[1.12.x] USI Life Support

[RoverDude]

So a few points and I apologize for the brevity as i am on mobile.

First.  Every parameter is configurable including multipliers and effects.  Just open up the life support window in the space center scene.

 

Second.  All of the contracts in the world will not prevent someone from going totally bananas when cooped up for too long.  Med bays are basically shrinks doping you up till you come back down in this context.

 

Third...  What size do you expect a vessel to be that houses 20 people for five years without them going nuts and deciding to airlock Ferbald Kerman because he keeps up that annoying humming?

 

Fourth.  You are using a combination of quarters and hab multiplier parts right?  Making a vessel with hab times in decades is not hard.  But it's going to have a realistic relative size   if you are failing to use multiplier parts that's your problem.  Add a few cupolas and play with the math in the VAB 

 

I ultimately just don't agree with your position above, and believe your issue is a vessel design one, coupled with unrealistic expectations regarding the psychological effects of groups squished in small quarters or subjected to isolation.  There is a reason NASA pays volunteers to study this.  Though I think vessel design is the more likely culprit given how Hardy Kerbals are configured to be.

 

Edited August 28, 2019 by RoverDude

[RoverDude]

FYI @vossiewulf - here's a ship using stock with USI-LS that can support twenty Kerbals for five years.  This was just winging it - I could probably make a more mass efficient one, but you get the idea.

(Edit:  Add some of the larger recyclers and a couple more greenhouses plus the large fertilizer vat included and you're gonna be fine on life support as well).

Edited August 28, 2019 by RoverDude

[Loren Pechtel]

1 hour ago, RoverDude said:

So a few points and I apologize for the brevity as i am on mobile.

Fourth.  You are using a combination of quarters and hab multiplier parts right?  Making a vessel with hab times in decades is not hard.  But it's going to have a realistic relative size   if you are failing to use multiplier parts that's your problem.  Add a few cupolas and play with the math in the VAB 

 

I ultimately just don't agree with your position above, and believe your issue is a vessel design one, coupled with unrealistic expectations regarding the psychological effects of groups squished in small quarters or subjected to isolation.  There is a reason NASA pays volunteers to study this.  Though I think vessel design is the more likely culprit given how Hardy Kerbals are configured to be.

I do have a problem with how hab time works--we need some bigger parts.  Look at your example of a 5-year ship.  There are a lot of parts on there to get that 5 years.  I'd like to see some bigger things that provide the same benefits for similar cost & weight but using a lot fewer pieces.  If crew capacity and bonuses were altered by TweakScale that would probably do the job, although I would like to see an in-line module with bonuses.

[RoverDude]

1 minute ago, Loren Pechtel said:

I do have a problem with how hab time works--we need some bigger parts.  Look at your example of a 5-year ship.  There are a lot of parts on there to get that 5 years.  I'd like to see some bigger things that provide the same benefits for similar cost & weight but using a lot fewer pieces.  If crew capacity and bonuses were altered by TweakScale that would probably do the job, although I would like to see an in-line module with bonuses.

Well I just used stock parts in that example   If I used MKS parts I could get it a lot lower (even super low with the 10m/20m Atlas parts or hab ring).  But I also intentionally do not add a lot of extra stuff to USI-LS as it's a support mod, and folks that use other USI stuff have plenty of other options.  I'd add that 20 Kerbals is a bit extreme.  So I would say it's not a hab issue but a part ecosystem issue.  Two different things.

20 Kerbals... Six years...  Three parts:

'The Martian' Hermes style...  Six crew, seven year hab timer.... three parts.  I can keep rattling these 30-second builds off all day, but I think @Loren Pechtel and @vossiewulf that should cover it.

[vossiewulf]

2 hours ago, RoverDude said:

So a few points and I apologize for the brevity as i am on mobile.

Fair enough, as noted I'm not trying to change anything. If it needed fundamental changes you'd have made them some time ago as it's had plenty of feedback. But the above is how I would do it if I was building a system from scratch. I understand what you're saying, but I have a different assessment of the assumptions.

And since I'm not planning on building a colonization system for KSP, there doesn't seem to be much point in arguing whether the design is correct  

That said, as Loren notes some smaller high hab-power parts would be helpful, as you see from your own example you have to go to extremes with the current parts. Since that's just an addition with no changes to the design, I feel fine about asking for something like that.

They could go late in the tech tree. Like a holodeck, designed by Data Kerman of course. Or an entertainment module with zero G racquetball court. Make them require gobs of EC and be very costly, but they make it possible to design ships not covered in cupolas.

I also appreciate the example you made. I'll spend some more time seeing what I can manage with the existing parts.

 

[RoverDude]

2 minutes ago, vossiewulf said:

That said, as Loren notes some smaller high hab-power parts would be helpful, as you see from your own example you have to go to extremes with the current parts. Since that's just an addition with no changes to the design, I feel fine about asking for something like that.

Please look at the immediate message after that...  I would not call a three part hab section that can carry 20 kerbals for six years lacking in power  

[RookFett]

Did a search in this thread - are replacement parts and the break down of Life support working, testing stuff and can't seem to get that to show up.    any pointers?

[vossiewulf]

33 minutes ago, RoverDude said:

Please look at the immediate message after that...  I would not call a three part hab section that can carry 20 kerbals for six years lacking in power  

I'm not sure I would call a centrifugal hab "smaller", but I admit I didn't know some of those parts had that high a hab time or multiplier. I thought I had looked over the MKS parts carefully. Thanks, those will help.

But I'll probably also take on the challenge of building a modular hometime-setting station where I can control how much hab time it has by undocking modules, because it will be complicated and another reason to build a giant overbuilt space station.

[RoverDude]

Also note that there are very specific formulas I use for LS so all parts are correctly balanced - meaning, there's no 'special' parts that get you better mass, etc. for the same hab, recycling, etc.

[Loren Pechtel]

40 minutes ago, vossiewulf said:

I'm not sure I would call a centrifugal hab "smaller", but I admit I didn't know some of those parts had that high a hab time or multiplier. I thought I had looked over the MKS parts carefully. Thanks, those will help.

But I'll probably also take on the challenge of building a modular hometime-setting station where I can control how much hab time it has by undocking modules, because it will be complicated and another reason to build a giant overbuilt space station.

Yeah, I had no idea there were hab time multipliers there, either.  The only way I knew to get high hab time was something like that earlier rocket studded with observation portals, or else a bunch of the big rings.

[goldenpsp]

11 hours ago, vossiewulf said:

I'm not sure I would call a centrifugal hab "smaller", but I admit I didn't know some of those parts had that high a hab time or multiplier. I thought I had looked over the MKS parts carefully. Thanks, those will help.

But I'll probably also take on the challenge of building a modular hometime-setting station where I can control how much hab time it has by undocking modules, because it will be complicated and another reason to build a giant overbuilt space station.

It really isn't that big when you imagine 20 kerbals trying to live in it.  And the relevant piece @RoverDude was illustrating was not just physical size but part count. 

[KerbMav]

If I may?

If anyone would like to get more hab time out of smaller/fewer parts, maybe just raise that Hab Multiplier value in the settings.

[Jognt]

12 minutes ago, KerbMav said:

If I may?

If anyone would like to get more hab time out of smaller/fewer parts, maybe just raise that Hab Multiplier value in the settings.

I’ve just disabled the Hab effects since they made no sense to me, but thanks for the suggestion. 

 

[RoverDude]

And this is why there are so many dials and options in that UI

[dlrk]

@RoverDude Any thoughts on a loneliness mechanic?

[RoverDude]

7 minutes ago, dlrk said:

@RoverDude Any thoughts on a loneliness mechanic?

Always an option, though I'd have to noodle it.

[dlrk]

Sounds good (though I don't know what noodle means), I was thinking of something like in Kerbal Health

[DStaal]

There was one for a little while, or at least an attempt at one.  (Maybe it was just in MKS?)

[Jognt]

4 hours ago, RoverDude said:

And this is why there are so many dials and options in that UI

Well it was mostly because Val decided to instantly be a tourist when she boarded her pod to return home to Kerbin (JNSQ, 2.7x scale). Which was.. frustrating (I mean, “come ON! The only reason you’re not going home, is YOU!”)

Thanks for the many options. On the one hand I’d prefer slightly different implementations, but on the other I’m glad I have full control about what existing bits I use  

[jpinard]

Sorry if this has been asked and I missed it.  Does this work with the parts from Stockalike Stations from Nertea?

[Norcalplanner]

46 minutes ago, jpinard said:

Sorry if this has been asked and I missed it.  Does this work with the parts from Stockalike Stations from Nertea?

USI-LS works extremely well with SSPXr by Nertea.

This is a craft that went from Gael to Nodens in an upscaled GPP/GEP game in six years using Karborundum, with enough USI-LS life support and habitation on board for a dozen Kerbals to get there and make it back:

Edited August 30, 2019 by Norcalplanner
Added an example

[jpinard]

31 minutes ago, Norcalplanner said:

USI-LS works extremely well with SSPXr by Nertea.

This is a craft that went from Gael to Nodens in an upscaled GPP/GEP game in six years using Karborundum, with enough USI-LS life support and habitation on board for a dozen Kerbals to get there and make it back:

Beautiful!!!

[horngeek]

An issue I've been having- stations with solar panels don't seem to be taking them into account when calculating how much EC is available for supplies.  Any idea how to fix this?

[RoverDude]

Solar has too much variability to show in the vab.  So you'll have to experiment.  Since it's turned off in catch up anyway, just make sure you have enough battery storage and you will be fine.

[horngeek]

It's not in the VAB- I've got two stations, both of which have the same design, both of which have two Gigantors, one orbiting Kerbin and one the Mun, and both- when in sunlight- are energy-positive.  However, I'm having to come back to focus on both of them pretty much every day, because otherwise they *will* run out of power.