" mod, https://github.com/Twinki14/Kerbalism

The idea is to just have Kerbalism Science and allow for other mods to do their own background simulation of resource harvesting/manufacturing chains or life support, so that we as mod-users can sorta "opt-into" what we want instead of Kerbalism being one gigantic mod that overhauls so many key aspects of the game.

Currently,

• All features except Radiation and Science have been outright removed on a Config level and Code level
• Radiation has been kept, however it's strictly only used for Science benefits (Geiger Counter, Experiments that require min/max radiation or Radiation biomes)

However, the Kerbalism Science component on it's own heavily relies on custom CommNet logic and Electric Charge background simulation. Making it really hard to provide a "Science Only" mod and open support with other life support mods even though the Life Support features have been gutted strictly due to the Electric Charge custom simulation. Though, I guess with only Science Experiments being the sole feature in a Kerbalism fork that drains EC, it might be pretty easy to add external life-support mod support.

Dont tease me

[PicoSpace]

On 7/2/2024 at 4:05 PM, JadeOfMaar said:

It would also be great if you made a config for Radiation only (and possibly Radiation + Science). I've seen high demand for -just- the radioactivity of planets and parts.

Yes, just a config where there is the radiation belts and science parts to detect those parts (but regular science, not the Kerbalism delayed science) would be nice. That way I can play stock science with more science parts that don't have kerbalism support, but also have the radiation belts which can tie into other mods (like kerbal health).

[SheepDog2142]

On 8/2/2024 at 10:18 PM, Twinki said:

I think there's a fair amount of issues with a config-only solution, but notably:

• Many patches out there for Kerbalism that can only assume you're using a Kerbalism feature that causes incompatibility with whatever mod the patch originates from
• There's still a fair amount of code running in the background for features that are disabled via Config

Over the last week I've actually been dissecting and cannibalizing Kerbalism as a fork to provide a proper "Science Only" mod, https://github.com/Twinki14/Kerbalism

The idea is to just have Kerbalism Science and allow for other mods to do their own background simulation of resource harvesting/manufacturing chains or life support, so that we as mod-users can sorta "opt-into" what we want instead of Kerbalism being one gigantic mod that overhauls so many key aspects of the game.

Currently,

• All features except Radiation and Science have been outright removed on a Config level and Code level
• Radiation has been kept, however it's strictly only used for Science benefits (Geiger Counter, Experiments that require min/max radiation or Radiation biomes)

However, the Kerbalism Science component on it's own heavily relies on custom CommNet logic and Electric Charge background simulation. Making it really hard to provide a "Science Only" mod and open support with other life support mods even though the Life Support features have been gutted strictly due to the Electric Charge custom simulation. Though, I guess with only Science Experiments being the sole feature in a Kerbalism fork that drains EC, it might be pretty easy to add external life-support mod support.

I am probably doing something incorrect but when I throw this in my game Its not working. Science is still instant and I am not getting the additional buttons on the side to track science ands stuff.
Do I need more than just the game data folder?
--------------------------------------------------------------

Edit: I did some more testing on a stock game with nothing but your mod and the default kerbalism dependency mods of module manager and community resource kit. 

Results:
In game: Nothing does not show up anywhere. Its like its not activated at all.
Log: Seems to not be able to load anything for science including stock.
 

[LOG 09:43:48.741] Deleting root node in file KerbalismConfig/System/ScienceRework/Tweakables/StockExperiments node: @KERBALISM_EXPERIMENT_VALUES:NEEDS[FeatureScience] as it can't satisfy its NEEDS

[LOG 09:43:48.741] Deleting root node in file KerbalismConfig/System/ScienceRework/Tweakables/StockGroups-Atmospheric node: @KERBALISM_GROUP_SETTINGS:NEEDS[FeatureScience] as it can't satisfy its NEEDS

[LOG 09:43:48.741] Deleting root node in file Kerb

 

Edited August 5 by SheepDog2142

[theJesuit]

19 hours ago, Twinki said:

I think there's a fair amount of issues with a config-only solution, but notably:

• Many patches out there for Kerbalism that can only assume you're using a Kerbalism feature that causes incompatibility with whatever mod the patch originates from
• There's still a fair amount of code running in the background for features that are disabled via Config

Over the last week I've actually been dissecting and cannibalizing Kerbalism as a fork to provide a proper "Science Only" mod, https://github.com/Twinki14/Kerbalism

The idea is to just have Kerbalism Science and allow for other mods to do their own background simulation of resource harvesting/manufacturing chains or life support, so that we as mod-users can sorta "opt-into" what we want instead of Kerbalism being one gigantic mod that overhauls so many key aspects of the game.

Currently,

• All features except Radiation and Science have been outright removed on a Config level and Code level
• Radiation has been kept, however it's strictly only used for Science benefits (Geiger Counter, Experiments that require min/max radiation or Radiation biomes)

However, the Kerbalism Science component on it's own heavily relies on custom CommNet logic and Electric Charge background simulation. Making it really hard to provide a "Science Only" mod and open support with other life support mods even though the Life Support features have been gutted strictly due to the Electric Charge custom simulation. Though, I guess with only Science Experiments being the sole feature in a Kerbalism fork that drains EC, it might be pretty easy to add external life-support mod support.

Thanks!

It seems we are working towards a similar goal.  Are working on the code base of Kerbalism as well to remove things? If that is the case can I humbly suggest that you also rename the folders as well so that people don't get the different versions and flavours of Kerbalism mixed up.  If you have removed some of the other background stuff, does it affect stock harvesting and ISRU?  I suggest also changing the profile from ProfileDefault, and changing the Kerbalism folder name.   You could probably combine the lot into a singular download and put it in a KerbalismScienceOnly, folder.  The .dll is already called KerbalismBoostrap anyway, so I think pretty much all MM patches from other mods either look from ProfileDefault, or the folers KerbalismConfig or Kerbalism.

 

My plan is somewhat similar expect I am working towards a modular release set.  I give apologies for the slow work on this, on a good day I have 30-45mins of time in the morning to spend in front of my PC to work on things - and holidays finished recently .

The main release would be Science Only - similar to this, but without editing the original code.  I plan to support with other mods science as well. ISRU and Harvesting is to be as in Stock, as in I think vanilla Kerbalism will still run these in the background even if they part Modules aren't changed to Kerbalism specified profiles.  I'll need to check how the system heat addon mod that works with Kerbalism will cope.

An addon to this will also be released to add in stress and radiation sickness too - but not Life Support.  Hence why I'm not going to be removing stuff from the code.

@Cheesecakehas helped by providing the updates to BDB science that have been added more recently then Kerbalism 3.19.  Once I get it up on Github I'll provide a link for people to contribute and test across all their favourite mods.

 

Edited August 3 by theJesuit

[Mitokandria]

On 8/3/2024 at 7:16 PM, theJesuit said:

Thanks!

It seems we are working towards a similar goal.  Are working on the code base of Kerbalism as well to remove things? If that is the case can I humbly suggest that you also rename the folders as well so that people don't get the different versions and flavours of Kerbalism mixed up.  If you have removed some of the other background stuff, does it affect stock harvesting and ISRU?  I suggest also changing the profile from ProfileDefault, and changing the Kerbalism folder name.   You could probably combine the lot into a singular download and put it in a KerbalismScienceOnly, folder.  The .dll is already called KerbalismBoostrap anyway, so I think pretty much all MM patches from other mods either look from ProfileDefault, or the folers KerbalismConfig or Kerbalism.

 

My plan is somewhat similar expect I am working towards a modular release set.  I give apologies for the slow work on this, on a good day I have 30-45mins of time in the morning to spend in front of my PC to work on things - and holidays finished recently .

The main release would be Science Only - similar to this, but without editing the original code.  I plan to support with other mods science as well. ISRU and Harvesting is to be as in Stock, as in I think vanilla Kerbalism will still run these in the background even if they part Modules aren't changed to Kerbalism specified profiles.  I'll need to check how the system heat addon mod that works with Kerbalism will cope.

An addon to this will also be released to add in stress and radiation sickness too - but not Life Support.  Hence why I'm not going to be removing stuff from the code.

@Cheesecakehas helped by providing the updates to BDB science that have been added more recently then Kerbalism 3.19.  Once I get it up on Github I'll provide a link for people to contribute and test across all their favourite mods.

 

Stop saying such beautiful things. You are going to make me cry tears of joy if you keep going.

[Belthize]

I recently came back to Kerbal and I'm playing a UKS+Kerbalism-science-only config coupled with USI-MKS/OKS.   It's the best coupling of better science tree, more interesting science capture and long terms goals.  The only thing I really miss is the old X!Science mod, specifically the aspect of the mod that would report what science has been performed of the available science.  Did I ever do experiment X at location Y.   

I do like the idea of modularizing kerbalism so it's more of a mix and match.   Whatever is done many thanks to you and anyone that continues to support these mods.   

Nevermind,  I just found the kerbalism tool tip that shows all the science.  I mistook the icon for something else.  

Edited August 7 by Belthize

[SheepDog2142]

2 hours ago, Belthize said:

I recently came back to Kerbal and I'm playing a UKS+Kerbalism-science-only config coupled with USI-MKS/OKS.   It's the best coupling of better science tree, more interesting science capture and long terms goals.  The only thing I really miss is the old X!Science mod, specifically the aspect of the mod that would report what science has been performed of the available science.  Did I ever do experiment X at location Y.   

I do like the idea of modularizing kerbalism so it's more of a mix and match.   Whatever is done many thanks to you and anyone that continues to support these mods.   

Nevermind,  I just found the kerbalism tool tip that shows all the science.  I mistook the icon for something else.  

Where was it?

[Belthize]

6 hours ago, SheepDog2142 said:

Where was it?

In my game there are two icons that look like a heart beat monitor and then a little smaller icon above it.  One of them is just a list of vessels and you can manage them from there.  I thought they were both the same thing but one is the kerbalism science archive tool.  Click it and it brings up a tool with all the possible science, what you've done and what you can do.  It even tracks percent complete.  On mine it's to the far right of the tools, right before the alarm clock.   For ijnstance here's the status of the atmospheric scan on kerbin in my game so far (early yet), tool is 3rd from the right.

https://imgur.com/zCyyHlw

Edited August 7 by Belthize

[SheepDog2142]

22 minutes ago, Belthize said:

In my game there are two icons that look like a heart beat monitor and then a little smaller icon above it.  One of them is just a list of vessels and you can manage them from there.  I thought they were both the same thing but one is the kerbalism science archive tool.  Click it and it brings up a tool with all the possible science, what you've done and what you can do.  It even tracks percent complete.  On mine it's to the far right of the tools, right before the alarm clock.   For ijnstance here's the status of the atmospheric scan on kerbin in my game so far (early yet), tool is 3rd from the right.

https://imgur.com/zCyyHlw

Was this using the above Science only version that Twinki posted or a different one?

[Belthize]

40 minutes ago, SheepDog2142 said:

Was this using the above Science only version that Twinki posted or a different one?

It's the original Kerbalism + Kerbalism-Science only config.   Not the one Twinki posted.  I was expressing my support for the idea of a modular, non-config approach but I'm still using the original config only solution.

[theJesuit]

Hi everyone!

Look here

and try this!

https://spacedock.info/mod/3691

 

 

[Belthize]

Hey that's great news.   Quick question.   I'm relatively early into a play through, further than I'd like to start over but not so far that I can't.

Could I just uninstall the Kerbalism and old style Kerbalism-science only config mods and install this (kerbalismcore + kerbalism modular science) and continue on or does have to be a fresh install ?

I'm currently playing with un-kerballed (UKS), MKS-USI,  scansat and remotetech all of which are working fine, is this modular approach likely to be similarly compatible ?  I sort of assume so.

Thanks again for the work.

[theJesuit]

4 hours ago, Belthize said:

Hey that's great news.   Quick question.   I'm relatively early into a play through, further than I'd like to start over but not so far that I can't.

Could I just uninstall the Kerbalism and old style Kerbalism-science only config mods and install this (kerbalismcore + kerbalism modular science) and continue on or does have to be a fresh install ?

I'm currently playing with un-kerballed (UKS), MKS-USI,  scansat and remotetech all of which are working fine, is this modular approach likely to be similarly compatible ?  I sort of assume so.

Thanks again for the work.

I have no idea.  Possibly.  The science is exacy the same, with additions for data and samples.  Crewed parts may have issues possibly.