What should be worked on after .24?

[Northstar1989]

It works for the gameplay. I don't see the problem with the ratio.

ANYTHING would propel a rocket for gameplay- right down to a single magical "Rocketfuel" resource. But it's not fun or convenient- so does it really WORK?

A 2:1 ratio of Oxidizer to Liquidfuel (like in Methane/LOX) or Liquidfuel to Oxidizer (like in LH2/LOX) would be MUCH simpler to work with in-game, even if they didn't follow realistic densities- and would also make it easy to fix the mass ratio in the future if they wanted...

I should, however, point out that having separate "jet fuel" and "Liquidfuel" resources isn't strictly *necessary* per say- some real life rockets were designed to work off jet fuel, much like rockets in KSP seem to, so the current dual-use of fuels isn't strictly unacceptable...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RP-1#RP-1-like_fuels

However the ISP values for such fuels are much less than for LH2/LOX- which is what most rockets in KSP seem to work off based on their ISP ratings...

Perhaps it wouldn't be such a bad thing if the devs nerfed ISP ratings a bit, to bring them more in line with hydrocarbon fuels... (since Kerbin is already 1/10th scale, and fuel densities are already much higher than LH2/LOX mixture...)

Regards,

Northstar

Edited June 12, 2014 by Northstar1989

[Dodgey]

I honestly don't see the problem, it sounds like your concern is that it isn't realistic. Is that it?

[allmhuran]

Such as? because, aside from crew tasks, you haven't listed anything that doesn't require aerodynamics as a prerequisite, or isn't already on a long/slow development backburner... (to use a cooking analogy)

http://wiki.kerbalspaceprogram.com/wiki/Planned_features

Add to this career mode, budgets and their integration with science (since they're only just being released in 0.24, we can surmise that there's a lot of development still to come there) and science itself (which seems to be even more of a placeholder than aerodynamics at the moment).

I get that you want better aerodynamics (most of us do), and I get that you personally want it a lot (no problem), and I get that you personally like realistic chemistry, and I get that you have your reasons for liking these things (as everyone does). But be careful that personal bias doesn't lead you to believe that these things are therefore the objectively best "next development target".

In the end I think the measure of what is "least developed" is qualitative, since any quantitative measure you try to name (number of times the component has been updated, number of lines of code written, whatever) is deceptive. So if squad is going to target "whatever is least developed", then the only way to really know their intention is to ask what they feel is least developed.

[AlamoVampire]

id love personally to see some things like better re-entry effects, heat damage, persistent trails of plasma <dont have to be very long <<like the smoke plumes we see during ascent>> > from re-entry <most, if not all this has been suggested already> and ya, weather. Yea, I know theres a mod for it, at least visually, but, id like it stock XD

[Pulstar]

Crew skills or perks, gained by total flight time, training (only up to a basic level) or contracts fulfilled, so that your Kerbal Space Exploration veterans, while still rocket fodder in the name of Science, seem more valuable alive. If only because hiring a skilled expert replacement costs a lot of funds.

Basically get experience and spend it to increase skills or unlock perks. Kerbals themselves could be divided into classes or have a total limit of skills they can posses, so that none of them ever become jack of all trades, master of all and players have to think who to put into their pods. Teamwork is vital for all crews in space, KSP should reflect it.

The astronaut training center really needs a use and I think this is a very good area to explore next.

Skills could work as a linear progression to the full skill bonus, like up to a total of 20%. As a rule of thumb they should not affect delta-v (apart from possibly doing so indirectly by for instance reducing power usage and thus the total mass of power generation parts on a rover or something since you put less of them on it).

Some skill ideas:

Engineering - reduces vessel electrical power usage and increases overheating tolerance.

Piloting - increases turn rate or response from reaction wheels and ailerons.

Driving - better braking force from rover wheels, rover wheels more resistant to impact/force, better rover top speed.

Exploration - better EVA pack usage, more EVA pack thrust and ISP, increased science yield from crew reports.

Geology - surface sample and seismic sensor science yield increase.

Physics - pressure data, temperature data, atmospheric analysis and gravity sensor data science yield increase.

Communications - better signal strength and less data loss during transmissions.

Perks could be anything but they would require experience and/or certain level of skill to unlock. For example they could unlock new experiments for scientists, the ability to repair certain broken parts for engineers (shattered solar panels for instance). It could be the ability to see a predicted landing site based on the surface's rotation and atmosphere slowing you down (kind of like mechjeb does). Stuff that doesn't really scale well with use and is better represented as a binary can/can't do skill.

The other thing I would like to see is some basic life support. Basically having to worry that kerbals don't run out of power or else CO2 scrubbers go offline and everybody asphyxiates. Also food and water supplies. Pods by themselves would carry enough for LKO or Minmus/Mun missions by default, but if you want to go to Duna you'd need to add mass in the form of a hitchiker's module or supply part filled with extra snacks for the trip. End of the tech tree parts could include hydroponics gardens and other parts enabling long term trips into deep space or continued habitation of space stations without resupply missions. Though I fear life support kind of stuff would have lower priority and it would probably be tied to difficulty levels.

Edited June 12, 2014 by Pulstar

[Vallius]

Now that we have to worry about money, and there is an incentive for recovering parts, I think the next logical update should try to fix the aerodynamics model. That being said, I'm sure it would be a challenging update. I do multi-physics simulation for work, and making all these algorithms work well together can be a beast. Are there any core mechanics that SQUAD is planning other than multiplayer?

[StrandedonEarth]

How about being able to acquire skills allowing a skilled kerbal to salvage parts and (re)build stuff off of Kerbin. Something like KAS on steroids? (I must try KAS one day.)

How about simply adding KAS to stock?

[Pulstar]

Are there any core mechanics that SQUAD is planning other than multiplayer?

That is mostly a mystery, although a few major things that have been mentioned in the past year or so come to mind.

- kerbal skills/experience

- life support (possibly as a "higher difficulty" toggle)

- heatshields and re-entry heat (possibly as a "higher difficulty" toggle)

- payload fairings and improved aerodynamics

Out of those I would only speculate that kerbal skills and life support could end up getting implemented before scope completion, fairings and heatshields would need the aerodynamics reworks to happen first (which IMO is unlikely to happen before career mode core features are done, but who knows).

Some minor features that also have been mentioned around: proper science data loss/antenna range mechanics based on distance, discovering celestial bodies such as Moons (telescopes on probes?), repairing vessels in flight (jury rigging?).

Apart from that the issue is mostly polish and content which is supposed to be the goal beyond scope completion. Adding new biomes and new surface features to planets/moons (procedural craters, geysers, volcanoes, cities on Kerbin), planetary weather effects, eye-candy here and there, new celestial bodies, more contract types, new experiment types, various minor but often requested parts (airbags for lithobraking, electric propellers, nuclear reactors, balloons and other parts mods did, you get the idea), re-balancing everything, optimization, implementing an "endgame" goal of career mode and of course reworking the aerodynamics model.

[Sky_walker]

- kerbal skills/experience

- life support (possibly as a "higher difficulty" toggle)

- heatshields and re-entry heat (possibly as a "higher difficulty" toggle)

- payload fairings and improved aerodynamics

TBH: I'd prefer to see any of these by far more than a multiplayer component.

[Pthigrivi]

I think there's a pretty solid consensus here on Aerodynamics, and I whole-heartedly agree. Fairings and cargo-bays included. Weather and re-entry heat would depend on it and could come soon after. Multiplayer would be great too, but we'll see. Life support and resource mining would really make the game, but I get that these are development luxuries at the moment. I'm sure like with .23 for science they'll be doing some career overhaul work and flushing out contracts.

Has anyone come up with a convincing way crew training would be sensical and fun? What would a highly experienced Kerbal be good for? I thought the devs were pretty against doing anything autopilot. I mean I love the idea that individual kerbals could develop skills I just haven't seen anyone explain how that would actually work. To be honest, just giving kerbals random individual appearance would make my day. I wont get on my high feminist horse about why this is vital.

Some under-appreciated items I feel could use some attention:

- Vessel stats like mass, TWR, dV etc viewable in the VAB and in flight

- In-game launch window calculator/scheduler ala Kerbal Alarm Clock

- Some Nav-Ball touch ups like ghosted far-side vectors

- Clouds. They'd just make things so much prettier. We don't even need weather, but volumetric would be amazing during lift-off.

2c

Edited June 30, 2014 by Pthigrivi

[Vaporo]

I've seen a "reputation" currency mentioned a few times. I don't know if it's still planned or not, but reputation is what I want to see.

[ngianoplus]

Crew skills or perks, gained by total flight time, training (only up to a basic level) or contracts fulfilled, so that your Kerbal Space Exploration veterans, while still rocket fodder in the name of Science, seem more valuable alive. If only because hiring a skilled expert replacement costs a lot of funds.

Basically get experience and spend it to increase skills or unlock perks. Kerbals themselves could be divided into classes or have a total limit of skills they can posses, so that none of them ever become jack of all trades, master of all and players have to think who to put into their pods. Teamwork is vital for all crews in space, KSP should reflect it.

This is crucial for Kerbal skills to work properly, realistically, and be fun/non-grindy.

[theend3r]

Basically everything except multiplayer, I'm never going to touch it anyway.

New VAB/SPH with better working symmetry, reliable undo/redo, better camera control, better control when rotating parts, maybe being able to rotate stuff in even finer steps. Control in which frame of reference the rotation is.

Lastly, I would love some sort of global axis snapping so that you could attach landing gear level and facing forward on any surface.

After all, the construction scene is half the playtime, is it not?

^ This 100%

[LethalDose]

TBH: I'd prefer to see any of these by far more than a multiplayer component.

I totally agree, and I don't think we're alone.

[iStickyDuck]

I don't think there will ever be a major endgame thing, but perhaps they could do something similar to what they did in Spore where going to the centre of the galaxy was pretty endgame... Something along those lines would be cool

[Pulstar]

I don't think there will ever be a major endgame thing, but perhaps they could do something similar to what they did in Spore where going to the centre of the galaxy was pretty endgame... Something along those lines would be cool

A very very ancient and probably no longer planned idea for an endgame that was thrown around by somebody on the dev team involved scouring bodies of the Kerbal solar system for alien artifacts or some other fantastical macguffin, allowing you to eventually build a warp drive. From a sandbox game perspective it kind of makes sense, there's stuff out there, go find it however you wish in whatever order you wish. The basic idea for any endgame goal in KSP should be to make the player explore most of the system.

The alternative for a game like KSP would be something equivalent to Civilization's Science Victory. Basically advance far enough in the tech tree and get enough money to assemble a nuclear/antimatter pulse engine powered interstellar ship. Problem with that would be that it's rather grindy.

[Superfluous J]

A very very ancient and probably no longer planned idea for an endgame that was thrown around by somebody on the dev team involved scouring bodies of the Kerbal solar system for alien artifacts or some other fantastical macguffin, allowing you to eventually build a warp drive. From a sandbox game perspective it kind of makes sense, there's stuff out there, go find it however you wish in whatever order you wish. The basic idea for any endgame goal in KSP should be to make the player explore most of the system.

While I don't know if that should (or would) ever be in the core game, a mod that did something like this could be really fun. Put a bunch of tech in an inaccessible tech node, and then randomly place items throughout the system. Once you find the item, it is moved from the hidden tech node to node 0 and you can use it.

Would make for a fun way to play at least a few times, methinks.

[Eric S]

- kerbal skills/experience

- life support (possibly as a "higher difficulty" toggle)

- heatshields and re-entry heat (possibly as a "higher difficulty" toggle)

- payload fairings and improved aerodynamics

I can't say that those are still planned, but all have been discussed as having at least some dev interest. I only remember life support being discussed by the devs in a receptive manner back when the ISRU chart was being discussed because some of the resources were tagged for life support use, so I certainly wouldn't get my hopes up for that, or anything else on that list for that matter.

I'll agree with those that say that multiplayer isn't high on their list (of non-career-mode related mechanisms, the four you mentioned are probably top picks as well), about all I'd want to use it for would be with some kind of observer mode so that I can help people new to KSP. On the other hand, I've been around long enough to remember a time before multiplayer was officially discussed, and it was requested fairly often, so I can accept that I don't know whether or not I'm in the majority.

[tmbrodie]

I desperately hope it's something other than career mode. I am sick of updates focused on telling me what to do instead of giving me more to do.

I see the value of the career mode/contracts as a way to teach what can be done, and how it can be done -- as a preliminary to freeing us to launch out into adventures we might otherwise not be able to do, or even know to do. When you're limited in access to tech by the science tree, there is a discipline to learning to use what you have effectively so that when you're in a much more difficult place you can both construct and execute an appropriate solution. There's also the development of how we think about that tech in its limitations and application.

For example, (for me) I found that the lack of parts early in the science tree caused great challenge in landing on Mun and Minmus, especially when trying to land within a hundred meters of a previous landing site. The skills gained in doing this mini goal enabled better understanding and appropriate skills to accomplish the mechanics of orbital rendezvous. If I tried the latter without the former, then it was only somewhat through luck that it got done. Kind of scratching my head... hmmm how did I get that done again? Having an early tree contract offered to do a Minmus landing would have gently moved me to that sooner, and I would have advanced faster.

So what would be fun for me would be to have a more open end game after the science tree career that wouldn't open up until the tree was done. Even if it was, there would be no point as to actually play the end game would require skills and thinking that would be absent if you hadn't climbed the tree via appropriate contracts/goals. I mean, the initial value of watching someone's YT of how to do something often results in first saying, "what, you can do that?!" Then a time where you can't even get there to try it out yet, let alone get any traction on what the person was demonstrating. Then finally you get there, and wow, that demo was actually very awesome 'cause it made the whole difference to my success!

So totally resonate with your idea of "more to do" -- its what I also envision as this end game. We gain skills, tech and methodology to explore the unexplored -- and without those -- remains the unexplorable.

[MR4Y]

Assuming the unlikely possibility that we will get 0.24...Better communication with the community that paid your salaries and was able to push the developing of your game to where it is now.

[technicalfool]

I'd like to see a stock mod manager at some point. A way of being able to start a game save with a choice of X, Y or Z mods out of the list you have installed.

[Javster]

How about a polish of the parts, making them work together, especially spaceplanes, adding IVA for the lab (which I am waiting for since last december) and all the other parts which lack them/have placeholders.

[r4pt0r]

Assuming the unlikely possibility that we will get 0.24...Better communication with the community that paid your salaries and was able to push the developing of your game to where it is now.

i dont think they need to do that at all. its nice enough we get devnotes every week. you seem like a glass half empty kinda person.

[velve]

I'd like to see a stock mod manager at some point. A way of being able to start a game save with a choice of X, Y or Z mods out of the list you have installed.

This would be nice, just earlier I wanted to quickly test something without FAR and then with FAR installed, aannd just couldn't be bothered.

[Tangle]

I'd say better aerodynamics defiantly! I mean come on, we're still on the aerodynamics model from the first public version of the game!

EDIT: Oh, and here's a bit of a rant from a while ago:

No. If anything, it should be an option. Some people actually like having infiniglider fun.

Personally, I want stuff like bigger and better nuke engines.