[1.9-1.10] Throttle Controlled Avionics

[Bit Fiddler]

ok making a "shuttle" launch system   based on the Real World Shuttle.  I assume T-SAS will balance all the liquid engines to keep the COT in line with the COM.  but I have a few questions. 

what does limiting my liquid engines output do to my fuel efficiency?  does the ISP remain the same and I just burn less fuel as I am making less thrust?

secondly if the only engine active is the main engine under the external fuel tank, will T-SAS balance the thrust of this engine to provide stable flight with the control surfaces on the shuttle?  as in limit the thrust to a value that the control surfaces can counteract.

 

 

and lastly there is a typo/grammar error in the "AutoStage" tool tip 'falmouted" should be "has flamed out"

[kcs123]

11 hours ago, Bit Fiddler said:

what does limiting my liquid engines output do to my fuel efficiency?  does the ISP remain the same and I just burn less fuel as I am making less thrust?

Throttle and limithing thrust on game engine does not any influence regarding ISP. ISP is function of atmosphere preassure and in vacuum is constant. It depends on engine nozzle shape, how it can diirect exehaust gases in most efficient way out of craft, so most oposite forces can push craft in forward direction.

Only exception is jet engines and rapier. ISP for those also vary with craft speed. (not to be misinterpreted as throttle). I'm not exact sure for jet behaviour in stock game vs AJE mod installed. Stock game have changed a lot regarding engine behaviour, so I'm not sure about current status of it.

However, regarding rocket engines, what is said above is still valid.

[Bit Fiddler]

ok so again... does limiting the thrust burn less fuel or just waste it?  If ISP remains constant, and thrust is reduced, it would seem to be that fuel burn is also reduced.  but unless I am misreading the data my engine seems to just waste the fuel when it is under thrust limit.  as in it burns the same amount of fuel per second but the thrust is cut, so the fuel is wasted.  this seems like a bad game mechanic, but so far it seems this is true.

[allista]

6 minutes ago, Bit Fiddler said:

ok so again... does limiting the thrust burn less fuel or just waste it?  If ISP remains constant, and thrust is reduced, it would seem to be that fuel burn is also reduced.  but unless I am misreading the data my engine seems to just waste the fuel when it is under thrust limit.  as in it burns the same amount of fuel per second but the thrust is cut, so the fuel is wasted.  this seems like a bad game mechanic, but so far it seems this is true.

Nah, @kcs123 is right. Thrust limit works exactly like the main throttle: it regulates the amount of fuel that the engine requests from the ship; so less throttle/limit means less fuel is consumed. Just like this (simplified, but true):

requestedMassFlow = maxMassFlow*mainThrottle/100*thrustLimit/100 * modifier(pressure, speed)

resultingThrust = requestedMassFlow * Isp(pressure, speed)

This is common for rockets and jets (and all the stock engines). Depending on part.cfg, though, the Isp of a rocket engine usually does not change with speed and mass-flow modifier is constant. And jets add throttle hysteresis.

[Bit Fiddler]

hmm must be some odd mod conflict or what ever.  as I tested again and when thrust limit is set to less than 100%, the engine is still burning fuel at the same rate.

 

will have to start from a clean install and see if I can figure out what is causing this.

[AwkwardNoah]

On 11/22/2016 at 4:26 AM, PmThay said:

i had the same problem and found (in my case) that this mod: 

conflicts with TAC. I'll post a log file later.

 

Can anyone give me a list of good mods that all work well together and are just good for VTOL related stuff

Really trying to fix up my mod list to something better then, well LIGHTS EVERYWHERE

[IraqiWalker]

3 hours ago, AwkwardNoah said:

Can anyone give me a list of good mods that all work well together and are just good for VTOL related stuff

Really trying to fix up my mod list to something better then, well LIGHTS EVERYWHERE

I would like to second this motion.

[Bit Fiddler]

1)   all of the Mk2 stuff you can find.  Porkjet, Quiztech, Mk2 expansion etc.  they all have very good parts for making VTOL.  also the USI packs have some very good VTOL parts. if I recall, the exact packs are exploration, and the Freight transport packs.  OPT Space plane pack has good parts for larger craft.

2)   also, I use a lot of wings and such from the B9 procedural wing pack.  as you can fine tune the wing and control surfaces to your exact needs.

3)   and finally, firespitter, KAX, SXT, Airplanes plus, etc.  these all have good general aircraft parts even a few specific to VTOL. basically any pack I can find that is "aircraft specific" I will install as they all have little gems in them you may otherwise miss.

 

I just accidentally wiped my career game and lost all my VTOL example craft but I can rebuild some of them to show off some of the more interesting parts I have used.

Edited December 2, 2016 by Bit Fiddler

[jrodriguez]

Hi @allista,

I just opened a new issue on github. Quoting me:

 

Quote

 

Hi,

First of all, thanks for this awesome mod.

I have done a fresh install of KSP just to reproduce this issue. Only TCA v3.3.0 from github is installed.

Issue description: When set hover to 2000 m after few seconds, everything goes black.

Steps to reproduce the issue:

1. Clean KSP 1.2.1 installation and TCA v3.3.0
2. Download and launch this simple stock craft modified to be VTOL
   Stearwing A300 VTOL.zip
3. Open TCA UI and set Enable and Hover to 2000m.
4. Stage engines.
5. Enjoy the kraken.

Find the log below:

KSP.zip

Kind Regards,
jrodriguez

 

 

Edited December 5, 2016 by jrodriguez

[jrodriguez]

@allista Also I've question about the Thrust Limiter field. Not sure if it is an issue because it seems to be very obvious and maybe it has been done on purpose.

Every time when I move an engine the Thrust Limiter value is reset to 0.  This is not a big problem, but it is a bit annoying...

[danielboro]

hello

i found this line in my ksp.log

[LOG 13:25:47.147] [ThrottleControlledAvionics: 13:25:47.145] TCAScenario: SaveConfigs: vessel a5fd0a9f-9e3a-492a-8c49-b8a4af24e40f is not present in the game. Removing orphan configuration.

as i go down my 345M log the list gets bigger

vessel a5fd... has the biggest number of times in the log  whit 47 times

[LOG 02:15:32.746] [ThrottleControlledAvionics: 02:15:32.746] TCAScenario: SaveConfigs: vessel 827cee36-23d3-4c39-b8f7-109b5fb041ba is not present in the game. Removing orphan configuration.
[LOG 02:15:32.747] [ThrottleControlledAvionics: 02:15:32.747] TCAScenario: SaveConfigs: vessel 8973be25-09a4-48d8-8ecd-ae25e802e4f8 is not present in the game. Removing orphan configuration.
[LOG 02:15:32.766] [ThrottleControlledAvionics: 02:15:32.766] TCAScenario: SaveConfigs: vessel a5fd0a9f-9e3a-492a-8c49-b8a4af24e40f is not present in the game. Removing orphan configuration.
[LOG 02:15:32.779] [ThrottleControlledAvionics: 02:15:32.779] TCAScenario: SaveConfigs: vessel b9ccdc16-f46d-4b94-9a8c-22de6d5388be is not present in the game. Removing orphan configuration.
[LOG 02:15:32.800] [ThrottleControlledAvionics: 02:15:32.800] TCAScenario: SaveConfigs: vessel 1ddeeb8c-60ce-4af8-8429-4b68162cde9f is not present in the game. Removing orphan configuration.
[LOG 02:15:32.805] [ThrottleControlledAvionics: 02:15:32.805] TCAScenario: SaveConfigs: vessel 27c7792b-06c8-4e60-9a2e-489d63b90704 is not present in the game. Removing orphan configuration.
[LOG 02:15:32.811] [ThrottleControlledAvionics: 02:15:32.811] TCAScenario: SaveConfigs: vessel 3d0a7794-6a56-48de-8ffe-89d24613f089 is not present in the game. Removing orphan configuration.
[LOG 02:15:32.822] [ThrottleControlledAvionics: 02:15:32.822] TCAScenario: SaveConfigs: vessel 6fd0ca0c-ae2b-4869-b116-4e2bc5b7315b is not present in the game. Removing orphan configuration.

 

wat das this mean?

 

Edited December 6, 2016 by danielboro

[gilflo]

Question about Kimball:

I noticed that on my asparagus launcher, all kimball limits on all my engines are set to 0. with engine in Thrust mode or in Thrust and maneuver mode, Gimball is always to 0.

Is it a common use?

It looks like TCA use differential Throttle instead of Gimball.........

[MaxxQ]

2 hours ago, gilflo said:

Question about Kimball:

I noticed that on my asparagus launcher, all kimball limits on all my engines are set to 0. with engine in Thrust mode or in Thrust and maneuver mode, Gimball is always to 0.

Is it a common use?

It looks like TCA use differential Throttle instead of Gimball.........

Yup, that's exactly what TCA does.  Hence the name: THROTTLE CONTROLLED Avionics.

[gilflo]

6 hours ago, MaxxQ said:

Yup, that's exactly what TCA does.  Hence the name: THROTTLE CONTROLLED Avionics.

Yes I understand that, but it also uses SAS and RCS that are not Throttled and that allow to control attitude. So why not use Gimball when it exists to handle trajectory instead of spoiling RCS and handling worse that Mechjeb do using simply kimball and SAS?

That's what happened on my well balanced asparagus rocket....With Gimball, and SAS mechjeb handle trajectory, with SAS, Throttle and RCS TCA hardly do it and failed....

Is it a big deal to take Gimball in account?

Edited December 10, 2016 by gilflo

[Boris-Barboris]

1 hour ago, gilflo said:

Is it a big deal to take Gimball in account?

Yes.

[ss8913]

I'm getting a complete.. well... I hate to use the phrase 'ape excrements' on these forums, and the forums won't let me use the original term, but that's pretty much what KSP is doing with TCA... on approach, trying to enter a VTOL landing state.. everything looks good.. then suddenly the entire world disappears, I see stars, and the game destabilizes, textures don't work, have to quit.  Log is *chock full* of NRE from TCA.  Here's the log; it's a bit big, but go to the end and the NREs are unmistakable.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/xm07an4ctxdblj0/KSP-TCA-NRE.log?dl=0

Edited December 15, 2016 by ss8913

[jrodriguez]

15 minutes ago, ss8913 said:

I'm getting a complete.. well... I hate to use the phrase 'ape excrements' on these forums, and the forums won't let me use the original term, but that's pretty much what KSP is doing with TCA... on approach, trying to enter a VTOL landing state.. everything looks good.. then suddenly the entire world disappears, I see stars, and the game destabilizes, textures don't work, have to quit.  Log is *chock full* of NRE from TCA.  Here's the log; it's a bit big, but go to the end and the NREs are unmistakable.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/xm07an4ctxdblj0/KSP-TCA-NRE.log?dl=0

A similar issue has been already reported, I suggest to take a look the issues section from the github repo in order to avoid duplicates and to learn how a proper bug report is written. 

[ss8913]

1 hour ago, jrodriguez said:

A similar issue has been already reported, I suggest to take a look the issues section from the github repo in order to avoid duplicates and to learn how a proper bug report is written. 

and we could have all done without the last subordinate clause in your post.

Glad the issue is known.  I will go check the github issues section.

[DoctorDavinci]

32 minutes ago, ss8913 said:

and we could have all done without the last subordinate clause in your post.

Glad the issue is known.  I will go check the github issues section.

And we all could learn about writing proper bug reports by taking his advice

If someone offers a suggestion, it is just that, a suggestion ... you don't have to take it

And by the way, his suggestion does have merrit

[SpaceBadger007]

Well... I was testing out this new tilt wing vtol, flying around and what-not, then I turned on TCA and clicked hover, it started working, then I managed to pull a danny2462...

http://imgur.com/a/wrLR0

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOGS: https://www.dropbox.com/home

For those who dont know what I mean by saying I pulled a danny2462, here's what I mean! 

But instead of using a "physics bomb" I used TCA, and a seriously modded install, however this has only happened with TCA so this is why I'm posting here! 

 

[ss8913]

This above is the issue that a few of us have reported.. it's in the github issues list already.  I'm trying to get Davon TCA working as a workaround until this updates, and it's.. well it kinda works, but it's a lot more simple than this mod and doesn't have a lot of the advanced features.  Seems to work in basic form, if you combine it with Diazo's vertical velocity controller.

[ISE]

Ya I too had the black kraken show up almost every time I used the latest build. 

[Sharpy]

How can I prevent TCA from setting thrust limiter on my engines in VAB?

I deploy a new craft. I don't plan to use TCA while flying it. I launch, stage the first boosters and... my craft starts falling. Rightclick main engine: Thrust limiter set to 60-something. Arrrgh!

TCA was off the whole time, and I didn't touch it while building the craft. I didn't touch the thrust limiter either. It's just that when I add some engines, it just loves to tweak the thrust limiter, sometimes to 90%, sometimes way down, often way to zero...

Edited December 18, 2016 by Sharpy

[Sharpy]

On 16.12.2016 at 3:40 AM, SpaceBadger007 said:

Well... I was testing out this new tilt wing vtol,[...]

For those who dont know what I mean by saying I pulled a danny2462[...]

But instead of using a "physics bomb" I used TCA, and a seriously modded install, however this has only happened with TCA so this is why I'm posting here! 

 

Confirming. One semi-reliable way to reproduce:

1. make a mini craft using two smallest electric turbofans from USI-FTT. If needed, I'll provide a file.

2. fly it to Runway Island and fly into vicinity of the tower (somewhere above the runway in front of it)

3. Set TCA to Hover, Follow Terrain and Stop. Set altitude to such that you're <10m above the roof of the control tower

4. fly over the tower.

The moment the craft flies over the roof the bug is triggered. Everything goes dark, map is empty space, using ][ I can switch between debris and kerbals in the area and that returns vision - sky still blue but no Sun, cel-shaded kerbals, many textures missing (transparent; e.g. the control tower). Revert makes things worse.

3

[ISE]

On December 16, 2016 at 5:04 PM, ss8913 said:

This above is the issue that a few of us have reported.. it's in the github issues list already.  I'm trying to get Davon TCA working as a workaround until this updates, and it's.. well it kinda works, but it's a lot more simple than this mod and doesn't have a lot of the advanced features.  Seems to work in basic form, if you combine it with Diazo's vertical velocity controller.

I tried doing that, but I gave up because I'm so reliant in TCA, without TCA I 'don't play. lol