Compatibility Popup Blocker

[Apollo13]

Khatharr created a mod. If users choose to use it (as they have the same choice with any mod), then fine. If users do not wish to use it, they won't. It's their choice. I'm surprised, and a bit disappointed, in the vitriol of this thread. I believe the KSP modding community to be one of the most open and helpful that I've found. Squad's support of modders is second to none. Yet, here we are.

I understand the concern that the above modders expressed that they may be flooded with messages from users about their mods breaking without warning (because Khatharr's mod is installed). A simple solution is to respond to them (and put it in the OP of your own thread), "If you have Khatharr's mod installed", remove it and restart KSP. If the problem persists, then contact me." Will 99% of the players see the message in the thread's OP. Probably not. But, to sabatage a player as Ippo suggests in his post #18:

Gues what mod put a part module on *every* part in the game, and is considering making them explode if this plugin is found.

THAT"S JUST WRONG. You're punishing the player because of a mod you disagree with.

Let the players play the game the way players choose to. As for me, I won't use this mod because i want to know about incompatibility issues.

[FiiZzioN]

This mod... wow. I feel for any mod maker here, while I don't make mods here, I am in the modding business elsewhere. If this happened there, I be furious as there are quite a lot of stupid people that will not remember to turn the thing off. Seriously, any developer of anything that gets used by others knows how many utterly DENSE people can be.

Also, why in the world is this even needed!?! It's one freaking button during loading. If you're like me, you have a boat load of mods that takes 2 - 4 minutes to load the game, in which time you can press that ONE button. Seriously, how lazy can you be? You take the time to make this mod, yet you can't even click the mouse once during loading or the title screen?

My mind is blown...

A simple solution is to respond to them (and put it in the OP of your own thread), "If you have Khatharr's mod installed", remove it and restart KSP. If the problem persists, then contact me." Will 99% of the players see the message in the thread's OP..

If you develop anything, you know that maybe 35% or 40% actually read the readme's or the entire thread, and that's being generous. And when someone has a bug, they don't read the thread, they just post their problem. When that happens, the developer has to spend time saying "Please read the bug report section in the OP" over, and over, and over, and over again to each post. It'll never stop. People are stupid, there's no other way to put it. You are giving people WAY too much credit.

Edited October 26, 2014 by FiiZzioN

[RoverDude]

Khatharr created a mod. If users choose to use it (as they have the same choice with any mod), then fine. If users do not wish to use it, they won't. It's their choice. I'm surprised, and a bit disappointed, in the vitriol of this thread. I believe the KSP modding community to be one of the most open and helpful that I've found. Squad's support of modders is second to none. Yet, here we are.

I understand the concern that the above modders expressed that they may be flooded with messages from users about their mods breaking without warning (because Khatharr's mod is installed). A simple solution is to respond to them (and put it in the OP of your own thread), "If you have Khatharr's mod installed", remove it and restart KSP. If the problem persists, then contact me." Will 99% of the players see the message in the thread's OP. Probably not. But, to sabatage a player as Ippo suggests in his post #18:

THAT"S JUST WRONG. You're punishing the player because of a mod you disagree with.

Let the players play the game the way players choose to. As for me, I won't use this mod because i want to know about incompatibility issues.

Here's the rub. His mod actively overrides behavior of other mods - behavior put in by mod authors specifically to warn of compatibility issues in support of their users. That's the issue. That's toxic. As an earlier poster put it, this is not a mod, this is sabotage. Calling this a 'mod' gives it a bit too much credit. Fortunately, I expect this will soon be buried in the rubbish heap of bad ideas.

[Ippo]

But, to sabatage a player as Ippo suggests in his post #18:

THAT"S JUST WRONG. You're punishing the player because of a mod you disagree with.

Yes it is.

No, I don't really care.

I haven't taken a final decision on that matter: if this mod will see any significant adoption, I will *surely* move the compatibility checker somewhere where he can't touch it, which will result in more annoyance for the players. Full-blown sabotage will be a last-resort option, and also a very entertaining idea.

Yes, I said it.

[Malah]

Khatharr created a mod. If users choose to use it (as they have the same choice with any mod), then fine. If users do not wish to use it, they won't. It's their choice. I'm surprised, and a bit disappointed, in the vitriol of this thread. I believe the KSP modding community to be one of the most open and helpful that I've found. Squad's support of modders is second to none. Yet, here we are.

I understand the concern that the above modders expressed that they may be flooded with messages from users about their mods breaking without warning (because Khatharr's mod is installed). A simple solution is to respond to them (and put it in the OP of your own thread), "If you have Khatharr's mod installed", remove it and restart KSP. If the problem persists, then contact me." Will 99% of the players see the message in the thread's OP. Probably not. But, to sabatage a player as Ippo suggests in his post #18:

THAT"S JUST WRONG. You're punishing the player because of a mod you disagree with.

Let the players play the game the way players choose to. As for me, I won't use this mod because i want to know about incompatibility issues.

I think the exact same things.

Yes it is.

No, I don't really care.

I haven't taken a final decision on that matter: if this mod will see any significant adoption, I will *surely* move the compatibility checker somewhere where he can't touch it, which will result in more annoyance for the players. Full-blown sabotage will be a last-resort option, and also a very entertaining idea.

Yes, I said it.

I don't think that a mod like this will have a significant adoption, only some people who don't want to have a popup would use it.

If you prefer a fork rather than a mod like this ... that's your choice but in the open source community, they like forks, they use forks for anything (for the best and for the worst) and more you will add DRM more you will have a chance to have a fork of your mods ... And yes, for me, a popup is like a DRM

[technicalfool]

And here's your answer as to whether the moderators are watching or not.

Right now, Katharr's mod is not breaking any forum rules. Whether you agree or disagree with it, getting angry and throwing increasingly heated posts into the forums is just going to end up with those posts getting deleted. It hasn't reached that point yet, and I'm hoping it won't. However, I have been asked to post a chill pill into this thread, so this is exactly what I'm doing.

No seriously, do take one. Or both.

[Ippo]

And yes, for me, a popup is like a DRM

"Hey, please keep in mind that your platform is unsupported, my mod might crash and burn at any second: you should really be careful!"

This is not the same thing as DRM: I'm not stopping you from using it, I'm just trying to remind you that there may be problems, and you should watch out.

Edited October 23, 2014 by Ippo
Let's not lock the thread...

[hab136]

take responsibility for your own actions like a grown-up.

Some of the players quite literally are children. A 14-year-old is smart enough to play KSP and install mods, but may not be emotionally mature enough to "take responsibility for [his] own actions".

(For that matter, some 30-year-olds aren't that mature either)

These people are calling YOU stupid!

Go read through MechJeb's thread and count how many variations of "I can't figure out how to put the folder in GameData, but I'm angry and it's your fault!" you can find.

There's plenty of smart people. There's also plenty of not-so-smart people. Both kinds (and a lot of average people too) play KSP and install mods.

taking back your freedom

You're free to make whatever mod you want, but your actions have consequences. For the minor benefit of avoiding a once-per-launch popup window, you're going to cause more support work for dozens of other people. How is that in any way a good tradeoff for the world?

It just seems like you're releasing this mod for ideological reasons, rather than any practical benefit to yourself or other players, and without regard for the consequences to the KSP community as a whole.

[emleri]

@Kartharr:

Users don't own the mods. What you're doing is pretty much equal to being angry and attacking a gift-giver because the gift you got isn't exactly what you wanted.

Someone (the modder) lets you to use something of his (the mod) free of charge, just with certain simple conditions. When you disagree those conditions, you don't just say: "oh well, if I can't agree with the conditions, then I can't use the mod" as you should, but go on to sabotage and harass the modder.

Can't you see how totally wrong that is? You have absolutely no privilege to the mods and the modders are not required to please you.

[Alshain]

Gues what mod put a part module on *every* part in the game, and is considering making them explode if this plugin is found.

I have no opinion on this argument, but what your suggesting here would be malicious and viral in nature and I'd bet it would earn your mod a takedown from Squad, so please don't do this.

[sarbian]

Great, an other freedom fighter who comes to free the users from the modders oppression. I actually expected to see a #GG tag near the end of your post.

Your time may be better used writing actual mods instead of doing all you can to make actual modders want to stop modding...

Ippo: don't waste your time coding that. They dontt deserve it.

Dears mods, feel free to delete my post and ban me. I'm tired of this community.

[smart013]

Dears mods, feel free to delete my post and ban me. I'm tired of this community.

This is nothing compared to what this community can become if this toxic "Read the posts below and see the tears flow!" mentality gets a firm footing here. So dont give up the fight, mighty sarbian

[ferram4]

@Khatharr: Three big problems with your code:

1) There is no way to not silence the message on repeats. While I understand that this is the behavior you want, it isn't useful to users that want or expect to be reminded.

2) Without providing a license for the code, it is licensed ARR, and we can't use it. Why haven't you licensed it?

3) It is not a functional Compatibility Checker version; as I mentioned, the proper thing for you to do is to release the full version as a fork of CC. Why have you not done this?

At this point, you've basically declared that we use your code (and suffer forum rule violations and take down our mods because of violating the license) or we deal with this interference plugin.

[Eleven]

I looked for ways to circumvent the CC popup only when I knew the mod worked correctly, but was somehow still passing the incompatibility message to me. Luckily things like that never last for long, modders here are very quick to fix issues like that. Two in particular were passing the popup and both mod threads were very active with people asking about and authors fixing it in real time. I love that.

But. This thread has taught me a few things and none of them are good. That makes me sad.

[Woodstar]

WOW how hard is it to click "OK" while the game loads? Don't tell me it loads instantly with all the mods either! The lazy is strong with this one!

[Thourion]

WOW how hard is it to click "OK" while the game loads? Don't tell me it loads instantly with all the mods either! The lazy is strong with this one!

Wow you really had to go there huh? Then how about:

WOW how hard is it to not have to click "OK" just because somone wants to? Hmm what do you know, its not that hard also.

[tedach]

When I first began playing KSP, I enjoyed the experience enough to follow development more closely. And then I found the community-made mods.

Now I'm an addict. I honestly don't think I would enjoy playing KSP without the multitude of mods I've come to *rely* on for enjoyment. That may be a failure on my end, but the mods are the reason I play this game.

With that being said, folks should understand that the insanely dedicated modders produce all of this incredible content as a donation to our collective enjoyment. They aren't paid or promoted for their work, yet still support their endeavors on the forums as a kindness to us all. In my mind, I - and all users - should do everything in our power to help further the entire community by working together to fix problems, rather than undermine or derail code that takes no small amount of time to produce. Because mod integration isn't as fully fleshed out as most of us would like, things like the CC checker work to HELP EVERYONE identify issues before more effort is made to fix a very basic mistake. In my mind, I can't find a way to dislike the practice.

With that being said, perhaps we can all think of a way to implement an auto-updater that pulls most recent mod versions from a central location? That would at least ensure that users are working with the latest code, in addition to automating folder/file distribution. I've seen a few versions that attempt this, but I think they only tie into the Curse site. I suppose I'm suggesting a Steam Workshop-type system.

What are the requirements for deploying such a system? What sort of back-end would the community need to host such a plethora of mods? I'd be willing to fund the hardware side of this, as I can barely code a "hello world", but I want to help. We have a chance to work together to make thing better for everyone, it's worth a try!

(and if I'm totally naive about the situation, my apologies, but tell me why!)

[Woodstar]

Wow you really had to go there huh? Then how about:

WOW how hard is it to not have to click "OK" just because somone wants to? Hmm what do you know, its not that hard also.

Look I'm not going to argue over pettiness, It comes down to laziness, never see me in this thread again.

[RoverDude]

Wow you really had to go there huh? Then how about:

WOW how hard is it to not have to click "OK" just because somone wants to? Hmm what do you know, its not that hard also.

The rub is that someone is having you click 'Ok' because they are advising you that stuff may in fact break. It's there for a reason. And intentionally distributing code for the sole purpose of circumventing this is sabotage, not help. The product offered in this thread in it's current form offers no value, and I expect before the dust settles, will see more than one modder just say 'screw it' and leave for greener pastures. So yeah, your net loss for not having to click 'Ok' may be that we suddenly have less mods due to the "Read the posts below and see the tears flow!" attitude of the OP.

- - - Updated - - -

@tedach Check out the CKAN project and KSP-AVC. Both are good products headed in the right direction IMO.

Edited October 23, 2014 by RoverDude

[Thourion]

Look I'm not going to argue over pettiness, It comes down to laziness, never see me in this thread again.

Im not gonna argue over anything tbh, but you have to understand that what you see as "laziness" i see as "freedom of choice". Someone else could see it as "lets do the boogy dance".

@tedach Mod sites, deposits and all those stuff, doesnt help users that dont or cant help themselves. If you just go to a repo and download 10 mods because you liked the screenshots, a popup warning really wont do you any good. Thats just my oppinion.

Auto-updaters while could be usefull, they come with their own problems. Do note though that we got things like AVC plugin, who is a nice method, again imo, to have things fresh and under control.

EDIT:

@Roverdude: Im sorry Rover, but you are missing the point. Its gonna be the exact same thing no matter what. People that dont read threads, that dont search for themselves, are not gonna change or stop asking the same questions in your threads, no matter how many warnings popups and other contraptions you put them through.

Edited October 23, 2014 by Thourion

[Alshain]

At the risk of becoming involved in this. What I'm hearing is that the mod developers here believe it is OK for them to mod Kerbal Space Program to work they way they want, but it is not OK for someone else to mod their mod to make it work the way that person wants. It just seems so hypocritical, you are making a mod but you are saying your the only one allowed to do that.

I don't plan on using this mod because I like the warnings, but I can't see how you think it's ok for you to change Squads game on your own computer and not ok for someone else to change your changes on theirs.

[BudgetHedgehog]

I don't think the modders want to stop people modding their mod (hell, most recommend that to remove the CC check, recompile it yourself without it), just that having this plugin installed is going to mean a lot more work for them and defeats the point of having CC in the first place.

For the record, I think a continual reminder is better for me - I know that if I turned it off, I'd eventually forget the reason and keep thinking everything's fine when it's not.

[RoverDude]

EDIT:

@Roverdude: Im sorry Rover, but you are missing the point. Its gonna be the exact same thing no matter what. People that dont read threads, that dont search for themselves, are not gonna change or stop asking the same questions in your threads, no matter how many warnings popups and other contraptions you put them through.

The problem though now becomes a support one, because I expect a certain behavior. Just like when I am supporting my mods only to find that someone dug in and changed things. Also this does it kinda globally.... so suddenly said user has no idea that stuff is actually broken, what is broken, etc. and they come to our support threads. This bit of code has negative value to the community (even without the OP's position that he will mutate it, etc.).

The only silver lining is that this will pretty much end up on the rubbish heap within a week or two. Of course by then you're going to have a few less modders, or at least a few less active ones, because of the unnecessary toxicity to the community.

@Alshain - there's a pretty big difference between delivering stand alone packages that extend the game functionality, and delivering a piece of code who's sole purpose is to sabotage other mods. It offers zero value other than causing grief to modders. I think it's a reasonable request on the part of us providing content that if you install our stuff, please don't go about actively breaking it or making our lives harder, unless you're fully prepared to live without it, or rebuild it yourself when we leave (looking at Sarbian's post above). This is toxicity this community does not need.

Edited October 23, 2014 by RoverDude

[shand]

I always find it a shame when it comes down to "us vs them" with "community vs modders"... for starters modders are PART of the community.

I've never had anything but positive interactions with modders (you are all wonderful!), and i can completely understand the need for CC - many mods use different systems that notify an update is avalible on startup, which i find slightly more useful personally. (instead of "this version might not work" it acts more as a "this other version will probably work better"). I would honestly prefer CC to give a "this mod can be updated to a newer version" notice... yes MORE popup, not less... but this isnt the place for that.

Personally i dont see the point of this "mod", but i dont like the impact it is having on the modders. I would fully support refusal to provide support if the latest version isn't being used... but that said, i never "expect" support. i hope for it, but if the mod doesnt work and nobody can help me i'll pull a sad face and get rid of it. this isnt the base game afterall. mods are gifts.

Think of this post as a big (poorly articulated) cuddle to all you fabulous modders for doing your job so well - i expect nothing of you but i appreciate everything you do.

[Alshain]

@Alshain - there's a pretty big difference between delivering stand alone packages that extend the game functionality, and delivering a piece of code who's sole purpose is to sabotage other mods. It offers zero value other than causing grief to modders. I think it's a reasonable request on the part of us providing content that if you install our stuff, please don't go about actively breaking it or making our lives harder, unless you're fully prepared to live without it, or rebuild it yourself when we leave (looking at Sarbian's post above). This is toxicity this community does not need.

One man's garbage is another mans treasure. By that same token what one person finds valuable is zero value to another. I see no evidence of "sabotage" here, merely someone that wants to stop a certain behavior and share that with others that may value the same type of change, which is what many mods do to KSP.

I don't agree with his attitude by any means, the original post is very toxic and has no reason to be. However, if I discount the attitude, all I see is someone attempting to make his life easier, not your life harder. All of that is based on conjecture anyway, I doubt there is any concrete evidence that CC has lightened the support load or not having it really makes your life harder.