[1.4.1] Kerbal Construction Time 1.4.0.69 (2018-03-24) - Unrapid Planned Assembly

[IronCretin]

How well does this support Kerbal Konstructs? Are different launchpads considered separate for the purposes of reconditioning and such?

[magico13]

2 hours ago, IronCretin said:

How well does this support Kerbal Konstructs? Are different launchpads considered separate for the purposes of reconditioning and such?

Supposedly there are some issues when using the latest version of Kerbal Konstructs but I haven't gotten a chance to look into them. If it were working correctly, each separate launchpad would be considered separately with regards to rollout and reconditioning. You can change the launchsite for any vessel through the "*" then "Select Launchsite" buttons at any time before rollout.

[Maxsimal]

Hi, I've been playing RP0 with KCT and loving it.

One thing that gets me often though is crashes - I'm kind of used to it by now, but losing non-autosaved rockets is kind of annoying.   This is doubly so when I'm trying to do edits to a recovered vehicle.

I was wondering if it would be possible to do the following.  I have an X-1 like craft, that I launch with booster rockets to get it up to speed.  Works great the first time, not so well with recovery.

What happens is that I recover the vehicle, and then go to edit it - usually I have to adjust the position of the craft, and replace the boosters, and replace the engine since it doesn't seem to get its ignitions reset..  That's kind of tedious, but even more so when I lose the edits to a crash from trying to simulate to make sure I hooked lined up correctly.

I'd really love if either you could save the edits in progress - or better yet, if you could have access to the load menu during the edits so I could just 'load' the original as my target for the edits, and then wait while my engineers strap the boosters back on.

Anyway, congrats on the marriage!  And thank you for the mod!

[magico13]

3 hours ago, Maxsimal said:

Hi, I've been playing RP0 with KCT and loving it.

One thing that gets me often though is crashes - I'm kind of used to it by now, but losing non-autosaved rockets is kind of annoying.   This is doubly so when I'm trying to do edits to a recovered vehicle.

I was wondering if it would be possible to do the following.  I have an X-1 like craft, that I launch with booster rockets to get it up to speed.  Works great the first time, not so well with recovery.

What happens is that I recover the vehicle, and then go to edit it - usually I have to adjust the position of the craft, and replace the boosters, and replace the engine since it doesn't seem to get its ignitions reset..  That's kind of tedious, but even more so when I lose the edits to a crash from trying to simulate to make sure I hooked lined up correctly.

I'd really love if either you could save the edits in progress - or better yet, if you could have access to the load menu during the edits so I could just 'load' the original as my target for the edits, and then wait while my engineers strap the boosters back on.

Anyway, congrats on the marriage!  And thank you for the mod!

Manual edits are supposed to be tedious. That's a design decision. If you want a "fresh" craft, then recover through the normal means and rebuild. The part inventory would cause that new build to take much less time than if you hadn't recovered the parts. KCT recover is basically "we just rolled this back into the hangar", while normal recover and rebuild is "we completely refurbished all these parts so they're like new". If you really want ignitions or other things reset, you can certainly add that yourself: check out this tutorial.

I've got plans to fix the craft positioning on KCT recover so it doesn't spawn in the floor/ceiling. For replacing the boosters, couldn't you just refill them? I haven't played with RP-0 enough to know for sure but in stock that's all you'd need to do.

I won't provide a "load" option, since that defeats the purpose of manual edits. But I will likely refine the editing process a bit so you're not shunted back to the KSC when you save edits.

Edit: simulations are going away in an update or two since that's being outsourced to KRASH

Edited March 19, 2016 by magico13

[StickyScissors]

3 hours ago, magico13 said:

I've got plans to fix the craft positioning on KCT recover so it doesn't spawn in the floor/ceiling. For replacing the boosters, couldn't you just refill them? I haven't played with RP-0 enough to know for sure but in stock that's all you'd need to do.

Will this prevent my aircraft and from flipping 90 degrees backwards and standing on their tail end when i recover a craft to SPH, then roll it back out/open in editor?

[magico13]

8 hours ago, StickyScissors said:

Will this prevent my aircraft and from flipping 90 degrees backwards and standing on their tail end when i recover a craft to SPH, then roll it back out/open in editor?

 

Probably not, but I'll try to see if I can do anything about that. It knows the orientation is messed up because as soon as you pick up any part, it flips to the correct orientation. So I can't just rotate it because then it would flip and face down when you select a part.

[severedsolo]

Silly minor thing, but I just found out that if you hold Escape when your simulation ends (and you have the "would you like to buy more time" box up) the simulation will continue, for free (but that box doesn't go away). I'm guessing you invoke the main menu "silently" and I'm turning it off for split seconds.

Edited March 19, 2016 by severedsolo

[Maxsimal]

19 hours ago, magico13 said:

Manual edits are supposed to be tedious. That's a design decision. If you want a "fresh" craft, then recover through the normal means and rebuild. The part inventory would cause that new build to take much less time than if you hadn't recovered the parts. KCT recover is basically "we just rolled this back into the hangar", while normal recover and rebuild is "we completely refurbished all these parts so they're like new". If you really want ignitions or other things reset, you can certainly add that yourself: check out this tutorial.

I've got plans to fix the craft positioning on KCT recover so it doesn't spawn in the floor/ceiling. For replacing the boosters, couldn't you just refill them? I haven't played with RP-0 enough to know for sure but in stock that's all you'd need to do.

I won't provide a "load" option, since that defeats the purpose of manual edits. But I will likely refine the editing process a bit so you're not shunted back to the KSC when you save edits.

Edit: simulations are going away in an update or two since that's being outsourced to KRASH

You can't refill boosters that you discard, hence the reason to edit them back on.  I'd try something like the 'real' X-1 where it was airdropped from a larger craft, but that'd be MUCH more difficult to recover and rebuild with KCT, and thus defeats the purpose.

I guess I will just avoid using the recover feature, as you suggest, though I think it's a shame there's no midpoint between 100% rebuild and 100% original for space shuttle type craft that are partially reusable.

 

[magico13]

13 minutes ago, Maxsimal said:

though I think it's a shame there's no midpoint between 100% rebuild and 100% original for space shuttle type craft that are partially reusable.

I mean, that's the point of the part inventory. Without the part inventory sure there's no midpoint, but the part inventory is the midpoint. I don't recall how much RP-0 nerfs the part inventory, but in "stock" KCT using the inventory cuts build times to about 1/10 of a new build, which is a hell of a lot better than if there were no inventory. For vessels that need a very quick turnaround (refuel and refly) then the KCT recover is usually faster than using the inventory, but I still recommend using the inventory when you can because it's less prone to bugs.

You can use the KCT recover and reattach parts through the edit function, in which case I highly recommend using subassemblies and simplifying the construction as much as possible. If the "progress" ever drops to 0 though then it isn't any faster than normal recover + rebuild. You just have to be ok with the tedium involved. The bugs regarding crashes are a fair complaint, however, and the whole process could be cleaned up a bit.

Edited March 19, 2016 by magico13

[theonegalen]

I got the dreaded "Unplayable" error.

Output_log is here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6ZYgATQfNhBWk5UQ0tfcUhZLWM/view?usp=sharing

 

EDIT: It may have been that I attempted to launch from a Kerbal Konstructs launchpad that I hadn't opened in KK's Career mode. Upon reverting and selecting the correct pad (KSC), the error did not immediately resurface.

Edited March 20, 2016 by theonegalen

[DiamondExcavater]

I don't want to make a whole new thread and post all the pictures and documents, but this link is an issue i have been having but I don't know where it is coming from..

Please help, thanks

[Rokker]

I run into this issue where if i accidentally type something like a ; instead of a : when typing in the simulation length, this happens and i cant find a way to fix it other than quitting out and restarting. https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/E58bXvFB/

[regex]

Let's say I want to create a mass-based sandbox preset without recovery considerations.  I want pad reconditioning, rollouts, and free simulations for places I've visited.  There will never be any upgrades (it's sandbox).  I'm starting with this:

KCT_Preset
{
    name = RO Sandbox
    shortName = ROSandbox
    description = Realism Overhaul mass-based sandbox config.
    author = regex
    allowDeletion = False
    career = False
    science = False
    sandbox = True
    KCT_Preset_General
    {
        Enabled = True
        BuildTimes = True
        ReconditioningTimes = True
        TechUnlockTimes = False
        KSCUpgradeTimes = False
        Simulations = True
        SimulationCosts = False
        RequireVisitsForSimulations = True
        TechUpgrades = False
        StartingPoints = 0,0,0
    }
    KCT_Preset_Time
    {
        OverallMultiplier = 1
        BuildEffect = 1
        InventoryEffect = 0
        ReconditioningEffect = 1
        MaxReconditioning = 345600 // Max BP
        RolloutReconSplit = 0.1
    }
}

Can I set MaxReconditioning to 0 and expect it to be unlimited?  If not, is there a way to set it to unlimited?

Next, there's this:

    KCT_Preset_Formula
    {
        EffectivePartFormula = [M]*1000*[B]
        ProceduralPartFormula = [M]*1000*[B]
        BPFormula = ([E]^0.5 * 101.6)*[O]
        ReconditioningFormula = ([BP]*0.02)*[E]
        BuildRateFormula = 0.01
        SimCostFormula = 0
        KerbinSimCostFormula = 0

        NodeFormula = 2^([N]+1) / 86400
        UpgradeFundsFormula = min(2^([N]+4) * 1000, 1024000)
        UpgradeScienceFormula = min(2^([N]+2) * 1.0, 512)
        ResearchFormula = [N]*0.5/86400
        KSCUpgradeFormula = ([C]^(1/2))*1000*[O]
        UpgradeResetFormula = 2*([N]+1)
        InventorySaleFormula = ([V]+[P] / 10000)^(0.5)
    }

I'm assuming that NodeFormula, UpgradeFundsFormula, UpgradeScienceFormula, ResearchFormula, KSCUpgradeFormula, UpgradeResetFormula, and InventorySaleFormula can all safely be ignored?

That leaves the following:

EffectivePartFormula = [M]*1000* // Convert to kilograms
ProceduralPartFormula = [M]*1000* // Convert to kilograms

These are both set to wet rollout mass multiplied by Build Effect.  The Build Point Formula should then just be the sum of those with some modifiers to match my later Build Rate.

BPFormula = ([E]^0.5 * 101.6)*[O]

The BuildRateFormula doesn't depend on recovery, inventory, or upgrades, I'm assuming I can just set it to 0.01, or 864 BP/day?  It's BP per second, right?

BuildRateFormula = 0.01

Reconditioning just uses 1/50 of the Build Points.

ReconditioningFormula = ([BP]*0.02)*[E]

Then I'm left with the following, which I set to 0 in the hopes that I could then run sims anytime I wanted.

SimCostFormula = 0
KerbinSimCostFormula = 0

Does all this look alright?  It's designed so that a Saturn V takes some 202 days to build with 4 days of pad reconditioning after launch, with a Soyuz-U coming in at a more reasonable 65 days with 1 day of reconditioning.

Edited March 22, 2016 by regex

[magico13]

On 3/20/2016 at 9:15 PM, theonegalen said:

I got the dreaded "Unplayable" error.

Output_log is here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6ZYgATQfNhBWk5UQ0tfcUhZLWM/view?usp=sharing

 

EDIT: It may have been that I attempted to launch from a Kerbal Konstructs launchpad that I hadn't opened in KK's Career mode. Upon reverting and selecting the correct pad (KSC), the error did not immediately resurface.

I think KCT doesn't work correctly with KK at the moment. I'll see if I can get it fixed for 1.1 but no promises. Compatibility with other mods isn't top priority at the moment. Once May rolls around, definitely, but before then KSP isn't something I've got time to think about too much.

On 3/20/2016 at 6:29 AM, DiamondExcavater said:

I don't want to make a whole new thread and post all the pictures and documents, but this link is an issue i have been having but I don't know where it is coming from..

Please help, thanks

I briefly looked at this when you posted it here and my best guess what a graphics card problem, but I've never really seen anything like that. Sorry I can't be of more help.

On 3/20/2016 at 4:20 PM, Rokker said:

I run into this issue where if i accidentally type something like a ; instead of a : when typing in the simulation length, this happens and i cant find a way to fix it other than quitting out and restarting. https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/E58bXvFB/

Known issue that the parser breaks badly on invalid characters :/ I'll try to get it fixed for 1.1. Once I switch KCT's math parsing and time parsing over to MagiCore it will take care of it for sure.

2 hours ago, regex said:

Let's say I want to create a mass-based sandbox preset without recovery considerations.  I want pad reconditioning, rollouts, and free simulations for places I've visited.  There will never be any upgrades (it's sandbox).  I'm starting with this:

Does all this look alright?  It's designed so that a Saturn V takes some 202 days to build with 4 days of pad reconditioning after launch, with a Soyuz-U coming in at a more reasonable 65 days with 1 day of reconditioning.

Looks good except for one thing:
The build rate formula might cause an infinite loop. Add a "*sign(9-[ I])" to the end of it which will give you 10 build queues. After the 10th it'll return a negative number and stop calculating. If you just want the one build rate set it to *sign(0-[ I]). Build rates are indeed BP per second.

 

Since it's sandbox you don't have to worry about costs anyway. They'll display (as zero since you have it set to that) but there aren't any funds in the first place.

Max reconditioning is just set as a variable in the reconditioning formula [X], so you don't need to set it to anything if you don't use that variable. It's a relic of the pre-Preset era and is just there for quick config changes.

If you notice something not working as expected when you test, let me know and I'll try to diagnose. It looks like it should be fine other than the build rate.

 

E: formatting screwy. Will fix later.

Edited March 23, 2016 by magico13

[regex]

3 minutes ago, magico13 said:

Looks good except for one thing:
The build rate formula might cause an infinite loop. Add a "*sign(9-)" to the end of it which will give you 10 build queues. After the 10th it'll return a negative number and stop calculating. If you just want the one build rate set it to *sign(0-). Build rates are indeed BP per second.

Fantastic, thanks!

3 minutes ago, magico13 said:

Max reconditioning is just set as a variable in the reconditioning formula [X], so you don't need to set it to anything if you don't use that variable. It's a relic of the pre-Preset era and is just there for quick config changes.

Perfect.

3 minutes ago, magico13 said:

If you notice something not working as expected when you test, let me know and I'll try to diagnose. It looks like it should be fine other than the build rate.

Again, thanks!  I'll be testing it tonight.

[Andem]

10 minutes ago, regex said:

Fantastic, thanks!

Perfect.

Again, thanks!  I'll be testing it tonight.

When you get this working, can you put a DL somewhere?

[regex]

8 minutes ago, Andem said:

When you get this working, can you put a DL somewhere?

I will, and I'll also talk to the gang about getting it into RO (not RP-0).  I'm not really one for career mode in KSP, even with the changes made by RP-0, but I've come to enjoy KCT despite my reservations literally years ago during its inception.

Edited March 23, 2016 by regex

[regex]

Got it working, and pretty well, IMO.  It's a tad off from what I had imagined but not by huge amounts; we're talking a few hours at 600,000kg levels.  That's plenty accurate for me.  I don't have a Saturn V to test with but my 400,000kg and 600,000kg craft looked plenty fine on build times.

Download link: https://www.dropbox.com/s/rbjsz1xstf0ixxp/ROSandbox.cfg?dl=0

I have an issue with the reconditioning time being the same as the rollout time.

Obligatory album:

 

[NathanKell]

@Maxsimal ah, that's very relevant; I just did something similar and found the same issues.

1. "Fill Tanks" doesn't seem to work on RF tanks; is that a known issue?

2. I plan to add a "reset ignitions" right-click-menu option for engines when they are in the VAB, to fix the 'need to replace engine' problem.

3. Yeah, the flipping is a bit annoying. :]

 

I need to check what the inventory effect is; I think I nerfed it at one point but that's because it should be very low for certain parts (capsules, say, or really anything short of a spaceplane that survived a reentry). @magico13 what ever happened to the 'modifiers per part' idea from earlier? That would be a perfect use case, we'd lower the inventory effect of some but not all parts. Indeed, I foresee four modifiers:

* Inventory effect modifier.
* BP modifier when building.
* BP modifier when rolling out.
* Launch cost modifier (for the rollout costs).
(maybe: recovery time modifier?)
 

For example, solids would have a low launch cost and rollout time cost modifier, and a nominal inventory effect modifier, but a slightly >1 building modifier. Capsules would basically have very high modifieres everywhere except Inventory (there very, very low, possibly zero).

[hab136]

On 3/18/2016 at 4:03 PM, magico13 said:

Correct. Alt on Windows, right-shift on Linux, and something else on mac. I've never played KSP on a mac but I'm assuming it's still alt.

Whichever key you use to physics warp and transfer fuel.

It's alternately labeled as "Alt", "Option", and a squiggly symbol, depending on what year the keyboard was made.

 

 

 

[NathanKell]

@magico13 in addition to the above, one other 'nice to have' bool: disallow rolling out to a pad while the pad is being reconditioned. Right now you can combine them, which kinda defeats the purpose IMO.

 

And, uh, because I'm bad at this I have even MOAR 'nice-to-haves': the ability to set whether the KAC-created alarm has kill-warp enabled or silently ends, and the setting of a KAC alarm for tech completion (and facility completion) in addition to just vessels.

[magico13]

18 hours ago, regex said:

I have an issue with the reconditioning time being the same as the rollout time.

Glad it's mostly working right! I did forget to mention that rollout and reconditioning use the same formula (they're two sides of the same coin actually. That's what the recon/rollout split is about with the Default preset). The [RE] variable is 1 if it's processing reconditioning or 0 if it's processing rollout/rollback. You can have just reconditioning by adding "*[RE]" or just rollout by adding "*(1-[RE])". You could hide two formulas in one with "((formula for recon)*[RE]) + ((formula for rollout)*(1-[RE]))"

16 hours ago, NathanKell said:

@Maxsimal ah, that's very relevant; I just did something similar and found the same issues.

1. "Fill Tanks" doesn't seem to work on RF tanks; is that a known issue?

2. I plan to add a "reset ignitions" right-click-menu option for engines when they are in the VAB, to fix the 'need to replace engine' problem.

3. Yeah, the flipping is a bit annoying. :]

 

I need to check what the inventory effect is; I think I nerfed it at one point but that's because it should be very low for certain parts (capsules, say, or really anything short of a spaceplane that survived a reentry). @magico13 what ever happened to the 'modifiers per part' idea from earlier? That would be a perfect use case, we'd lower the inventory effect of some but not all parts. Indeed, I foresee four modifiers:

* Inventory effect modifier.
* BP modifier when building.
* BP modifier when rolling out.
* Launch cost modifier (for the rollout costs).
(maybe: recovery time modifier?)
 

For example, solids would have a low launch cost and rollout time cost modifier, and a nominal inventory effect modifier, but a slightly >1 building modifier. Capsules would basically have very high modifieres everywhere except Inventory (there very, very low, possibly zero).

1. Yes. I tried to fix it once but hadn't tested it, turns out it didn't work. Just haven't had it as a priority item, but the editing process needs cleaned up so I'll try to take care if it and 3. at the same time.

Part/module specific modifiers are planned, I just haven't gotten a chance to add them in yet.

1 hour ago, NathanKell said:

@magico13 in addition to the above, one other 'nice to have' bool: disallow rolling out to a pad while the pad is being reconditioned. Right now you can combine them, which kinda defeats the purpose IMO.

 

And, uh, because I'm bad at this I have even MOAR 'nice-to-haves': the ability to set whether the KAC-created alarm has kill-warp enabled or silently ends, and the setting of a KAC alarm for tech completion (and facility completion) in addition to just vessels.

I plan on totally overhauling the KAC alarms so you can choose what autogenerates alarms and whether it stops warp or gives a message or whatnot. I personally turn all the alarms off because they're more of a nuisance for me at the moment.

You can rollout but not launch when there's reconditioning. I can certainly add an option for not even allowing rollout. I imagine rollout also encompasses all of the final checks and such that could happen prior to the pad being fully ready, though it doesn't make sense for the rocket to be ready to launch with the pad still being fixed up. When I get back to modding I'll try to remember to add that in.

[regex]

1 hour ago, magico13 said:

Glad it's mostly working right! I did forget to mention that rollout and reconditioning use the same formula (they're two sides of the same coin actually. That's what the recon/rollout split is about with the Default preset). The [RE] variable is 1 if it's processing reconditioning or 0 if it's processing rollout/rollback. You can have just reconditioning by adding "*[RE]" or just rollout by adding "*(1-[RE])". You could hide two formulas in one with "((formula for recon)*[RE]) + ((formula for rollout)*(1-[RE]))"

That's what I needed to see.  I thought the split was basically the percentage that was used for rollout with the rest being reconditioning.

[magico13]

1 hour ago, regex said:

That's what I needed to see.  I thought the split was basically the percentage that was used for rollout with the rest being reconditioning.

In the default Preset it acts that way. The split is passed as another variable, [\S], which is used in the formula as "*abs([RE]-[\S])", which splits it as you'd expect. (backslashes are just to trick the forum into not doing a strikethrough, since a tiny code block seems unnecessary).

Edited March 24, 2016 by magico13

[Maxsimal]

On 3/19/2016 at 6:49 PM, magico13 said:

I mean, that's the point of the part inventory. Without the part inventory sure there's no midpoint, but the part inventory is the midpoint. I don't recall how much RP-0 nerfs the part inventory, but in "stock" KCT using the inventory cuts build times to about 1/10 of a new build, which is a hell of a lot better than if there were no inventory. For vessels that need a very quick turnaround (refuel and refly) then the KCT recover is usually faster than using the inventory, but I still recommend using the inventory when you can because it's less prone to bugs.

You can use the KCT recover and reattach parts through the edit function, in which case I highly recommend using subassemblies and simplifying the construction as much as possible. If the "progress" ever drops to 0 though then it isn't any faster than normal recover + rebuild. You just have to be ok with the tedium involved. The bugs regarding crashes are a fair complaint, however, and the whole process could be cleaned up a bit.

Hrmm - yes the part inventory helps, that's a good point!  I didn't think about that.  But I think the construction lead-time in RP0 drowns out the value of the part inventory somewhat, since my game is pretty early, and most of my build time is down to this lead-in, so the time saving of recovery is dramatic, even if I have to edit some cheap boosters back on. A lot of the issues are down to my own inexperience with FAR, I tend to have to do a lot of simulation tests even with rebuilds to get my space-plane launches not to be too unstable.