[1.12.X] Tantares - Stockalike Soyuz and MIR [16.1][28.05.2024][Mars Expedition WIP]

[legoclone09]

@Beale Could you move the Khleb crew module to Simple Command Modules and move the Vostok module to Enhanced Survivability for Yemo's Unmanned before Manned? I'd love it because having a crewed command pod at the very start when I only have a Stayputnik is a little immersion breaking. I can make the patch if you would like, though.

[Beale]

4 hours ago, InsaneDruid said:

Will the DCM-NXL (Alnair-Crew B) aka the TKS double-cone be flipped again? And will there be an adapter to mate it to the proton (like my "TKS Fairing Extender")?

The current orientation is how it's going to stay

A 2.5m fairing base (or fairing bases) will for sure be a part of new Proton.

22 minutes ago, legoclone09 said:

@Beale Could you move the Khleb crew module to Simple Command Modules and move the Vostok module to Enhanced Survivability for Yemo's Unmanned before Manned? I'd love it because having a crewed command pod at the very start when I only have a Stayputnik is a little immersion breaking. I can make the patch if you would like, though.

Any tech tree suggestions are very welcome, because I'm not very good at balancing that.

That being said, is the move of Vostok to Survivability a popular choice?  

 

 

WIP

 

[legoclone09]

6 minutes ago, Beale said:

That being said, is the move of Vostok to Survivability a popular choice?  

To Enhanced Survivability for Unmanned Before Manned would be lovely, and to Survivability for stock would also be nice. It is better than the Mk1 Pod I think.

[planeguy868]

Well I'm back (finally), and wow, Tantares has changed a lot!  Sorry my TMA textures aren't up to date with the new Soyuz models, but with 1.1 coming soon having some nice thermal blankets won't hurt, so I'll try to get on that!

Haven't been doing much/any KSP or texture work these past few months, been way too busy with real life (and a job, hooray!), but I managed to get some decent looking Atlas and Delta tanks from the Soyuz LV parts in TantaresLV (because using procedural parts never quite occurred to me).

 

Edited February 10, 2016 by planeguy868
because i dont need to answer to anyone

[Svm420]

If The Gemini capsule is to be 1.5 then shouldn't the Soyuz capsule be 1.5 as well? They aren't that different in size IRL.

[CobaltWolf]

14 hours ago, planeguy868 said:

Well I'm back (finally), and wow, Tantares has changed a lot!  Sorry my TMA textures aren't up to date with the new Soyuz models, but with 1.1 coming soon having some nice thermal blankets won't hurt, so I'll try to get on that!

Haven't been doing much/any KSP or texture work these past few months, been way too busy with real life (and a job, hooray!), but I managed to get some decent looking Atlas and Delta tanks from the Soyuz LV parts in TantaresLV (because using procedural parts never quite occurred to me).

But... I already put so much time into Atlas and Delta so you wouldn't have to!

1 minute ago, Svm420 said:

If The Gemini capsule is to be 1.5 then shouldn't the Soyuz capsule be 1.5 as well? They aren't that different in size IRL.

*cough*doitbeale*cough*

Do you mean the capsule itself or Gemini as a whole (including the SM?)

[curtquarquesso]

13 minutes ago, Svm420 said:

If The Gemini capsule is to be 1.5 then shouldn't the Soyuz capsule be 1.5 as well? They aren't that different in size IRL.

It would be a BIG job. Everything in the add-on revolves around the Soyuz capsule being 1.25m. It would throw a lot of things off.

I've created a Gemini capsule for Beale that's 1.5m, but he hasn't actually committed to revamping Gemini as such. He's working on Proton and eventually Ariane at the moment.

Edited February 10, 2016 by curtquarquesso

[CobaltWolf]

26 minutes ago, curtquarquesso said:

It would be a BIG job. Everything in the add-on revolves around the Soyuz capsule being 1.25m. It would throw a lot of things off.

I've created a Gemini capsule for Beale that's 1.5m, but he hasn't actually committed to revamping Gemini as such. He's working on Proton and eventually Ariane at the moment.

And as a result, I'm starting to fear that I'll have to actually make the darn thing instead of shunting it off to him. Darn

(EDIT: I'd actually rather see a revamp of Proton and a finished Ariane V anyways)

On a more serious note, wouldn't the sizing for everything else remain the same? The kerbal scale diameters of everything else assume a 0.625-ish scale, and isn't it just the Soyuz that is small?

Edited February 10, 2016 by CobaltWolf

[InsaneDruid]

Lets take the Proton as a base. Original diameter is 4100mm, mod size is 2500mm, gives a ratio of .60975. Reentry Capsule of a Sojus is 2170mm in real diameter. So actually 1.25m ingame is closer to protons scale than the 1,5m version would be (which would be 0,6912 scale of the real sojus). So speaking of pure size, its rather the gemini that is too big. That said, the sojus rocket is "too small" even for the small sojus capsule (2660m diameter of the third stage shrunk to 1250mm ingame, which is .467, causing the sojus' service module beeing to big for the stage3.

 

Then again, its Stock KSP, not RSS and playability and the "lego factor" where you cant have too many sizes come into play.

[legoclone09]

1 hour ago, InsaneDruid said:

Lets take the Proton as a base. Original diameter is 4100mm, mod size is 2500mm, gives a ratio of .60975. Reentry Capsule of a Sojus is 2170mm in real diameter. So actually 1.25m ingame is closer to protons scale than the 1,5m version would be (which would be 0,6912 scale of the real sojus). So speaking of pure size, its rather the gemini that is too big. That said, the sojus rocket is "too small" even for the small sojus capsule (2660m diameter of the third stage shrunk to 1250mm ingame, which is .467, causing the sojus' service module beeing to big for the stage3.

 

Then again, its Stock KSP, not RSS and playability and the "lego factor" where you cant have too many sizes come into play.

Maybe up the Soyuz launcher to 1.5m for sizing?

[curtquarquesso]

1 hour ago, CobaltWolf said:

And as a result, I'm starting to fear that I'll have to actually make the darn thing instead of shunting it off to him. Darn
(EDIT: I'd actually rather see a revamp of Proton and a finished Ariane V anyways)
On a more serious note, wouldn't the sizing for everything else remain the same? The kerbal scale diameters of everything else assume a 0.625-ish scale, and isn't it just the Soyuz that is small?

I think where people get confused, is when they assume that the stock Mk1 Pod is equal to the Mercury capsule. (1.9m) I don't do this, because Mercury only flew and handful of times, and the program only lasted 5 years. The Soyuz program on the other hand, is the longest running manned spaceflight program to date. It's far more significant. I'd much rather Soyuz be a convenient size increment like 1.25m than Mercury. It's more convenient to fudge Mercury up to 1.25m than it is to fudge Soyuz up to 1.5m.

If you do make the assumption that the Mk1 Pod is perfectly equal to the Mercury capsule, then, the Soyuz capsule would equal 1.447m in KSP, which is close enough to 1.5m. This is not the way I do it.

The only exception to this rule is Gemini. By the Soyuz scaling, Gemini should be nearly same, but due to the service/retro module's strange dimensions, this leaves us with a bunch of messy sizes. When you make Gemini 1.25m, the diameter for the Titan II GLV becomes 1.733m, the RCS/parachute block becomes 0.556m, and it's all just nasty. 

Once you fudge the Gemini capsule to 1.5m, the GLV becomes pretty close to 1.875m, the RCS/parachute block becomes 0.625m, and everything is once again consistent, and "lego-like."

52 minutes ago, InsaneDruid said:

Lets take the Proton as a base. Original diameter is 4100mm, mod size is 2500mm, gives a ratio of .60975. Reentry Capsule of a Sojus is 2170mm in real diameter. So actually 1.25m ingame is closer to protons scale than the 1,5m version would be (which would be 0,6912 scale of the real sojus). So speaking of pure size, its rather the gemini that is too big. That said, the sojus rocket is "too small" even for the small sojus capsule (2660m diameter of the third stage shrunk to 1250mm ingame, which is .467, causing the sojus' service module beeing to big for the stage3.

Then again, its Stock KSP, not RSS and playability and the "lego factor" where you cant have too many sizes come into play.

This is how I do it too!

On the R7/Soyuz scaling, you are correct. It's definitely not scaled correctly against Soyuz. The third stage, and the top of the core stage, and the bottom of the strap-on boosters should be equal to 1.5m, to properly support a 1.25m Soyuz. (Recall that the flared base of the Soyuz propulsion section is roughly 1.5m in diameter.) I have in the past remade these parts for my own use with correct dimensions. It's not all that bad to work with really. The slimmer portion of the core stage still scales roughly to 1.25m, but Beale's R7 is definitely slimmed down for the sake of convenient part diameter increments. 

[CobaltWolf]

5 minutes ago, curtquarquesso said:

I think where people get confused, is when they assume that the stock Mk1 Pod is equal to the Mercury capsule. (1.9m) I don't do this, because Mercury only flew and handful of times, and the program only lasted 5 years. The Soyuz program on the other hand, is the longest running manned spaceflight program to date. It's far more significant. I'd much rather Soyuz be a convenient size increment like 1.25m than Mercury. It's more convenient to fudge Mercury up to 1.25m than it is to fudge Soyuz up to 1.5m.

If you do make the assumption that the Mk1 Pod is perfectly equal to the Mercury capsule, then, the Soyuz capsule would equal 1.447m in KSP, which is close enough to 1.5m. This is not the way I do it.

The only exception to this rule is Gemini. By the Soyuz scaling, Gemini should be nearly same, but due to the service/retro module's strange dimensions, this leaves us with a bunch of messy sizes. When you make Gemini 1.25m, the diameter for the Titan II GLV becomes 1.733m, the RCS/parachute block becomes 0.556m, and it's all just nasty. 

Once you fudge the Gemini capsule to 1.5m, the GLV becomes pretty close to 1.875m, the RCS/parachute block becomes 0.625m, and everything is once again consistent, and "lego-like."

Well one of the good things about the 1.0.5 update is that you can toggle the autoshrouds. So what you COULD do is still use strange sizes, for example the diameter of the bottom of the decoupler and the top of the SM, and just include autoshrouds that make up the difference using shrouds.

[curtquarquesso]

15 minutes ago, CobaltWolf said:

Well one of the good things about the 1.0.5 update is that you can toggle the autoshrouds. So what you COULD do is still use strange sizes, for example the diameter of the bottom of the decoupler and the top of the SM, and just include autoshrouds that make up the difference using shrouds.

Toggle-able shrouds could be made so much better if they they could allow authors to include multiple meshes for different size shrouds/interstages/tankbutts for users to cycle though in the tweakable menu. Procedural stuff is always tricky, because you're stretching a single texture over a user-specified mesh, and it can often look bad compared to a properly modeled and textured mesh.

[OTmikhail]

@Beale Wow Dude! That Proton WIP looks soooo Nice! Question though: Do you still intend to have the engines and fuel tank as a single part or will you be splitting them up? Personally I really like it as a single part and don't want that to change, although ultimately its up to you of course. Keep up the great work.

[CobaltWolf]

28 minutes ago, curtquarquesso said:

Toggle-able shrouds could be made so much better if they they could allow authors to include multiple meshes for different size shrouds/interstages/tankbutts for users to cycle though in the tweakable menu. Procedural stuff is always tricky, because you're stretching a single texture over a user-specified mesh, and it can often look bad compared to a properly modeled and textured mesh.

I believe that in one of the [recent-ish] dev notes they brought up the possibility of letting users include several meshes that you could cycle through, but I haven't heard  about it since. Personally I would cry tears of joy because you'd be able to make far more accurate rockets by including adapters as the autoshroud, which is the case in a great many rocket designs.

Edited February 10, 2016 by CobaltWolf

[planeguy868]

7 hours ago, CobaltWolf said:

But... I already put so much time into Atlas and Delta so you wouldn't have to!

*cough*doitbeale*cough*

Do you mean the capsule itself or Gemini as a whole (including the SM?)

I knowwwwwww, but I actually don't do a "Stockalike" texture style, I'm basically stand-up guyizing Tantares parts as my own form of Procedural Parts... Why?  The world may never know.  I did make a practical monolithic Delta IV tank (and I used your Centaur tanks rescaled to make a DCSS), plus I still have my old Ariane 6 textures sooooooo.

 

[Beale]

On 2/10/2016 at 5:59 AM, planeguy868 said:

Well I'm back (finally), and wow, Tantares has changed a lot!  Sorry my TMA textures aren't up to date with the new Soyuz models, but with 1.1 coming soon having some nice thermal blankets won't hurt, so I'll try to get on that!

Haven't been doing much/any KSP or texture work these past few months, been way too busy with real life (and a job, hooray!), but I managed to get some decent looking Atlas and Delta tanks from the Soyuz LV parts in TantaresLV (because using procedural parts never quite occurred to me).

 

Really pretty! Great job (And great finding a job)!

16 hours ago, Svm420 said:

If The Gemini capsule is to be 1.5 then shouldn't the Soyuz capsule be 1.5 as well? They aren't that different in size IRL.

It should probably be 1.875m, or near that.

But, it would be too much work, and I am not that concerned for accuracy in this regard (Tantares will always be 1.25m unless there's a radical shift in stock sizes).

 

On a side note, it looks like PBR is out for 1.1, unfortunately.  

 

[Beale]

ALV Mk3!

It's a pretty one! I am really happy how this turned out.

It is a good perspective when you consider this is only the third Proton I have modelled, while some craft like the Soyuz are on their 6th iteration! 
The current Proton parts are old!

 

Edited February 11, 2016 by Beale

[legoclone09]

Awesome work! I can't wait for the release!!!

[Beale]

12 minutes ago, legoclone09 said:

Awesome work! I can't wait for the release!!!

Thanks!

I think a line-up is also in proper order, the N-1 looks very out of date now! 
The Ariane is also ridiculously huge! But that will be fixed!

I'm going to take a short break from the Proton to plan out the Gemini  

Edited February 11, 2016 by Beale

[InsaneDruid]

Nice.

Though I am not THAT happy with the fairings between the engines. So many models have them wrong (besides, some have completely wrong diameters of the whole craft even in RSS/RO ;)). The Fairings don't just extend down, they go outwards! They shall redirect the airflow around the engine exhaust wenn the engines gimbal (and thus the exhaust plume tilts outwards into the space between the outrigger tanks. So they have to be visible when looking from above, between the fuel tanks.

Also the top should not be inset. Its a smooth heatshield-dome as it has to protect the central ox trank from the flames of the RD-0210/11 Engines and let their exhaust flow nicely away. The Proton uses hot staging like so many older russian designs, so the lower stage has to survive over 3.5 seconds of the stage2 engines already burning. And that exhaust has to flow away, through the open truss interstage. Such a "crown" around the edge of the tank would catch the hot gases.

 

I know its heavily stylized, but.. ;)

[SSgt Baloo]

I love this parts pack, but I am so unfamiliar with the Soviet designs that I have very little idea how to assemble them into a replica of a Soviet space vehicle, and there do not appear to be any craft files included in the  original download. Is there a guide or instruction manual to walk someone through the process of constructing one?

[Beale]

2 hours ago, InsaneDruid said:

Nice.

Though I am not THAT happy with the fairings between the engines. So many models have them wrong (besides, some have completely wrong diameters of the whole craft even in RSS/RO ;)). The Fairings don't just extend down, they go outwards! They shall redirect the airflow around the engine exhaust wenn the engines gimbal (and thus the exhaust plume tilts outwards into the space between the outrigger tanks. So they have to be visible when looking from above, between the fuel tanks.

Also the top should not be inset. Its a smooth heatshield-dome as it has to protect the central ox trank from the flames of the RD-0210/11 Engines and let their exhaust flow nicely away. The Proton uses hot staging like so many older russian designs, so the lower stage has to survive over 3.5 seconds of the stage2 engines already burning. And that exhaust has to flow away, through the open truss interstage. Such a "crown" around the edge of the tank would catch the hot gases.

 

I know its heavily stylized, but..

Thanks for the feedback!

Yes those engine fairing parts currently look more like mud-flaps than their real purpose. They're quite tricky to model, but I'll give it another shot.

For the Top node, it's Inset for the sake of being stylized with the other parts  (Plus, hot staging is a little too destructive in KSP, unless I'm doing something wrong).

1 hour ago, SSgt Baloo said:

I love this parts pack, but I am so unfamiliar with the Soviet designs that I have very little idea how to assemble them into a replica of a Soviet space vehicle, and there do not appear to be any craft files included in the  original download. Is there a guide or instruction manual to walk someone through the process of constructing one?

There are some craft files on the main page, which may be a little out of date, but may generally work.

My best advice is to look at the image gallery on the front page. You can see where the parts go quite well, there are no parts hidden  

[spacecookie]

Your revamped proton is awesome so far ! ( Still planning to ad a vertical red ALV III on the second stage ? that would be great ).

Don't take it for laziness but I got a bit lost with the new proton sizing conversation, is there a new standard ? And any new thrust values ?

[CobaltWolf]

Dern, the diagonal bottoms of the boosters are my fav part.

EDIT:

Also, @curtquarquesso on the topic of sizing I don't assume that Mercury scales to 1.25m in game, I though that generally everything was just 62.5% / 64% of IRL size and then rounded to the closest diameter.

 

Edited February 11, 2016 by CobaltWolf