[1.12.5] Bluedog Design Bureau - Stockalike Saturn, Apollo, and more! (v1.14.0 "металл" 30/Sep/2024)

[CollectingSP]

DSCS III-A1 Preparing for WDR @ SLC-37B, CCSFS, FL- 2024-7-14

[Taco Salad]

Alright I'm on the beta, having some issues with the Prometheus/Titan radial decoupler now. Right clicking on it causes the menu to pop up all bugged, and then completely prevent right clicking on any part till I close and re open the VAB.


Here's the KSP log. https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/992jw84cwqr2g6jblsn8l/KSP.log?rlkey=7movmv13yk2cnap8dpjr462ub&st=gr5zfj5r&dl=0

[marxman28]

On 7/13/2024 at 5:41 PM, zakkpaz said:

I’m having trouble with the X-15, most of the parts aren’t showing up in game anymore.

All the files are in the folder

Where do you even get the X-15? I can't find it in my folders.

[Rodger]

46 minutes ago, marxman28 said:

Where do you even get the X-15? I can't find it in my folders.

It's on the dev branch of the GitHub, not in any releases. https://github.com/CobaltWolf/Bluedog-Design-Bureau/tree/1.14-Development To download, press the green code button and select download .zip. It's not recommended to use dev branch for a "real" play-through, and there can be multiple updates a day (it can be worth setting up github desktop to sync updates, vs redownloading the whole thing over and over), but if you want to help test go ahead!

52 minutes ago, Taco Salad said:

Alright I'm on the beta, having some issues with the Prometheus/Titan radial decoupler now. Right clicking on it causes the menu to pop up all bugged, and then completely prevent right clicking on any part till I close and re open the VAB.


Here's the KSP log. https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/992jw84cwqr2g6jblsn8l/KSP.log?rlkey=7movmv13yk2cnap8dpjr462ub&st=gr5zfj5r&dl=0

Weird, not seen this one before... I'll have a look into it

[Rodger]

4 hours ago, Taco Salad said:

Alright I'm on the beta, having some issues with the Prometheus/Titan radial decoupler now. Right clicking on it causes the menu to pop up all bugged, and then completely prevent right clicking on any part till I close and re open the VAB.

I can’t reproduce this still. Does it happen with freshly built craft, as opposed to loading a saved craft? And how did you install your other mods? If you don’t use CKAN I might recommend clean reinstalls (delete old versions) of: system heat, at utils/configurable containers/throttle controlled avionics. Maybe even try without TCA and CC installed just to check.

If none of that helps, and it does happen with freshly made craft, a copy of your modulemanager.configcache from your main gamedata folder could be helpful too

[Taco Salad]

9 minutes ago, Rodger said:

I can’t reproduce this still. Does it happen with freshly built craft, as opposed to loading a saved craft? And how did you install your other mods? If you don’t use CKAN I might recommend clean reinstalls (delete old versions) of: system heat, at utils/configurable containers/throttle controlled avionics. Maybe even try without TCA and CC installed just to check.

If none of that helps, and it does happen with freshly made craft, a copy of your modulemanager.configcache from your main gamedata folder could be helpful too

Okay weird, deleted and reinstalled system heat, and now it works fine. Thanks for the help!

[Rodger]

Glad it was that easy!

[GoldForest]

Delta III launching random CommSat.

~15,000 km x ~15,000 km at 45 degrees

Full album: Imgur: The magic of the Internet

[Taco Salad]

2 hours ago, GoldForest said:

Delta III launching random CommSat.

~15,000 km x ~15,000 km at 45 degrees

Full album: Imgur: The magic of the Internet

I like the kick stage

[GoldForest]

59 minutes ago, Taco Salad said:

I like the kick stage

Tis just Skylab TRS. Nothing special lol.

[OrbitalManeuvers]

11 hours ago, Pappystein said:

It tries to Dog-Leg, in atmosphere and over Yaws.

This part makes one go "hmmm."  What about standard launches into your current inclination?

[Pappystein]

6 hours ago, OrbitalManeuvers said:

This part makes one go "hmmm."  What about standard launches into your current inclination?

Similar issues except it is in pitch instead of Yaw.   BUT  CLARITY HERE:  That was on an old install, I have only done one PVG this install which was the Titan SRM1 CORE I posted 5 pages ago.

Because I realize several of you wonderful and awesome people are trying to be a wonderful help, and I am leading you astray without giving the context to what I can and can not test.  I am on JNSQ currently (so mostly Equatorial launches from main KSP launch site.

 

 

Also Power and Internet are back up (yay)  Living in the country in a valley during a severe thunderstorm means utilities go out easy    I will try to get my Saturn-IB launch profile up latter today!

now back to cleaning all the limbs out of my yard that came down last night.

Edited July 15 by Pappystein

[GoldForest]

Hmmm. @Pappystein When was thr last time you fresh installed KSP? And have you kept your mods up to date? I use PVG all the time in 2.5x and never have the problems you're describing, unless I've built a custom rocket and don't have it balanced well.

[Pappystein]

43 minutes ago, GoldForest said:

Hmmm. @Pappystein When was thr last time you fresh installed KSP? And have you kept your mods up to date? I use PVG all the time in 2.5x and never have the problems you're describing, unless I've built a custom rocket and don't have it balanced well.

Clean KSP install (To Try CKAN) was 2 months ago.  But when I was trying to utilize PVG I did 3 fresh installs back to back to back.   IDK  Probably something I did (obviously) or something I didn't do.  But that is OK

The positive of this experiment was I no longer distrust CKAN for stable releases.

maybe, with all your help PVG is the next mountain I conquer

Edited July 15 by Pappystein

[Pappystein]

Ok, Saturn IB.   How to Launch, the Pappystein "Easy" Edition     
*note any comments about being easy are expresedly wrong, false and otherwise incorrect!*

First off, to quote a famous KSP YouTuber...   "Check your Staging..."

And things were going SO PERFECT!   

Oops!   We will reference this picture a few times during the following discussion!

Also a Caviet,  As can be seen by my last few posts, I do not particularly like or trust PVG mode on MechJeb.   Saturn IB is one of the 2 primary rockets I have had issues with using PVG.   I may come back to PVG latter and do another post like this (the craft file is saved)

Ok,   The Setup.   I am using JNSQ with several but not every Visual mod possible.   I have BDB installed, the Pafftek HypergolicBDB extra patch (Aerozine50/NTO in the Service module is your dead giveaway.)   And since this is JNSQ it is about a 2.7x vs Stock system so orbit is 97ish km.   and this leads to the first problem with Saturn IB...

Scale

A Real 1:1 scale system and Saturn IB is ***EASIER*** to orbit.   There is a reason a lot of people play with RSS/RO/RP-1 etc.

Needless to say, my failure to add a Pilot or a Control block to the Apollo Capsule was an epic failure on Checking my staging eh?

So re-launch:

Spoiler

So just after ignition and launch.   I do not have modular launchpads installed because, while awesome and realistic  for the most part, I just don't want to spend the time setting them up.   When I am looking for "more realisim"  Modular launchpads is one of the first "visual non performance" things I add to KSP1.

As we can see, we have Mechjeb Ascent Guidance set to Classic Ascent path with an Orbit goal of 400km (we are not shooting for 400km, we are shooting for 150-200km.  More on this in a moment)

We have our turn shape set to 92.9 percent  our Turn end altitude set to 300km (vs the default 60 if you set it to auto) and everything else is default.   Autostaging is off.  And I am using Smart Parts to control staging so I do not add human error:

The Smart Part Drainex system is amazing for automating your rockets.   This one's settings are Fuel type Liquid Fuel,  Fuel remaining 0%, and action of STAGE.   Note this works great for your Titan IIIC/D Titan IV launches that are supposed to have Main Engine ignition arround 10 seconds before SRM burn out.   Set the fuel to SOLID, fuel remaining at 2% and then action of STAGE with the next stage being Main engine Activation.

Inserted here because it does actually impact performance a smidge, and we need every smidge we can get.

Oh, the Saturn IB rocket.  Probably should talk about that.  
So this is setup as a later Saturn IB rocket because I am carrying an Orbital Service Module.   So the engines are H-1C/D set to 1973 standards.   The J-2 is left AS IS, and the Apollo Blk2 Service module is given "Orbital" setting with monopropellant and fuel maxed out.

I knew before launching, from experience, that I could launch this rocket into about a 200km orbit +/- but I would use about 1/2 to 2/3rds of the SM fuel to do so.

Back to our launch Paramaters.  I have the final turn set to end at 300km and a goal of 400 km. in MechJeb.  But I know I won't make that, so mid flight we are going to change the Ascent Guidance to circularize better.

This shot was taken after I altered the Flight profile (immediately after)  with 721m/s D/V in the tank I was not going to make the 300km to finish circularizing so I set 250km when at 270km.   NOW THIS IS IMPORTANT.   IF we used PVG to launch this puppy this way, the rocket would have ended up burning up in ATMO because it would "Coast back down" to that 250km I just set.  

IN the case of Classic ascent however it immediately pulls the nose to the horizon and starts burning again... Which is what we see here (we are below 300km our end turn but we are riding the horizon already)  

Now, when the Drainex Sensor (that is on the S-IVB stage on the other side of the rocket (I missed a picture of this!) detects 0 LqdHydrogen, it will kick the interstage open and allow the CSM to light up its AJ10 immediately.  

 

Success!   Apollo Blk2 ORBITAL CSM is in orbit with over 1/3rd fuel remaining.  

Now Cheats I could have utilized from the Tech in BDB and Re-Stock, that could have made this an easier flight.  AKA thinks you can do if you want to launch a Saturn IB sized payload!

1) most simply, I could have reduced/removed the fins on the S-IB stage.   While the fins are lighter on the S-IB stage, they are still mass that is really not needed with the quality gimbal support.

2) I could have chosen a SM config that utilized less fuel.   or reduced the fuel load in the SM.  <--  Very true, but the goal here was to get into orbit with a maximal payload including the Apollo SM.   Why do you think the C-2 Saturn had a SHORTER first stage with 200,000lb less fuel and oxidizer than Saturn IB?   Cluster is kinda... no... it is ABSOLUTE JANK.   It shouldn't have been built after the inital prototypes to prove a stage that large could fly.   It would have been far better to have a new tool made for a 360" Diameter tank barrels.   In my C-2 C-3 article I actually show a Monohull for the C-2 would have been 1/3rd the height and 1/2 the empty mass of the shortened S-I stage from Saturn I/IB.   

3) I could have utilized a Single F-1 or upgraded the H-1Ds to H-2s... or used 4/5 Rocketdyne E-1 engines.    All true and all would have given us much better performance to orbit.   But I am trying to keep this launch "semi" historical, where all of those would be ab-historical.

4) Monohull Saturn:   Yep better see all the above points

5) UA-1205/6/6F/7 cluster of 5/6/7 SRMs replace first stage... Yep, in fact this is one of the reasons we have UA-1206F in game because it was proposed for this role!

6) AJ-260.   Ahh the too heavy to move, too hard to make on the stand, Monolithic SRM (And still the most powerful SRM ever fired, just not launched!)   again see above.

7) M55 or Algols as as SRM booster for Stage 1 (so burns with the H-1s)   possible, Historically was considered an option.   But still ab-history for this launch.

8) CS1562 or 3 SRMs in a cluster of 4...   <-- one of the proposals everyone misses    there are some good 2.5m boosters but because of the Ugly White truck, every one of them has bell bottoms on it like it is the late 1960s to mid 1970s.   Bellbottoms prevent their use in this role!   Also Bellbottoms are just dumb in all instances.

 

Ok that was a fun "How to" to get right.  I launched 7 times over the past three days trying to notate the 'best practice' for getting things good.   NOTE  Saturn IB esp in early launch configurations is incredibly hard to get into orbit.  Getting what I did was pretty good.   This is a function of scale error mostly due to extra density down low.

 

 

[OrbitalManeuvers]

2 hours ago, Pappystein said:

several of you wonderful and awesome people are trying to be a wonderful help

I was waiting for you to say "bless your hearts."    

[GoldForest]

@Pappystein Give us a screenshot of the PVG settings you use, would you? The whole ascent guidance module, please.

[Rodger]

FWIW I also never use PVG as basically always have issues with it. Mainly overshooting the AP, so the craft ends up massively pitching down, but this then further raises the AP. Also had autostage issues, like a kick stage SRM getting triggered while the upper stage is still mid-burn, but it's simple enough to just not use autostaging. I just find it a lot easier and quicker (no resets) to fly manually.

It seems like the closer to the limit of performance the rocket is, the better PVG will be at flying it, and high TWR craft will have more issues?

[GoldForest]

6 minutes ago, Rodger said:

FWIW I also never use PVG as basically always have issues with it. Mainly overshooting the AP, so the craft ends up massively pitching down, but this then further raises the AP. Also had autostage issues, like a kick stage SRM getting triggered while the upper stage is still mid-burn, but it's simple enough to just not use autostaging. I just find it a lot easier and quicker (no resets) to fly manually.

It seems like the closer to the limit of performance the rocket is, the better PVG will be at flying it, and high TWR craft will have more issues?

Adding a coasting phase will fix the burning down thing, but I find it's not really a problem as long as I have the delta-v to finish the mission. 

Autostage has always been finnicky. I never use it.

As for TWR, I've had massively TWR craft before and they flew fine. A fix is to set it to limit the throttle. 

[Pappystein]

14 hours ago, GoldForest said:

@Pappystein Give us a screenshot of the PVG settings you use, would you? The whole ascent guidance module, please.

Test 1

Test 2 (sorry the Inital Screenshots did not get taken for some reason)

Test 1 is a FTO

Surprisingly (SAturn IB rocket with fins removed, 1973 H-1s in the outer ring and J-2S 2nd stage engine)  not only orbited, but the S-IVB stage had JUST enough fuel to de-orbit

The Titan Launch should have made orbit fine... I am ok with burning upto 100m/s CM fuel to finalize orbit and allow for lower stage disposal.  in this case I used almost all the Mono to orbit the SM.

[ra4nd0m]

1 hour ago, Pappystein said:

Test 2 (sorry the Inital Screenshots did not get taken for some reason)

Sorry for the insert, but with Saturn IB I usually run 100 m/s booster pitch start and pitch rate at 0.3, but with lower Pe of 120 km.
I run KSRSS which I belive is x2.7 and it reaches orbit. Launches both from Baikonur at 51.5 deg (NOT SIB of course but other rockets) and KSC so 28 degs

Perhaps, due to high Pe set it wastes time setting it up instead of burning horizontally to stay. Better to set up specific Ap to reach. PVG starts setting it up after circularization at inputted Pe.

However, PVG sometimes just decides to do a funny and stop working on particular save alltogether, but symptoms of this is weired trajectory and/or being stuck at INITIALIZING.

Sorry, mind is mushy it's 11 pm here.

EDIT: Also here's a nifty trick. Enable autostaging but limit it at second stage, NOT at the ship itself. Sometimes, it works best this way

Edited July 16 by ra4nd0m

[Pappystein]

4 hours ago, ra4nd0m said:

Sorry for the insert, but with Saturn IB I usually run 100 m/s booster pitch start and pitch rate at 0.3, but with lower Pe of 120 km.
I run KSRSS which I belive is x2.7 and it reaches orbit. Launches both from Baikonur at 51.5 deg (NOT SIB of course but other rockets) and KSC so 28 degs

Perhaps, due to high Pe set it wastes time setting it up instead of burning horizontally to stay. Better to set up specific Ap to reach. PVG starts setting it up after circularization at inputted Pe.

However, PVG sometimes just decides to do a funny and stop working on particular save alltogether, but symptoms of this is weired trajectory and/or being stuck at INITIALIZING.

Sorry, mind is mushy it's 11 pm here.

EDIT: Also here's a nifty trick. Enable autostaging but limit it at second stage, NOT at the ship itself. Sometimes, it works best this way

Thanks, the Saturn flew fine with the upgrades (No fins, 1973 H-1s and J-2S) The Titan on the other hand was a huge huge issue.  

 

Also I use Smart parts, because then I don't have to worry about accidentally breaking the Autostaging in flight.

Edited July 17 by Pappystein

[OrbitalManeuvers]

My entry for the "what PVG does for me" video contest. I hope I win a new Broyhill Recliner. 

This is JNSQ, GLV, PVG to 120km, no coast phase (i.e. no illegal 2nd stage relight as banned in 12 countries). The most boring video I've ever done because it's just real-time ascent with  full UI. 5 1/2 minutes of pure PVG ascent goodness. 

Spoiler

 

 

[debaker02]

I've been using KSRSS at 2.7x and PVG on mech jeb and making it to orbit every time at 55 degrees 300k by 120k orbit. I did set the pitch rate per the wiki.

The SM is set it orbit and I do shave off heat shield ablation from the CM (but that is a bogus mechanic so oh well). 

Now if I could just launch a aardv with it....

 

[Pappystein]

2 hours ago, OrbitalManeuvers said:

My entry for the "what PVG does for me" video contest. I hope I win a new Broyhill Recliner. 

This is JNSQ, GLV, PVG to 120km, no coast phase (i.e. no illegal 2nd stage relight as banned in 12 countries). The most boring video I've ever done because it's just real-time ascent with  full UI. 5 1/2 minutes of pure PVG ascent goodness. 

  Hide contents

 

 

Your flight performance almost mirors mine.  Given I was using Hypergolic patch, the variance are small enough to call it "close enough" at least.   So I think PVG did an ok job for me here.   The point of those two runs (the Gemini and the Apollo Saturn IB) was to see if I still had prboblems with PVG...    I did, and I didn't.   I tend to use a lot less mono-propellant with the same exact rocket for Titan getting it in orbit using Classic.   So either I have "the prefect" setup for Classic or something isn't perfect.  I will experiment more in the future.

 

Thank you for taking the time to upload the video

 

1 hour ago, debaker02 said:

I've been using KSRSS at 2.7x and PVG on mech jeb and making it to orbit every time at 55 degrees 300k by 120k orbit. I did set the pitch rate per the wiki.

The SM is set it orbit and I do shave off heat shield ablation from the CM (but that is a bogus mechanic so oh well). 

Now if I could just launch a aardv with it....

 

The main reason I did the Saturn flight, was because that is the rocket setup people have the most problems with ON AVERAGE.   Once you figure out it's particularities or use a good setup in MechJeb, it is perfectly reliable.