CKAN thoughts

[Lisias]

[Moderator note:  This thread was split from the main CKAN thread here.]

Moving from another thread. Ping @Grenartia

On 9/12/2024 at 8:33 AM, JonnyOThan said:

Because 99.999% of mods for 1.8+ are safe.  This path puts the burden on the user if something breaks because they were appropriately warned (just as it is when manually installing).  Setting compatible versions in CKAN is something you only ever need to do once per KSP install.   Yes it’s often a stumbling block for new CKAN users but that’s hardly a reason to avoid it entirely.  Manually installing mods often leads to incorrect installations or installing older versions of bundled dependencies.

I dispute that number, but whatever - you are clearly using rhetorics here.

Users will do the path of less friction. If CKAN imposes too much friction, users will do manual installs - or will try anything else, as Vortex - that, interesting enough, are starting to be mentioned when people reaches me for support.

I strongly suggest to ask the users why they are preferring manual installings instead of setting up CKAN to assume all 1.8.1 addons to be compatible to 1.12.5.

Curseforge may had forsaken KSP, but there're others willing to fill the niche - as I said, I had noticed an increased interest on using Vortex while doing support.

Edited Friday at 08:45 PM by Snark
Split into new thread by moderator.

[JonnyOThan]

1 hour ago, Lisias said:

I dispute that number, but whatever - you are clearly using rhetorics here.

What are the counter-examples?  I vaguely recall that there are one or two but I don't remember what they are now.  Yes obviously 99.999% is an exaggeration because there are 1884 mods on CKAN compatible with 1.8+.  If two of them don't work then it's only 99.9%.

1 hour ago, Lisias said:

I strongly suggest to ask the users why they are preferring manual installings

I do.  Most of the time it's either someone who is completely new to modding and isn't aware of CKAN, or just refuses to use CKAN out of some sense of control or whatever. It's very unusual for someone to use CKAN and then go back to manual installs.

I've never heard of Vortex, but I'm curious to hear how they're going to solve all of the same challenges that CKAN has to deal with.

1 hour ago, Lisias said:

If CKAN imposes too much friction

CKAN tries *really hard* to have as little friction as possible.  Further, the CKAN team acts in the interests of uses AND modders.  Overriding the compatible versions that a modder has approved (without user action) crosses that line.  The remedy is a manual step that is pinned in the CKAN support discord.  We're always open for suggestions on improvements to that flow as well.

Edited Thursday at 02:41 PM by JonnyOThan

[Grenartia]

12 hours ago, Lisias said:

Moving from another thread. Ping @Grenartia

I dispute that number, but whatever - you are clearly using rhetorics here.

Users will do the path of less friction. If CKAN imposes too much friction, users will do manual installs - or will try anything else, as Vortex - that, interesting enough, are starting to be mentioned when people reaches me for support.

I strongly suggest to ask the users why they are preferring manual installings instead of setting up CKAN to assume all 1.8.1 addons to be compatible to 1.12.5.

Curseforge may had forsaken KSP, but there're others willing to fill the niche - as I said, I had noticed an increased interest on using Vortex while doing support.

All I'm going to say is, as an end user, manual installs SUCK. CKAN makes it easy (i.e., path of least friction). Its so frictionless, in fact, that if I can't get the mod on CKAN, I won't install it at all. I've been burned too many times by manual installs, like nested gamedata folders, or complicated dependency relationships. I don't know what your beef is with CKAN, but its not on behalf of users, because most of us seem to agree its the best way to install mods.

 

[Lisias]

18 hours ago, Grenartia said:

I don't know what your beef is with CKAN, but its not on behalf of users, because most of us seem to agree its the best way to install mods.

[snip]

Please read the original posts.

Please also remember that you don't represent the totality of the current users of CKAN, and that at least some of them presented reserves about some of perceived CKAN's weaknesses that I took the unfortunate decision to bring to the table.

There's a reason I'm getting support requests from people using Vortex on KSP.

Edited Friday at 08:49 PM by Snark
Redacted by moderator

[Grenartia]

15 hours ago, Lisias said:

Please read the original posts.

Please also remember that you don't represent the totality of the current users of CKAN, and that at least some of them presented reserves about some of perceived CKAN's weaknesses that I took the unfortunate decision to bring to the table.

There's a reason I'm getting support requests from people using Vortex on KSP.

All I'm saying is, the overwhelming majority of the playerbase (at least that I've seen) loves CKAN and hates manual installation. And considering this is literally the first time I'm hearing about Vortex, and as plugged in as I am here and other places in the community, I feel reasonable in saying most people haven't heard of it, either. The only alternative I'm aware of is that one used by Curseforge, and as far as I'm concerned, its bloatware at best, and outright malware at worst. Maybe the reason you're getting support requests from people using it is because nobody seems to support it at all? I don't see it listed in any mod's forum page, or on their spacedock page, or on their githubs. Not even yours. 

Edit: Yeah, just looked it up. Apparently its CKAN for Nexus mods? Only 13 files listed under KSP, 3 of which seem to be craft files from like, 10 years ago, most of the files haven't been updated since before 2020,  and some are mods you can also get on CKAN, or have duplicate functionality with mods you can find on CKAN. The most liked one hasn't been updated since release in 2013, and only has 68 likes (using that as a proxy for individual users, since raw downloads doesn't account for one user downloading multiple times). And none of your mods are there, so IDK how anyone is asking you specifically about support for Vortex. 

[Lisias]

14 hours ago, Grenartia said:

All I'm saying is, the overwhelming majority of the playerbase (at least that I've seen) loves CKAN and hates manual installation.

But not all of them. CKAN is still causing (or being accused to) cause troubles on the wild. This Forum is not the main resource for support anymore, people (by some reason) are finding their way outside.

And now people are asking for help, outside this Forum, on KSP installations managed by Vortex too.

Please reread what I had wrote here and in the origin thread under this new light: I came here to warn CKAN that something is happening - hardly something related to someone that have a feud (or beef) to someone. I surely have my disagreements, but absolutely none of them reflects on the user - I will always support the user the best I can - I'm suggesting CKAN does the same, definitively something that I'm not seeing on this specific use case that triggered this FlameFest we are now stuck inside.

Planet Packs are a very relevant niche on this Scene. I suggest to better serve these guys - or someone else will.

[Grenartia]

13 hours ago, Lisias said:

But not all of them. CKAN is still causing (or being accused to) cause troubles on the wild. This Forum is not the main resource for support anymore, people (by some reason) are finding their way outside.

And now people are asking for help, outside this Forum, on KSP installations managed by Vortex too.

Please reread what I had wrote here and in the origin thread under this new light: I came here to warn CKAN that something is happening - hardly something related to someone that have a feud (or beef) to someone. I surely have my disagreements, but absolutely none of them reflects on the user - I will always support the user the best I can - I'm suggesting CKAN does the same, definitively something that I'm not seeing on this specific use case that triggered this FlameFest we are now stuck inside.

Planet Packs are a very relevant niche on this Scene. I suggest to better serve these guys - or someone else will.

I'm present on the subreddit. I'm present in multiple discord servers. I'm present here. Here is by far the most comprehensive place for support, even in spite of the downtime issues. 

As far as I can tell (granted, I'm no dev), the issue isn't with CKAN as much as it is with the mods. Either the planet packs themselves, or their dependencies. Install issues happen regardless of being done through CKAN or manual. I've dealt with install issues through CKAN, and with manual installs. Un-borking an install is much easier with CKAN than a manual install, so I really don't see what your complaint is. No matter how you slice it, its far easier to uninstall and reinstall a mod to rectify a borked install when using CKAN vs doing it manually, so the friction argument is still in CKAN's favor. And I really don't see how Vortex is a threat on that front, especially since it only seems to support 10 mods at most (vs the literal thousands on CKAN), and most of them for game versions that predate 1.8.x (to say nothing of 1.12.x). As an average user, I'm forced to ask myself why I'd switch to it when it sounds like an entirely downgraded experience compared to CKAN, and I don't even have any assurance that it would be better than CKAN in the one area you're concerned about.

[Lisias]

1 hour ago, Grenartia said:

I'm present on the subreddit. I'm present in multiple discord servers. I'm present here. Here is by far the most comprehensive place for support, even in spite of the downtime issues.

And, yet, nobody ever mentioned Vortex to you. That's the whole point.

 

1 hour ago, Grenartia said:

As far as I can tell (granted, I'm no dev), the issue isn't with CKAN as much as it is with the mods.  [...]

If the user's installment gets screwed after using CKAN and it wasn't before, the net result is a screwed up installment no matter who's in fault.

On the other hand, if the user installs something by hand, screws it up and CKAN detects and fixes it... Can you see the huge difference it would do?

This is not a Court of Law. We are not being sued. Nobody will be declared guilty and do time due it: it's merely the matter of getting the job done or not.

If there's bad metadata on CKAN's database, it's up to CKAN to deal with it, not the user. It's the whole reason users are using CKAN at first place, to do not have to handle these problems, even the borderline ones.

Of course, CKAN can choose to give the one finger salute to users that find themselves on some borderline use cases - but, by then, it's reasonable to blame the user for trying to solve the problem without CKAN?

 

3 hours ago, Grenartia said:

[About Nexus Mods] And none of your mods are there, so IDK how anyone is asking you specifically about support for Vortex. 

Because I support my users, not CKAN, Nexus or whatever.

When an user reaches me with a problem in which anything I do is involved, I help them no matter how they installed the damned thing. Virtually all the support requests I get nowadays** is related due something else botched on the user's machine, causing collateral effects that affects something I published.

** Exception made on the following days I publish a new release, when now and then I bork something and let it pass trough into the release.

Edited Friday at 10:03 AM by Lisias
brute force post merge

[JonnyOThan]

4 hours ago, Lisias said:

Planet Packs are a very relevant niche on this Scene. I suggest to better serve these guys - or someone else will.

How exactly are they not being served well?  Also I’m still waiting to hear which 1.8+ mods don’t work on 1.12.5.

Since apparently you’ve talked to people who used Vortex, did you ask them why they didn’t use CKAN?

Edited Friday at 10:59 AM by JonnyOThan

[Lisias]

[snip]

 

10 hours ago, JonnyOThan said:

Also I’m still waiting to hear which 1.8+ mods don’t work on 1.12.5

So you don't know? If you don't know, how in hell do you make claims about 99.999% of effectiveness?

 

10 hours ago, JonnyOThan said:

Since apparently you’ve talked to people who used Vortex, did you ask them why they didn’t use CKAN?

Yes. Because they don't like how it break things sometimes. And one of the reasons are the terribly inaccurate way to set retro-compatibility as explained here:

[snip]

 

 

Edited Friday at 09:06 PM by Snark
Redacted by moderator

[JonnyOThan]

17 minutes ago, Lisias said:

So you don't know? If you don't know, how in hell do you make claims about 99.999% of effectiveness?

No, I don't know (as I already said).  I doubt it's more than 2 which would be 99.9% compatibility rate.  In the other thread you said there are known incompatibilities:

Quote

But not everything that works on 1.8.1 will work on 1.12.5, subjecting the user to the risk of install incompatible or troubled add'ons that are known not to work on 1.12.5 at all 

If you would so kindly tell us what they are, we could maybe do something about it, or warn people ahead of time, etc.  This is my 3rd time asking.

21 minutes ago, Lisias said:

Yes. Because they don't like how it break things sometimes. And one of the reasons are the terribly inaccurate way to set retro-compatibility as explained here:

So...someone used CKAN and couldn't install Kerbal Origins (or some other mod) because CKAN requires that the user opts in to installing mods that are not officially supported by their authors on newer versions, and that led them to use Vortex instead?  Do I have that right?  Why not just inform them how to set CKAN's compatibility settings appropriately?

Can you clarify what you mean by "terribly inaccurate?"  It's 100% accurate to what the mod author specified on spacedock.  Someone else on a forum saying it works isn't good enough to potentially trigger a flood of new support issues that are completely not the modder's fault if people install something in a version that isn't compatible.

----

All that said, we're looking at possibly changing CKAN's default behavior around compatible versions because we do know that it's one of the major stumbling blocks for new users.

[Snark]

The above content has been split off from the main CKAN thread, here, because it's more about discussing opinions on CKAN's merits and so forth rather than discussing issues with CKAN itself.  As such, it's not really on-topic for that thread, as it's unhelpful to people who are just trying to use CKAN.

Please feel free to continue discussing the matter here.  However, I would caution folks to please remain civil and refrain from accusations, ad hominem attacks, and the like.  Thank you for your understanding.

[JonnyOThan]

Also re-reading the post here: 

You seem like you might be unaware that you can force-install an incompatible mod from the versions tab in CKAN.  So even if you were worried about picking up broken mods by enabling 1.8 as compatible, you can still have CKAN install Kerbol Origins.

This is, in fact, a good way to get parts and config-only mods that have a max KSP version prior to 1.8, because you definitely don’t want to enable those as compatible in the CKAN settings.

Edited Friday at 10:13 PM by JonnyOThan

[Lisias]

3 hours ago, JonnyOThan said:

It's 100% accurate to what the mod author specified on spacedock.

What's completely irrelevant to the outcome we were discussing, the (so I call them) borderline use cases. They are pilling up, but you are not being informed - perhaps because every time someone reaches you to tell something similar, the net result is something like this thread? (or, perhaps, feedbacks like this one?)

I'm not the one with a beef with CKAN - just saying.

 

3 hours ago, JonnyOThan said:

Someone else on a forum saying it works isn't good enough to potentially trigger a flood of new support issues that are completely not the modder's fault if people install something in a version that isn't compatible.

And exactly how this is going to help the user to solve their problem? As I said before:

12 hours ago, Lisias said:

If the user's installment gets screwed after using CKAN and it wasn't before, the net result is a screwed up installment no matter who's in fault.

On the other hand, if the user installs something by hand, screws it up and CKAN detects and fixes it... Can you see the huge difference it would do?

Stop covering your arses and start fixing the problems. Life can be as simple as that sometimes.

 

3 hours ago, JonnyOThan said:

This is my 3rd time asking.

I'm not your employee. And given the outcome we got here, it's surprising I'm not inclined to use my scarce free time to reach the users for information, when you can do it yourself? This whole drama started here. Feel free to go there and ask them yourself - you don't need me for that.

Again, why not asking the users directly? After all, they were the ones reporting the problem, no? I just had the unfortunate and regretable decision to support their oppinion on this Forum. A mistake I'm not inclined to commit again.

 

3 hours ago, JonnyOThan said:

Why not just inform them how to set CKAN's compatibility settings appropriately?

Because they don't want to use CKAN, and it's not my job to convince them otherwise. Giving the outcome of this thread, and the personal consequences I got, I totally sympathize with them.

My job is to fix their problem, and not every time the problem is fixable with CKAN - it's exactly the other way around, most of the time I get involved because something bad happened after using CKAN. I diagnose the problem, fix the problem and advise the user how would be the best way to prevent if from happening again. And that's all I do.

I will not deal with this subject again. And I will pinpoint this thread to anyone asking me why.

Edited Friday at 10:18 PM by Lisias

[JonnyOThan]

8 minutes ago, Lisias said:

start fixing the problems

Honestly, I have no idea what problems you’re referring to.  You write a lot of words but you’re not *saying anything*.  If someone had a problem after installing something with CKAN, please have them report it to us.

I had hoped that you’d be able to shed some light on the “are all 1.8+ mods compatible with 1.12” question because that actually would have been helpful. 

Edited Friday at 10:22 PM by JonnyOThan

[Lisias]

1 minute ago, JonnyOThan said:

Honestly, I have no idea what problems you’re referring to.  You write a lot of words but you’re not *saying anything*.  If someone had a problem after installing something with CKAN, please have them report it to us.

I'm not your employee. It's not my job to convince users to reach you instead of me.

@Snark, could you please lock this thread? I think it already ran its course. Thank you.

[Poodmund]

 

[JonnyOThan]

Here’s the thing:  as a modder, I spend a disproportionate amount of time helping people that didn’t use CKAN, and whose problems probably would have been prevented by doing so.  It makes me upset to see people claiming - without any evidence - that CKAN installs things wrong, isn’t good for planet packs, etc etc.  Propagating that idea indirectly wastes my time, which I could have spent working on mods.

CKAN is by no means perfect. But if there are problems to fix, *someone needs to tell us*.  I acknowledged early on in the other thread that the compatible game versions are a stumbling block for new users, and we’ll take a look at improving it.

[Mr. Kerbin]

 

The mod maker said to download manually and then that worked.

(look at the attached post then read the one below)

It’s not just 1.8+ mods.

Edited Saturday at 01:43 AM by Mr. Kerbin

[JonnyOThan]

14 minutes ago, Mr. Kerbin said:

The mod maker said to download manually and then that worked.

Thanks, this is actually something I can investigate.  I'll also note that that thread is FULL of people who manually installed and had problems too - so it may be difficult to sort out whether CKAN is doing something wrong or what.  Most of the time it's just a missing piece of dependency metadata.  It would be really helpful if mod authors actually got in contact with the CKAN team if they think their mods are being installed incorrectly.

[The Minmus Derp]

13 minutes ago, JonnyOThan said:

Thanks, this is actually something I can investigate.  I'll also note that that thread is FULL of people who manually installed and had problems too - so it may be difficult to sort out whether CKAN is doing something wrong or what.  Most of the time it's just a missing piece of dependency metadata.  It would be really helpful if mod authors actually got in contact with the CKAN team if they think their mods are being installed incorrectly.

The thing with manual install problems is that those are things I can generally fix. Not to put too fine a point on it, but I have enough problems that I inadvertently create without having to deal with the litany of problems produced by other people as well. I have a life, and making KSP mods is not the top priority in that life, so putting time aside to talk the CKAN people through making my mod work would take time away from actually making the mod.

[JonnyOThan]

25 minutes ago, The Minmus Derp said:

The thing with manual install problems is that those are things I can generally fix. Not to put too fine a point on it, but I have enough problems that I inadvertently create without having to deal with the litany of problems produced by other people as well. I have a life, and making KSP mods is not the top priority in that life, so putting time aside to talk the CKAN people through making my mod work would take time away from actually making the mod.

I mean, you wrote several posts in your thread implying CKAN was doing something wrong. All you need to do is ping one of the CKAN maintainers.  None of us were aware of these problems.

For what it’s worth, I reproduced a kopernicus load failure when installing the 4 OPX mods and parallax off CKAN.  I’m out of time for tonight and haven’t dug in any further, but maybe this is just an incompatibility with parallax?

 

[Mr. Kerbin]

Well, tomorrow, try without Parallax.

EDIT: The mod says Parallax compatibility is coming in the distant future.

Edited Saturday at 01:37 AM by Mr. Kerbin

[JonnyOThan]

@The Minmus Derp should these mods be marked as conflicting with parallax in CKAN?

[The Minmus Derp]

8 minutes ago, JonnyOThan said:

@The Minmus Derp should these mods be marked as conflicting with parallax in CKAN?

This is something I'm not sure about – @JoshTheKerbal, who created several objects for OPX-InnerWorlds, wrote parallax configs for three of those objects and they seem to work perfectly. InnerWorlds at least doesn't, but if the main four do than that would probably be helpful. I'm not sure why they conflict though, and that's a problem I'd like to figure out at some point when I'm not drowning in school work. Thanks for the tip, though.