Wjolcz

That's nice and all, but are they planning to do anything with the career mode? It would be nice to finally have a playable version with all of the systems being relevant, unlike it is now. Simple "contract tweaks" don't cut it anymore.

The problem is the stock game lacks a lot of things that should have been added a long time ago. I recommend you checking the mod section of the forums as the mods there greatly enhance the game and make it look finished.

This wouldn't be a problem if we had a proper career mode with a proper working system based on rep with tech being researched with money.

Or we could have KAS fuel hoses.

He had it modelled, but just before the release the shape of mk2 was changed and it no longer fit the new, symmetrical parts.

I remember trying to record the game with OBS once. It was always getting stuck on the first frame. Never figured what was the problem.

What's the point of this poll?

But you also do science and complete program missions in Jool SOI. They also get you reputation and IMO they should give you enough rep to get you back home (if you're really planning to do that) with the warp button pushed to the fullest, but again: it's a matter of balancing the rep rewards. *tactical eyeroll and sigh* I don't see that as a problem. The player should know the consequences of literally not doing anything in his/hers free time. Not my fault the game doesn't provide basic information about things. This has already been discussed. All of the program's missions/objectives would be available from the start. As you complete programs new become available (First finish the Jool Scientific Program to unlock the Jool Colonisation Program, or sth like that AKA Scruffy's mission tree idea). I don't like the clicky experiments either, but this is not what we are discussing here. Making them more fun won't fix the broken career system. I also agree with this. Except that could also be done in the more sane system that we are discussing here. I'm sure it could, but it won't fix the problem which is the overcomplicated mess we all call "The Career Mode".

What? Which makes sense. Which makes zero sense and is also backwards and limiting. How is merging two modes and adding a third one not influencing the choice of playstyles? You choose to go for science only (Science Mode), for missions/contracts only (Commercial Mode), or for both of those options (Career Mode) + you pick the objectives youself instead of wasting time in the Mission Control cycling through a bunch of nonsensical and random "contracts". And again: it all depends on how it's balanced. Because the current system is flawed. Also what kind of problems are you talking about? Care do give any examples? As it should. Do nothing and get nothing. Do something and get something. It's simple. There are plenty of thing to do around Kerbin's SOI only. Don't forget we also have two other bodies there. Start a Kerbin space station, launch a spy sat into a molniya orbit, launch a sat into a tundra orbit, a geostationary orbit, perform a set of experiments, build a Mun space station, Build a Mun base, maintain it, maintain the orbits of the spy/communication sats, rotate the crew, add an ISRU unit to your Mun base, start assembling an interplanetary vessel in LKO, add another module to it and so on and so forth. Do you want me to make a whole list of things possible in Kerbin's SOI only? Well, I'm not going to say I'm the best at algebra (I'm actually not and didn't pass a few final exams during my high school times), but I can calculate it for you, if you want. Just hit me with a PM whenever you need it. OK, so let's do the "20 minutes of algebra", shall we? -Let's assume that 1 reputation = 1K in money -Let's also assume the reputation decay is 2 per day -The month is 30 days long (I don't remember how much a Kerbin month takes, but I don't really care at this point) You start your first month with 160 rep points, which just got you 160K funds. You did nothing for a whole round month, so you end up with 100 rep points (-60 rep points; 2 points per day). A new morning has come and the payday is here! You have 100 rep points so you get 100K in funds. Taaaa-daaaaa! You can hit that big, red button on your stopwatch now. How much time did it take me to calculate this whole thing?

Ehh... You are either not reading carefully (again), or completely rejecting the concept of this whole thread (also again). Some people tell me I'm a really patient man. Anyway, here we go again: No, I'm not. The player would have a choice. Do a juicy (reputation-wise) program with a whole lot of missions and earn a whole bunch of rep to warp thrugh the Jool/Duna/Whatever mission (and lose tons of rep you've just earned), or do one mission per month to keep your reputation in a healthy conidition. One mission per month is not a lot, really. The mission-per-month thing is a sort of a life boat keeping you on the surface of the ocean of reputation. As long as it's full of air, you won't sink. Also, it's just an example. it all depends on how the whole system gets balanced. If we get to play with the sliders ourselves it could even be 1 LKO mission per 3 months/6 months/a whole year to keep you afloat. It all depends on how the system gets balanced. Exactly. All we have to take care of is getting reputation (just like in real life; prove yourself useful so you can keep your space program running). I really don't understand this sentence. Do you mean grind? If so, then it also depends on how the devs balance it all (the reputation reward per mission) There's no trade-off system in the current game. You either fail at the start, get stuck or earn tons and tons of resources (by grind, if you're playing on hard/custom hard settings). The science points are useless anyway if you've completed the tech tree. All you do then is sit in the Admin Building and add to your forever-growing piggy bank or reputation bar. No, I'm not. If the only thing to care about is reputation, then all you have to keep your eye on is THE reputation, as it influences the (preferably) monthly budget. If only the game would atumatically calculate your reputation by the end of the month, then there's no problem with keeping your budget at a healthy level each time a new month starts. It's also not unpredictable, as you have a constant influence on what's happening during your month (launching rockets into LKO/HKO/completing missions from other programs). And again, the 2 rep per day decay was just an example. You have completely taken that out of context. You get the money up front. At the beginning of each month, that is. You know how much you have, and if you do well this month, you raise your reputation level and know how much money you'll have next month (given that it's somehow calculated in-game, or we can calculate it ourselves by knowing what's the reputation decay).

The experiments would work the same way they do now, except they would generate reputation points instead of science points. Also completed mission objectives would grant you reputation. The tech would be unlocked with money and time. That way we wouldn't have to deal with the "go places, unlock parts afterwards" mechanic. EDIT: As the science is no longer directly tied to tech we are not forced to gather it in order to progress. We can perform missions only, gather science only or do both! Isn't freedom better than grind? Keep in mind that as the Jool mission is en-route there are also other programs available. Completing them would also get you reputation. Preferably way more than standard Kerbin SOI missions. They would be simply a way to keep your reputation healthy if you are running low on reputation. You accept a program -> spend the whole money given by the program on tech (which takes about a month to research) -> you are left with the money you had from the reputation -> launch and complete a Kerbin SOI mission -> now you are left with roughly the same amount of rep by the end of the month and get the same amount of money next month. It's just in case you can't afford "excessive" time warping without doing anything. Of course we are assuming the career has just started in this thought experiment. If, for example, you have an Eve probe and a Duna probe orbiting each of the bodies, you could do orbital manouvers, which would also count as completed missions (and thus raise/keep your reputation in a healthy state). One mission per month is not really a problem. We already have to do dozens of tedious missions in stock, which is something you don't seem to complain about much. You would do a mission and warp for the rest of the month instead. The difference here is you would be able to pick what kind of mission you want to do (either a station crew rotation/resource refill/spy sat/whatever) instead of grinding through a bunch random missions the current career offers us. Alright. I'm done editing this post.

Yes, I totally agree. The missions from programs should also grant reputation for completion, but what I meant was a situation when the player focuses his/hers time on researching tech only. Let's say he/she spends the money from the program (the bonus that is granted every month for 6 months) on the tech, but doesn't have enough to land a probe on Mun (maybe also lacks the landing gear). If that's the case the player would spend the money (the rest that is left after spending the program's bonus on the research) to perform an LKO mission. They wouldn't have to, but if they are in danger of losing too much rep for doing nothing they should be offered a way to at least keep the rep on the same level. So it looks more or less like this: The player accepts the program and gets the money bonus (11k from the annual budget influenced by rep + 60k from the program). Then he/she spends the 60k on the tech needed for the Mun landing. He/she is left with 11k (let's assume it's not enough to get you beyond LKO). Then to maintain the healthy amount of rep he/she performs an LKO mission (they have 60 points of rep. The rep drop is 2 per day. The mission gives about 60 rep and the player is left with roughly the same amount of rep by the end of the month). We would be able to perform multiple programs, so waiting for the Jool mission to arrive would not be a problem if we had alternative ways of getting reputation in the meantime. So: the Jool mission is on it's way. While it's going there you start a new program. Let's say it's a Minmus exploration program. You do missions the program throws at you but you also have those low-rep LKO missions in case you are stuck and waiting for the tech needed to land on Minmus (as previously stated: the tech needs money and time. If you've picked a lot of tech the time needed for the research adds up. If it happens to be a whole month, then you do the LKO/atmospheric missions to maintain the reputation on the same level). If, for example, the player decides to warp until the Jool mission hits the Jool SOI, then they should be allowed to do so. It's their choice. Maybe they accumulated enough rep and are able to take the hit once they stop warping for three months. Maybe they want to go back to launching sounding rockets again. It's their choice. All I'm saying is that the time should be relevant. It isn't in the current version of career. EDIT: I also think that every part that just got researched should also give a tiny amount of reputation.

I don't mean to bump my thread all the time, but was actually thinking of ways to deal with this problem recently. So, let's say you have a program in progress ('Mun Manned Landing' for example. Let's say it takes 6 months to fund and complete). Now, the 'big' program is in progress and we can't harvest rep for it yet. You may think "Oh, crap! I'm gonna be left with no rep before I finish the program!". Well, not really, actually. I think that one mission (either LKO or HKO, or keostationary, or any other orbit within Kerbin's SOI) per month should be enough to keep your reputation at the more or less same level. That way we spend our time actually doing something while also waiting for the bigger job to get completed and we don't lose rep in the process. Same with longer duration missions. Why the hell not put a few extra satelites in the polar orbit or resupply your space station while one of our probes is on its way to Jool? It's not a problem when you have the annual funds granted per month (based on your rep). And how to deal with this problem if you don't have enough rep to go into space? Accept a few atmospheric missions (because NASA also has SOFIA and the Scramjet programs going on while keeping their astronauts aboard ISS alive and running the Juno mission). They would give lower rep rewards, but would also be a lot cheaper since you land your aircraft back at the KSC. So to sum up: One space Kerbin SOI mission or two atmospheric missions per month should keep your rep at the (more or less) same level. Of course the player could squeeze a few more of each mission during the one month period, but he/she would also have to think about engineering challenges to have enough money to keep completing them (SSTOs? SpaceX-style recovery? Cheap launch system like the Pegasus?). I'm actually not sure if Pegasus is cheap tbh. EDIT: Wolololo it's actually almost the same price as F9 but who cares? It's just an example.

The science points system sucks (+is unrealistic), so my question is: Are there any mods that let the tech tree nodes to be unlocked with money and time? I think RO has something like that? AFAIK the parts there are unlocked with time, but is there anything like it except for stock tree?

I agree, though would still prefer to do that with money (but haven't found a mod that does that).

SSI used to be a group of small SSTO builders here on the forums. BTW I only encountered a few of these contracts. Do they appear later too?

I feel like the whole "balancing" act is the main problem of this game. There are way too many points systems to care about: Science, Reputation and Money. Then there are all the rewards and each contract has its own reward based on the objectives, which are randomly generated (due to some odd decision making). Then there are also strategies which have to be balanced with each of those three resources with each stage of the tech tree "progression". Anyway, my point is it gets way too convoluted really fast and that hurts the game, the gameplay, dev work and mainly the career mode progression. I say: -Make money reputation dependent -Make reputation experiments dependent (they grant you rep instead of science points) -Make tech money and time dependent -Let us have direct influence on the types of missions generated (by picking programs AKA "filters" ourselves) And probably a few other things I forgot about but can be found here. That way we are monitoring only two resources (money and rep) which feed into each other directly and are easier to balance. No extra modifiers (strategies) are needed as the loop closes itself and the extra steps (programs and missions) don't disturb each other.

I just started a new career save to test all of this and it's sooooo much better than stock! I have one question though: It seems like the SSI contracts unlock parts, so I assume I don't even need to bother with visiting the R&D and unlocking the tree, right?

This is amazing!

@KerikBalm woooooaaah! I need that Laythe SSTO! Where can I see more pics of it/DL?

A lot of duplicate suggestions are emerging since the old "What Not To Suggest" title is gone. I might be wrong, but I have a feeling that people seem to not pay attention to this one since there's no big "What Not To Do" warning in the title.

These things actually are on the list (or used to be on the WNTS). Having electric propellers would be cool though.

What are the system requirements?

I think it was named that after the rocket punched into it hard. I didn't mean to make it a pun, but now it actually makes more sense hehe.

Career overhaul first.