[1.2] OSE Workshop - KIS Addon: (v1.1.0 - 2016.11.03)

[Qigon]

I remodelled the Converter to give it's gears distinctive wear and scratches.

I'm willing to know what you guys think of this change? Too much fine detail?

Here are the assets to replace:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/4bb6xfdpq863qtd/OSE_Converter.rar?dl=0

http://i.imgur.com/H9jkCe0.png

Yeeey scratches! I love your screenshot, gotta try those textures soon!

[ObiVanDamme]

Career mode adjustments are on the way. I finally managed to make the part list to only show parts you have unlocked. I will adjust the part costs before the next release and introduce the new resource in another version. This should remove all exploits from science mode and make career mode a lot more realistic. I also would like to let you know, that RoverDude is working on a MKS integration for the Workshop with 3D printers in some of the MKS modules, MaterialKits in the switchable Kontainers and a MaterialKit processing using MKS resources (metal, chemical and polymers). Watch the MKS release thread to get when it will be available.

[RoverDude]

Heya, for clarity, I'll be switching from MaterialKits to RocketParts in MKS for consistency. RocketParts in MKS being the combination of Metals, Chemicals, and Polymers (so three refined resources vs. just one refined resource from EL, or one raw resource in the current OSE).

(Summary for folks just because the MKS thread hurtles forward at a very brisk pace)

The MKS fabricator will have a much larger volume (4K) and faster conversion rate, and use RocketParts vs MaterialKits.

The MKS inflatable workshop will have a smaller volume (1K) and work slower, but also use RocketParts vs MaterialKits.

The existing OSE printer will have the same stats but use RocketParts vs MaterialKits.

The existing OSE converter will replace the Ore=>MaterialKits conversion with a Metals+Chemicals+Polymers+SpecialtyParts=>RocketParts conversion (same one that exists on the inflatable workshop, but is inferior to the full size fabricator).

The existing OSE containers will be converted from holding MaterialKits to holding an even mix of SpecializedParts/RocketParts.

[smjjames]

Oh you're integrating the workshop functionality into the fabricator (which makes sense actually)? Cool.

[RoverDude]

Both the fabricator (MK-III) and the Workshop (Mk-V)

[ObiVanDamme]

Heya, for clarity, I'll be switching from MaterialKits to RocketParts in MKS for consistency. RocketParts in MKS being the combination of Metals, Chemicals, and Polymers (so three refined resources vs. just one refined resource from EL, or one raw resource in the current OSE).

(Summary for folks just because the MKS thread hurtles forward at a very brisk pace)

The MKS fabricator will have a much larger volume (4K) and faster conversion rate, and use RocketParts vs MaterialKits.

The MKS inflatable workshop will have a smaller volume (1K) and work slower, but also use RocketParts vs MaterialKits.

The existing OSE printer will have the same stats but use RocketParts vs MaterialKits.

The existing OSE converter will replace the Ore=>MaterialKits conversion with a Metals+Chemicals+Polymers+SpecialtyParts=>RocketParts conversion (same one that exists on the inflatable workshop, but is inferior to the full size fabricator).

The existing OSE containers will be converted from holding MaterialKits to holding an even mix of SpecializedParts/RocketParts.

thank you for clarifying and the integration.

[Enceos]

Amazing news!

[RoverDude]

Yep, well given Taniwha released Recipes for EL, this is going to open the door - i.e. I can break the hard-dependency on RocketParts and we can do multi-resource construction.

I'm curious to see where the EL defaults land. If they land in a place where it requires multiple resources (ideally CRP ones), then I'll stick with RocketParts. If on the otherhand, EL remains a single resource->Rockets path (which is incompatible with how UKS works), then I would have no problem switching to MaterialKits since it solves the exploit issue (or even a combination of resources, based on what Obi wants to do).

Though regardless, for UKS I'd want to disable the Ore->MaterialKits converter for the same reason that I disable the MetallicOre->RocketParts converter (i.e. it simplifies the resource mini-game a bit too much IMO). That I expect would remain as a MM config, unless Obi is open to using multiple CRP resources, etc. - which could also get really interesting of OSE Workshop used a similar recipe system to EL.

In any case, I want to see how all of these play out and get as many folks around the table as possible, since that helps everyone out (especially players).

[ObiVanDamme]

Yep, well given Taniwha released Recipes for EL, this is going to open the door - i.e. I can break the hard-dependency on RocketParts and we can do multi-resource construction.

I'm curious to see where the EL defaults land. If they land in a place where it requires multiple resources (ideally CRP ones), then I'll stick with RocketParts. If on the otherhand, EL remains a single resource->Rockets path (which is incompatible with how UKS works), then I would have no problem switching to MaterialKits since it solves the exploit issue (or even a combination of resources, based on what Obi wants to do).

Though regardless, for UKS I'd want to disable the Ore->MaterialKits converter for the same reason that I disable the MetallicOre->RocketParts converter (i.e. it simplifies the resource mini-game a bit too much IMO). That I expect would remain as a MM config, unless Obi is open to using multiple CRP resources, etc. - which could also get really interesting of OSE Workshop used a similar recipe system to EL.

In any case, I want to see how all of these play out and get as many folks around the table as possible, since that helps everyone out (especially players).

I really like the idea behind CRP, because I saw how well mods integrate into each other if they share the resource system. even before I used regolith for the first time. If possible I will use CRP resources only, but during the time I introduced MaterialKits I was not able to find a suitable combination of resources to solve the current balancing issue I currently have. If this will be possible in the future I will try to go that way

[RoverDude]

Yeah, I think if we play it right we can do some cost leveling that makes sense.

[ObiVanDamme]

Heya, for clarity, I'll be switching from MaterialKits to RocketParts in MKS for consistency. RocketParts in MKS being the combination of Metals, Chemicals, and Polymers (so three refined resources vs. just one refined resource from EL, or one raw resource in the current OSE).

(Summary for folks just because the MKS thread hurtles forward at a very brisk pace)

The MKS fabricator will have a much larger volume (4K) and faster conversion rate, and use RocketParts vs MaterialKits.

The MKS inflatable workshop will have a smaller volume (1K) and work slower, but also use RocketParts vs MaterialKits.

The existing OSE printer will have the same stats but use RocketParts vs MaterialKits.

The existing OSE converter will replace the Ore=>MaterialKits conversion with a Metals+Chemicals+Polymers+SpecialtyParts=>RocketParts conversion (same one that exists on the inflatable workshop, but is inferior to the full size fabricator).

The existing OSE containers will be converted from holding MaterialKits to holding an even mix of SpecializedParts/RocketParts.

Yeah, I think if we play it right we can do some cost leveling that makes sense.

i am looking forward to that

[ObiVanDamme]

OSE Workshop version 0.10.2 has just been released with available parts limitations

- Only parts that are unlocked and purchased will be available for printing

- The tooltip in the Workbench will show you the costs of the part itself and the costs of the resources used in the printing process => I need this for the career mode balancing but thought you might enjoy it as well

[ObiVanDamme]

i did some more thoughtwork on that topic and all that crp and mks integration with an additional resource to balance the costs feels so smooth. when searching for the name of my resource i searcned the internet for 3d printing companies and suppliers and even nasa to find info about what is used to 3d print parts in space. i found a mission manifest on the nasa website that said something about material sample kits that contained several different metals, ceramics and plastic. in mks this could be metal, chemicals and polymers. in the current implementation you add specialized parts to create rocket parts. if we implement it so that metal, chemicals and polymers make material kits and i add specialized parts to that in the 3d printer we will have rocket parts again. not the generic resource used in el, but attachable specific rocket parts :-)

[RoverDude]

If we switch to this I can always adjust my own process flows. I'd like to land in a place where the workflow works the same from OSE or the MKS version of EL (and based on Taniwha's response, if we can get him down the multi-resource path, then we just follow whatever EL does).

[Kowgan]

The new version is working great. In addition to the new feature, I'd like to request the following for the Workbench:

- If the next page is empty, the "next" button does nothing, or disappears. (prevent flipping through empty pages)

- Everytime you switch a category tab (Utilities, Pods, etc.), force the list to go back to page 1. (Sometimes a category has items on page 3, while the other doesn't. Switching categories and finding an empty list can be confusing sometimes)

... If it's not too complicated to implement, of course.

Thank you!

[ObiVanDamme]

The new version is working great. In addition to the new feature, I'd like to request the following for the Workbench:

- If the next page is empty, the "next" button does nothing, or disappears. (prevent flipping through empty pages)

- Everytime you switch a category tab (Utilities, Pods, etc.), force the list to go back to page 1. (Sometimes a category has items on page 3, while the other doesn't. Switching categories and finding an empty list can be confusing sometimes)

... If it's not too complicated to implement, of course.

Thank you!

thank you for pointing that out. i noticed that some time ago but forgot to fix it

- - - Updated - - -

If we switch to this I can always adjust my own process flows. I'd like to land in a place where the workflow works the same from OSE or the MKS version of EL (and based on Taniwha's response, if we can get him down the multi-resource path, then we just follow whatever EL does).

sounds great. i will get the two resources system up and running with material kits and specialized parts and than wait for taniwha's implementation. we can fine tune the process and costs afterwards

[RoverDude]

Perfect. Then I'll tweak mine. Let's see how fast we can rope down Taniwha

[Qigon]

thank you for pointing that out. i noticed that some time ago but forgot to fix it

- - - Updated - - -

sounds great. i will get the two resources system up and running with material kits and specialized parts and than wait for taniwha's implementation. we can fine tune the process and costs afterwards

The only drawback of consuming specialized parts is that the 3d printer will run dry unless it gets periodic shipments from kerbin, since you can't get it any other way. The only way out would be to have an MKIII fabricator and dump the 3d printer, but that's only available for people who install mks.

[Kowgan]

I'm kinda lost with the imminent changes going on, regarding MKS/EL integration.

So, nothing's gonna change for those who use OSE only? Or are we gonna get this new resource as well? And, what is this new resource about, afterall?

-snip-

(i.e. it simplifies the resource mini-game a bit too much IMO). That I expect would remain as a MM config, unless Obi is open to using multiple CRP resources, etc. - which could also get really interesting of OSE Workshop used a similar recipe system to EL.

I personally like the simplicity of OSE. Minimal resource types (Ore -> MaterialKits -> Built part) are way more friendly for me. The complexity of MKS/OKS, for example, spooks me out.

Edited August 20, 2015 by Kowgan

[RoverDude]

This is why we have module manager But would at least be nice to have some basic commonality.

[ObiVanDamme]

It will stay simple for people who only use OSE Workshop and do not run MKS / EL. That is something I had in mind initially, when starting with the mod and that is also the reason why I removed the multiple resource feature I tried out some releases ago. And I promise it will stay that way! If you run OSE Workshop without MKS or EL you will be able to create everything you need in flight, even the second resource. What might change is what resources you need to use (RocketParts, SpecializedParts, MaterialKits or something completly different).

Rover and me try to share the resource system to make the integration easier. When you install MKS together with OSE Workshop you will still use the same resources, but the converter recipe's will be adjusted to use the more complex MKS system with multiple harvestable resources and several intermediate products.

Edit: The introduction of a second resource is independant to the MKS integration, because I needed that anyways to remove the career mode exploits mentioned some posts before. I just thought, that while I change the system and the resources anyways, that I could contact Rover to ask him about some advice regarding the integration to MKS as I personally like to play with both mods installed, because they extend each other so well if you like a challanging end game. With my current install including DMagic's science mods I can unlock the complete tech tree without leaving Kerbins soi ;-). MKS is something you can do afterwards which makes a lot of fun.

Edited August 20, 2015 by ObiVanDamme

[taniwha]

EL has not allowed building of vessels with locked parts since 5.0.1 (Jan 2015, KSP 0.90). I am not certain if the test allows experimental parts (I hope it does: it's whatever ShipConstruct.LoadShip() has to say about it). As far as I know, this was the last "exploit" (of three: the others being kerbals spawning in the new vessel (fixed in KSP 0.21), and partially built vessels did not add their mass to the mother-ship (fixed in EL 4.1, Apr 2014)). If there are any others, I want to know.

I am strongly against any scheme that makes fully independent bases impossible (part of why I am working on "Progeny" (no public pushes yet, but some have seen screenshots of my testing)). However, I am for putting tech limits on what workshops can produce just so long as those workshops can produce the requirements for the next level of workshop, possibly requiring multiple types of workshop to produce the new one, and/or high-level engineers and/or scientists (levels 3-4 for mid-tier workshops and maybe level 5 for top-tier workshops (those that can make anything)). This is, actually, something I've been considering for a while.

I have nothing against resources that cannot be found on Kerbin, or even resources that can be had only from Kerbin (in the wilds, not KSC), so long as the parts requiring those resources are not required for a fully independent base. But any resource that requires a launch from KSC is out. This includes kerbals. Civilian Populations (right name?) seems to take care of that, as will Progeny^* when it's done.

As to why I am opposed to schemes that obviate fully independent bases: there is nothing we make here on Earth that cannot be made "out there" so long as the raw materials and three primary resources are available: brains, hands, and time. Note that the ratio of hands to brains may be much greater than 2:1 (one good engineer, many workers). Also note that "out there", much less time would be required for a bootstrap operation than was required here: we already know how to make everything, so the time would go only to making each step, not figuring out not only that there is a next step, but how to make that step (ok, some stuff may have been forgotten and there might be some head-scratching on how to get from step-A to step-B, but step-B itself is already known). Humans are tool-makers. Kerbals are diminutive green tool-makers.

^* My (possibly mis-)understanding is that Civilian Populations doesn't really add much for the player to do. One of my goals with Progeny is to make it so that which kerbals you send out on that one-way mission can make or break the colony. Also, I started working on it early KSP 0.90, with a lot of thought going into it before that.

[edit]By "fully independent", I mean from KSC and Kerbin. Fully stand-alone (closed loop) is a very different kettle of fish, and I believe Maxwell may have a few things to say about that.

Edited August 20, 2015 by taniwha

[RoverDude]

As I understand it, the current exploit is that since rocket parts are cheap, you can print tons of low-mass high-cost items and recover for fairly ridiculous profit.

On the UKS side, I already solve the specializedparts bit with the fabricator (it's just a larger mass penalty).

What I would really like to see is the list of proposed resources for EL - any thoughts on when you'll have that or be prepared to discuss it?

[taniwha]

Considering how much it costs to hire enough kerbals (stock) to make the procedure worthwhile, I don't see the problem with "ridiculous profits". Anyway, they are a fact of life when you own the entire production chain.

[rabidninjawombat]

I have nothing against resources that cannot be found on Kerbin, or even resources that can be had only from Kerbin (in the wilds, not KSC), so long as the parts requiring those resources are not required for a fully independent base. But any resource that requires a launch from KSC is out. This includes kerbals. Civilian Populations (right name?) seems to take care of that, as will Progeny^* when it's done.

^* My (possibly mis-)understanding is that Civilian Populations doesn't really add much for the player to do. One of my goals with Progeny is to make it so that which kerbals you send out on that one-way mission can make or break the colony. Also, I started working on it early KSP 0.90, with a lot of thought going into it before that.

I would really love to here more about this Progeny (system? ) you are working on. Sounds promising, would be curious to see if its anything similar to what i have in mind for the future of Civilian Population.

As far as that goes in Civ Pop, civilians are treated as resources (they are an actual defined resource) but they do consume life support, and will go and leave your colony base based on if are are in the positives or negatives in life support, they are also recruit-able as Kerbanauts with the right buildings. You CAN launch them from KSC to your colony, but they will also immigrate on their own as well. (and they will reproduce if you have a high enough population)

On the Topic of OSE Workshop, I assume Obivandamme wouldn't have any objection to incorporation of a workshop functionallity(via MM) into a new part of Civ Pop (as Rover and Angel-125 have don with MKS/Pathfinder) if i decide to do so?

Edited August 20, 2015 by rabidninjawombat