What Facts Do We Know About The Devs Leaving?

[Andem]

Just now, Aperture Science said:

This thread is the best example of why SQUAD won't give answers:

It will turn into a massive, animalistic fight. Jeez, can't you guys TRY to be civilized? If you want to argue with someone, do it over PMs or something.

Ever since I joined, I have received ZERO warnings and gotten into ZERO fights. And it's really easy. Just act like an adult should.

There, rant over.

Well if we look at the last time Squad gave a clear answer that wasn't corporate-speak the fighting ended within 6 hours.

Just now, p1t1o said:

Ooooooh, so you want an answer AND you want it to be worded exactly how you want. Why didnt you just say so?

Way to put words in my mouth there, buddy.

1 minute ago, MaxPeck said:

This is pretty much the standard line that you're going to get from any company with any common sense.  Pretty sure there are laws and/or HR best practices that prohibit a company from giving any answer but this, so you can pretty much take it as a given that this is their answer and move in.

well then maybe they should have said that instead of trying to distract people with "The Future" when there was backlash.

3 minutes ago, razark said:

You say that as though there should be a calm, rational discussion about matters that aren't any of our business.

Better to have a calm discussion then two disgruntled groups screaming at each other for 12 hours... ...wait.

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, razark said:

You say that as though there should be a calm, rational discussion about matters that aren't any of our business.

This hasn't been happening only on this thread, it's everywhere, be it a game discussion, suggestion or Lounge post.

And I do agree that SQUAD's business is none of ours, however I do think that getting worried about the game's future is reasonable after the developer exodus. 

[Bomaye]

I will setup a online tinfoil hat shop for you guys, not all, but you know who. 

[Holyvision]

 They should all go help those 2 dudes over making Osiris...

[Ignath]

20 minutes ago, Andem said:

No, I'm making noise because generic company speak is, in my opinion, unacceptable after the "grief" they've caused to the community.

"They've" caused no "grief" to the community.  For all we know, the 8 left of their own volition because their contract is up.  If that is true, is it really SQUAD or the 8 that left who caused this "grief", or is it really just in a select few users' heads?

The only people causing "grief" to the community are those who are stirring up controversy, speaking without any actual knowledge of the situation and generally rabble-rousing.  SQUAD, and the 8 employees who are no longer employed by SQUAD, are under no responsibility to say anything regarding confidential employment information.

Edited October 6, 2016 by Ignath

[MaxPeck]

7 minutes ago, Andem said:

well then maybe they should have said that instead of trying to distract people with "The Future" when there was backlash.

I mean there are some things that I think can be taken as a given.  That an employer is not going to comment on the conditions under which an employee left is one of them.  I know in the US, by law, there are limits about what an employer can say - I know this because I've had to do background checks on prospective employees and the questions we ask to previous employees come from HR by way of legal.  So why would they say anything else HERE, of all places?

5 minutes ago, Aperture Science said:

And I do agree that SQUAD's business is none of ours, however I do think that getting worried about the game's future is reasonable after the developer exodus. 

Discussing the future of the game?  Yes.  Discussing how and why employees left and under what circumstances is beyond any reasonable expectation.

[tater]

There is nothing in this thread any different than the other thread. 

Pruned to "facts" it would basically be the OP of the other thread, it should be retitled "speculation about..."

[Andem]

Just now, Ignath said:

"They've" caused no "grief" to the community.  For all we know, the 8 left of their own volition because their contract is up.  If that is true, is it really SQUAD or the 8 that left who caused this "grief", or is it really just in a select few users' heads?

The only people causing "grief" to the community are those who are stirring up controversy, speaking without any actual knowledge of the situation and generally rabble-rousing.  SQUAD, and the 8 employees who left, are under no responsibility to say anything regarding confidential employment information.

There wouldn't have been controversy if they had addressed the issue well like @KasperVld would have. 

 

NOTE! I DON'T MEAN TO INSULT OR "ATTACK" THE COMMUNITY LEADS, BUT I FIND IT UNLIKELY THEY WROTE ANYTHING OTHER THAN A ROUGH DRAFT.

[DoctorDavinci]

In my retirement I do work at a tshirt screen printing shop and after reading through this thread I gotta say that imma gonna drum up a proposal for my boss to start selling screen printed tin foil hats

 

[regex]

7 minutes ago, tater said:

There is nothing in this thread any different than the other thread. 

The other thread was better. Just saying.

[razark]

16 minutes ago, Andem said:

Better to have a calm discussion then two disgruntled groups screaming at each other for 12 hours... ...wait.

Better to not discuss things that aren't open to discussion.

 

15 minutes ago, Aperture Science said:

I do think that getting worried about the game's future is reasonable after the developer exodus.

Yes, it's reasonable to wonder about the future of the game.  But that's not what's been happening.  People want Squad to tell them all about these developers that have left, and have made it clear that they aren't going to be satisfied until Squad reveals all the dirt*.

 

*And it has to be dirt.  People want drama.  Some folks aren't going to be happy until they get something from Squad telling all about how badly they treated their employees and misused the company funds etc.  A Squad employee has come here and said "These are baseless accusations and speculations."  That hasn't stopped the bloodlust.  People aren't going to stop until Squad admits that they are horrible people, no matter what the truth is.  They could post here, pointing out all the details, and people are going to claim that they're only saying what makes them look good, that they're still hiding something, that they're flat-out lying.  Whatever Squad says isn't going to change these attitudes one bit.

[Andem]

Just now, razark said:

Better to not discuss things that aren't open to discussion.

 

Yes, it's reasonable to wonder about the future of the game.  But that's not what's been happening.  People want Squad to tell them all about these developers that have left, and have made it clear that they aren't going to be satisfied until Squad reveals all the dirt*.

 

*And it has to be dirt.  People want drama.  Some folks aren't going to be happy until they get something from Squad telling all about how badly they treated their employees and misused the company funds etc.  A Squad employee has come here and said "These are baseless accusations and speculations."  That hasn't stopped the bloodlust.  People aren't going to stop until Squad admits that they are horrible people, no matter what the truth is.  They could post here, pointing out all the details, and people are going to claim that they're only saying what makes them look good, that they're still hiding something, that they're flat-out lying.  Whatever Squad says isn't going to change these attitudes one bit.

Well I certainly don't want dirt. I just want this argument to end after seeing @sal_vager profile changes. I still hold my opinion that this could have been handled better and that the lack of [insert a good word that I can't think of] interaction since then has only aggrevated matters, and I most certainly don't think that the community is out for @RoverDude's blood or anything like that. So can we, at the very least, try to conclude this in a civil manner and not argue about it again?

[monstah]

2 minutes ago, Andem said:

Well I certainly don't want dirt. I just want this argument to end after seeing @sal_vager profile changes.

Yeah, I just posted on your profile about that.

Truce? I'm not asking for anyone to agree, but let's just let it die? We all know each others opinions on this already, anyway, and we ain't changing them.

[p1t1o]

Funny thing, I get the feeling that if this thread consisted of 10 or so people around a table at the pub, the discussion would have been over in ten minutes and everybody would have been smiling the whole time

That's anonymity for you.

[monstah]

Just now, p1t1o said:

Funny thing, I get the feeling that if this thread consisted of 10 or so people around a table at the pub, the discussion would have been over in ten minutes and everybody would have been smiling the whole time

That's anonymity for you.

Maybe, maybe not. I've seen some pub tables (or at friends' for that matter) go bad.

I'd be smiling if I could have a pint 

[p1t1o]

 

6 minutes ago, monstah said:

Maybe, maybe not. I've seen some pub tables (or at friends' for that matter) go bad.

I'd be smiling if I could have a pint 

Ha! Too true!

Though I assumed due to the dearth of actual material to discuss there wouldn't be much chance of it going south.

[Andem]

15 minutes ago, monstah said:

Yeah, I just posted on your profile about that.

Truce? I'm not asking for anyone to agree, but let's just let it die? We all know each others opinions on this already, anyway, and we ain't changing them.

Well, you and I certainly have a truce. 

15 minutes ago, p1t1o said:

Funny thing, I get the feeling that if this thread consisted of 10 or so people around a table at the pub, the discussion would have been over in ten minutes and everybody would have been smiling the whole time

That's anonymity for you.

One thing's for sure, I definitely try to be f=more diplomatic in person than online, with mixed success. I take it that we are all in agreement that this need not continue?

[Hupf]

55 minutes ago, Aperture Science said:

If you want to argue with someone, do it over PMs or something.

Oh no, sorry, but this is abuse. You want room 12A, next door.

[UomoCapra]

 

Hello guys!

I understand your concerns. This whole situation has become very controversial, especially because you all know the guys who decided to part ways and they've been active on the forum for a long time. There's people that have maliciously and anonymously talked bad about the company, but I can tell you that in my personal perspective (not Squad's but my own), that's simply not true.

All my colleagues are hard working and passionate people that care about KSP. Our team is solid, talented and professional; we all want KSP to be successful, are incredibly proud of what we have achieved so far and are extremely excited about what’s coming next.

PD: We did say goodbye, we wish them well and we'll be always thankful for all the time, passion and effort they put into the game.

[nestor]

Hello,

I like the original intention of this post, listing facts and rumors.

I want to add with a few facts that I can confirm with my role as the Game Producer for KSP.

Fact: Chris (porkjet) left a few weeks ago in a totally unrelated event. He told me he had a new working opportunity. Not sure why he is listed with the rest of the group.

Fact: Sebastian (sarbian) was invited as a temporal dev to help fixing bugs until 1.2 was released

Fact: From the remaining 6 devs, 2 were working part time on KSP

Fact: 1.3 is confirmed, there are already devs working on this new version

Fact: Squad has been looking for new devs since june, new people are already working and more are coming

Fact: RoverDude (or any other team member) was not forced to make any comment about this topic

Fact: The team actually grew in comparison to the beginning of the year, even after these departures

 

These are just facts, I am not making any judgement. I was great working with all of them and I wish them the best of luck on their future endeavours.

[Terwin]

 

5 hours ago, Andem said:

Well you see, one is wholly unreasonable and one is not. If you cannot see the difference then there is nothing more for me to say to you.

Personally, as a developer with 20+ more years before retirement age, it would be less damaging to my family for a stalker to be perusing my wife(or myself), than to have a former employer publicly give *ANY* real reason for terminating my time with them.(even saying that it was their choice or my choice could do very bad things for my career), so yes, while stalking a girl is pretty serious, exposing the reason for terminating a developer is far more serious unless they are retiring with a nice pension.

It would probably spell the end for the company as well, as no self-respecting developer would agree to work for them, and anyone currently there would probably bail ASAP just to preserve their own careers.

There is good reason this sort of thing is never publicly discussed.  Even when being terminated, it is rare for the employee themselves to be given a 'real' reason for termination, and something like that would *never* be written down.

Have you ever read the story "Manna" by Marshall Brain?  The downfall is not the program, it is the communication between managers to not hire any-one who is terminated with-cause.  This sort of privacy is the only thing that prevents that sort of black-ball situation even without some sort of SF management computer.

3 hours ago, Andem said:

I'm going to need a citation on people in the community attacking @RoverDude, his job, or Squad. In my experience with threads, there have been no attacks. The legitimacy of their word has been called into question, but the community as a whole hasn't declared anyone guilty of anything. Calling something into question != attack.

Nice strawman there. Really high quality. I have said before in this very thread that all I want is a statement addressing the core reason for this uproar. There are already many explanations floating around. Even as much as "We can't disclose it at this time" would be enough.

Plato's Allegory of the Cave immediately springs to mind...

You missed my point by a mile... The point was, when a major controversy hit, they dealt with it immediately and put the concerns to rest. With all other departures, staff members left letters explaining why they left. What you say is technically correct, but you fail to see it in context.

 

If anything, I'm seeing the people arguing the other side being more "toxic" than we are.

 

See my reference above.  If RoverDude were to reveal such information he would probably never work professionally as a developer again, so asking him to destroy his career *is* attacking him.

 

1 hour ago, Andem said:

Have you even read some of my previous posts? You're making it out like I want there home addresses instead of something that culd be summed in either sentence:

"We are unable to disclose the reasons these 8 staff members have left."

or

"We hired many of them for the 1.1-2 update cycle, and others have left for reasons we will not disclose"

If @UomoCapra were to say either of those somewhere I would stop making a fuss about it. Whether they do or not is up to Squad, but I'm going to keep being loud until I get bored or they say something.

I'm not the first to say it, but Squad already said this.

Any *ANY* other public statement would spell the end of the company as far as software development goes.

If you wish for squad to 'die in a fire' then just leave and never come back, if you have any other feelings toward squad, why are you asking them to commit an act that would leave them permanently without enough in-house development talent to even package up whatever the latest build is and post it on the website as "1.2: the last ever build of KSP"?

[Mycroft]

So I woke up this morning and made the pleasant discovery that I had over 150 new posts to read. Ugh. Just finished, and I have a few things to say in light of the recent and heated debate. I fully expect to have many disagree with this, at least if you don't read the whole post. So please hear me out, and whatever you do, whatever your opinion, please DO NOT get all up in arms about it. 

So people are arguing over whether or not we even have the right to be discussing this. To be fair, if we apply the ideal of free speech that most nations uphold in general, yes we all do. The right to free speech, at its most fundamental level, gives people the right to say whatever they want. Hold back the hate for just a second, though. People are incorrect in assuming that no one has the right to discuss this. However, this does not mean that it's a good idea to discuss it. It also does not mean that SQUAD has an obligation to respond or anything like that, no matter what the clamor. People can say whatever the heck they want, and no one should try to stop them, but who said the rest of the world had to listen? IMHO, SQUAD has every right to remain silent, and honestly, that's the best thing to do right now. Also, if I were in SQUAD's position, the more rudely people clamor for information, the less I'd feel obliged to give it. So how's about we calm down and get civilized? To be perfectly honest, if you want info, the best way to get it is to address the situation with maturity. 

Another thing that's kind of hard to say is that I've noticed a trend over the last hundred posts. People are very confused and sometimes angry. They want answers. But also, so many people have been promoting rumors on this thread, this thread intended to promote facts. This leads to highly emotional, and ineffective debate. If people don't start calming down, and taking a much more rational view of things, then I'm sorry, I'll have to ask a moderator to close this thread. And I do not say that lightly. Frankly, this is the biggest thread I've ever started. And I like that. But I don't like what I've been seeing recently. If we don't calm down, then we don't need to discuss this. I'm not applying to get this closed down yet, and I really don't want to, but I will if I have to. So calm down! This thread is for debunking rumors.

5 minutes ago, nestor said:

 

I want to add with a few facts that I can confirm with my role as the Game Producer for KSP.

Fact: Chris (porkjet) left a few weeks ago in a totally unrelated event. He told me he had a new working opportunity. Not sure why he is listed with the rest of the group.

Fact: Sebastian (sarbian) was invited as a temporal dev to help fixing bugs until 1.2 was released

Fact: From the remaining 6 devs, 2 were working part time on KSP

Fact: 1.3 is confirmed, there are already devs working on this new version

Fact: Squad has been looking for new devs since june, new people are already working and more are coming

Fact: RoverDude (or any other team member) was not forced to make any comment about this topic

Fact: The team actually grew in comparison to the beginning of the year, even after these departures

 

These are just facts, I am not making any judgement. I was great working with all of them and I wish them the best of luck on their future endeavours.

Noted.

[Nerfclasher]

4 minutes ago, Terwin said:

I'm not the first to say it, but Squad already said this.

Any *ANY* other public statement would spell the end of the company as far as software development goes.

If you wish for squad to 'die in a fire' then just leave and never come back, if you have any other feelings toward squad, why are you asking them to commit an act that would leave them permanently without enough in-house development talent to even package up whatever the latest build is and post it on the website as "1.2: the last ever build of KSP"?

I wouldn't want this 

[oneshibbyguy]

5 minutes ago, nestor said:

Hello,

I like the original intention of this post, listing facts and rumors.

I want to add with a few facts that I can confirm with my role as the Game Producer for KSP...

Consider for a second to copy and paste this on the Reddit sub-forum. They are calling for Squad blood over there and it's very discouraging to say the least. 

[Andem]

@nestor

@UomoCapra

 

Thank you both for shedding some light on the topic, that has put my personal fears to rest.

3 minutes ago, Terwin said:

See my reference above.  If RoverDude were to reveal such information he would probably never work professionally as a developer again, so asking him to destroy his career *is* attacking him.

Well it would be one thing if that's what I was asking him, bit it just isn't. It's all on the first or second page if you want to see it, if you can find my posts on reddit there is more evidence. That will be all.