Does Payload specialists on board of space shuttles ware genuine astronauts?

[Pawelk198604]

Does Payload specialists on board of space shuttles were genuine astronauts? 

[p1t1o]

What is a "genuine" astronaut?

Do you have to actually fly the ship to be a "genuine astronaut"?

Do you have to put on a spacesuit and leave the ship to be a "genuine astronaut"?

If you've got the balls to strap yourself to hundreds of tons of explosive and to hope that the resulting explosion flings you into orbit, and then keep your head for long enough to provide payload related expertise, then yeah, I think you're a genuine astronaut

 

[kerbiloid]

Are they "crew" or "passengers".
Even if a forester counts deer from a helicopter cabin, he is not an aviator.

 

Edited September 24, 2018 by kerbiloid

[Nuke]

at present the % of population that goes to space is so small that i dont think there is any need for division between crew and passengers. if we get to something like we see in the expanse where space travel is essential for a larger chunk of the population, then we might see the distinction like we have between sailors and passengers. in this case astronauts and passengers. such distinctions might be useful to make in the near future, with things like space tourism and bfr. 

Edited September 24, 2018 by Nuke

[kerbiloid]

Ok, regular members of Spacemen Team and casuals hired/seconded for a single mission (say, an engineer from the payload manufacturer).

Edited September 24, 2018 by kerbiloid

[tater]

Were payload specialists on board of Space Shuttles genuine astronauts?

Interesting question. I know that there was always criticism that limited flight spots were being taken by non-career astronauts, with minimal training.

I think that it's going to be interesting to see how the astronaut/cosmonaut labels get applied when space travel is broader than it has been.

I talked for some time with (Senator) Jake Garn, who flew on the Shuttle, for example, and I'd not call him an "astronaut."

[Bill Phil]

Yes. An astronaut is anyone that has earned Astronaut Wings, or an Astronaut Badge, or an Astronaut pin.

[tater]

8 minutes ago, Bill Phil said:

Yes. An astronaut is anyone that has earned Astronaut Wings, or an Astronaut Badge, or an Astronaut pin.

I think this will need to change at some point. Where an "astronaut" is someone who is critical to spaceflight success (meaning they can take over, fix problems, EVA, whatever) as a professional class.

 

[kerbiloid]

Spoiler

Cabin crew and cabin boy.

 

[Bill Phil]

18 minutes ago, tater said:

I think this will need to change at some point. Where an "astronaut" is someone who is critical to spaceflight success (meaning they can take over, fix problems, EVA, whatever) as a professional class.

 

Probably. Especially when space tourism picks up. But as it stands now that's the way it is.

[mikegarrison]

I think the distinction between crew and passengers is whether you have a job to do. Flight attendants working that flight, for instance, are "crew", but an airline employee who is deadheading is a passenger.

[tater]

I think the Congress critters who went on Shuttle were labeled mission specialists. Strikes me they were passengers.

[Mitchz95]

Chris Hadfield mentioned this in his book, An Astronaut's Guide to Life on Earth.

When you're relying on a small ship like the Soyuz to take your people to space, you really can't afford to bring along people who can't do five different jobs themselves. Whereas with a larger ship like the shuttle, you have enough legroom to bring along mission specialists who aren't really qualified to operate the ship itself, but are nonetheless useful because of a few skills that make them valuable for the mission.

So it's the size of the ship that determines what kind of people you can bring, and I don't see why that alone should reflect whether someone on board counts as a "real" astronaut. When we have regular space tourism happening, then we can talk about whether someone counts as a passenger or an astronaut.

[Shpaget]

It's a matter of whether you are paid or have to pay to be in the spaceship.

[Gargamel]

I think if you answer no to this, then that logic might be able to extend to the Lunar Module Pilots of the Apollo missions.   Harrison "Jack" Schmidt of Apollo 17, was a geologist by trade, not a pilot. 

And since I would have to vehemently disagree with that logic then, I would say, Yes, mission specialists are astronauts.  

[wumpus]

19 hours ago, mikegarrison said:

I think the distinction between crew and passengers is whether you have a job to do. Flight attendants working that flight, for instance, are "crew", but an airline employee who is deadheading is a passenger.

Somehow I can't imagine John Glen simply being able to do any arbitrary task in the Shuttle like I'd expect a "real astronaut" to do, much the same as I wouldn't expect a shuttle astronaut to strap himself (or herself, those things were tiny and women might fit better) in a Mercury capsule.

[p1t1o]

"Naut" -

Etymology[edit]

From Ancient Greek ναύτης (naútēs, “sailor”).

Suffix[edit]

-naut

1. Forms nouns meaning a voyager, farer, or tripper

 

"Astronaut" therefore is anyone who travels in space. We attach a further romantic significance to the term because space travel is rare. I think it is a bit under-generous to deny astronaut status to any space traveller. Being a space shuttle pilot or the first person to walk someplace has its own glory, no need to deny anyone astronaut status.

Yes, I think anyone who has been on a plane has been an "aeronaut" (funnily enough, thats the name of a pub near me)(which burned down)(on the day I proposed to my finace)(it has since been reopened)(that is all)

[tater]

^^^ In which case, at some point professional "astronauts" will need a new title, just as we distinguish pilots and flight crew from "aeronauts."

Edited September 25, 2018 by tater

[NSEP]

Astronaut is not a profession, an Astronaut is someone who goes to space. An Astronaut can be a biologist, payload specialist, a mad inventor, etc. Its kind of like being a diver. Divers are divers not just to dive, they actually do something underwater.

 

[adsii1970]

18 hours ago, Gargamel said:

I think if you answer no to this, then that logic might be able to extend to the Lunar Module Pilots of the Apollo missions.   Harrison "Jack" Schmidt of Apollo 17, was a geologist by trade, not a pilot. 

And since I would have to vehemently disagree with that logic then, I would say, Yes, mission specialists are astronauts.  

And every member of the crew had responsibilities which were duplicated with the other team members. I forgot where I read it at, but each task an astronaut had another crewman trained to do that same task with limited proficiency (basically just enough to get it done). This way, with the worst case scenario, the mission could still continue. No doubt about it - mission specialists are astronauts.

[AngrybobH]

On 9/24/2018 at 10:12 AM, p1t1o said:

If you've got the balls to strap yourself to hundreds of tons of explosive and to hope that the resulting explosion flings you into orbit, and then keep your head for long enough to provide payload related expertise, then yeah, I think you're a genuine astronaut

I have to quote this as it's probably the best way to sum it up.

Think about humanity as a whole, what percent of the population would be even willing to chance a ride on a rocket? Then, what percentage of them are useful enough to send to space? Then, what percentage to them could qualify physically and mentally to get the job done? If you qualify to go to space enough that someone would be willing to put you in a rocket with a job to do and then you go, you're an astronaut.

[magnemoe]

19 hours ago, Gargamel said:

I think if you answer no to this, then that logic might be able to extend to the Lunar Module Pilots of the Apollo missions.   Harrison "Jack" Schmidt of Apollo 17, was a geologist by trade, not a pilot. 

And since I would have to vehemently disagree with that logic then, I would say, Yes, mission specialists are astronauts.  

I would rater limit it to EVA personnel rater than pilots
More logically at the time we get an city sized space station, Moon or Mars base it makes sense to limit title to people who work has to do with spaceflight or EVA. 
Not an chef on an moon base. On the other hand an chef on an oil platform work offshore just as much as the drill operators and has to have the offshore safety training but oil platforms are not city sized. 

[YNM]

Those that help with the "flying" of the spaceships are called 'Commander' and 'Pilot'.

Those that helps with the operation and mission of a spaceship is the spaceship's crew.

And any spaceship crew should be an astronaut.

 

If I were to be launched with minimal training and I don't hold any responsibility I won't start calling myself once I'm back 'an astronaut'. But if I held some responsibility and I helped with the operation of the spaceship... well, on your head be it.

[55delta]

I think this question has pretty much been answered. But for those holding out, I find it easier to come to answer based on earlier precedent, which would be from the navy and the air force.

As for cities in space, what about cities on the water? What determines who is counted as a sailor on an aircraft carrier?

[Arugela]

Define the word astronaut thoroughly and you have the answer technically. What is the word and where does it come from? What languages are it derived from and what do those word fragments mean?

Edited September 26, 2018 by Arugela